The Spirit of Prophecy and the Modern Gift of Prophets

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr.Rich

"HISTORY": his story. Usually, the one who wrote HIS side of the story is the one who wanted people to believe like his does. Problem is, (as an educated hostory nut), I have found that there are two, if not more, sides to the real 'story'.

soo...does this apply to Peter, John, and other "eyewitness" accounts of Jesus in the Bible?

John 14:26 takes care of that problem Pam. Also John 17:17-20.

[Dr. Rich]

Let's put it this way:

Had none of the historical records confirmed anything that was written in the Bible, you can bet there would be little to no believers in this Inspired Book.

So we owe a lot more to historians who recorded down events than we think we do.

We would have never, for example, discovered 457 B.C. had it not been for a scribe writing down on a Papyrus the years the kings reigned.

Good point!

[cheddar]

What about the 7 trumpets of Revelation?

Lysimachus always paints the rosy picture and never talks about clear historical error.

Did the 'seal of God' really happen in the past?

[John317]

Why don't you explain these historical problems:

- the 3 versions of the abomination of desolation

- the I don't know how many versions of Matt. 24

Are you talking about the different interpretations that people have? If so, that is not a problem. At least it is not an historical problem. It sounds like you're talking about a problem of hermeneutics. What kind of problem do you see them as? Could you give some specific examples?

Originally Posted By: cheddar

- the 7 trumpets of Revelation being in the past - and if you say they're not in the past you're going against what Ellen White said and we wouldn't want that.

The six trumpets of Revelation are certainly in the past. We are living today on the very edge of the time when Christ will return.

[John317]

John 14:26 takes care of that problem Pam. Also John 17:17-20.

Those words of Jesus apply to more than simply the 12 original disciples. John 17: 17-20 applies to all Christ's disciples, including the modern ones.

Jesus' promise of John 14: 26 is for all of Christ's genuine followers. Won't the Holy Spirit also teach us all things?

[John317]

What about the 7 trumpets of Revelation?

Lysimachus always paints the rosy picture and never talks about clear historical error.

Did the 'seal of God' really happen in the past?

What "clear historical error"? What do you believe this was?

Do you mean some people's misunderstanding of what Ellen White teaches on this subject?

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

What about the 7 trumpets of Revelation?

Lysimachus always paints the rosy picture and never talks about clear historical error.

Did the 'seal of God' really happen in the past?

What "clear historical error"? What do you believe this was?

Do you mean some people's misunderstanding of what Ellen White teaches on this subject?

The last time I checked the 5th trumpet affected people who don't have the 'seal of God' in their foreheads so how could this possibly have taken place in the past?

[Lysimachus]

The last time I checked the 5th trumpet affected people who don't have the 'seal of God' in their foreheads so how could this possibly have taken place in the past?

It would actually be helpful if you would quote the exact verses you are referring to, and highlight the specific portions you believe contradict our view. Then we can investigate the phrases and their meanings.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

Why don't you explain these historical problems:

- the 3 versions of the abomination of desolation

- the I don't know how many versions of Matt. 24

Are you talking about the different interpretations that people have? If so, that is not a problem. At least it is not an historical problem. It sounds like you're talking about a problem of hermeneutics. What kind of problem do you see them as? Could you give some specific examples?

Originally Posted By: cheddar

- the 7 trumpets of Revelation being in the past - and if you say they're not in the past you're going against what Ellen White said and we wouldn't want that.

The six trumpets of Revelation are certainly in the past. We are living today on the very edge of the time when Christ will return.

John,

If the 7 Trumpets are all in history then how does God announce to the world that His return is immanent? It makes a lot more sense to me (personal opinion) that the 7 Trumpets have not yet occurred, and when they do they will wake up the world to the fact that the 'end is near' and those in the world that want to be saved need to become members of the Kingdom of Heaven.

And if, as you say, the 7 Trumpets have already sounded (as EGW claims. GC-433) then please tell me why we are not already in the New Jerusalem and off of this planet?

EGW says that the 7th Trumpet occurred in 1844 when Jesus began His ministry in the Temple in Heaven. And she uses Rev. 11:19 as proof of this. However, she fails to note the fact that in Rev. 11:15 the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ. This marks the end of probation for ALL humans on earth, when everyone either has the mark of the beast or the seal of the Living God. THIS HAS NOT YET HAPPENED, therefore EGW is wrong about this. And if the 7th Trumpet has not sounded then has the 6th, or the 5th, or any of them? Has there been a world wide war with 200M men under arms? Has Satan been released from the abyss and begun his rule over the world for the last 5 months of the 42 months of the rule of the beast of Rev.13? Have four world wide disasters occurred in sequence that cause the world to rally under the first beast of Rev. 13 which does not come to power until AFTER the 4th Trumpet?

The historic view of the Trumpets does not make any sense when placed against what has actually occurred in the world and what must occur before the transfer of the kingdoms.

[Lysimachus]

John,

If the 7 Trumpets are all in history then how does God announce to the world that His return is immanent? It makes a lot more sense to me (personal opinion) that the 7 Trumpets have not yet occurred, and when they do they will wake up the world to the fact that the 'end is near' and those in the world that want to be saved need to become members of the Kingdom of Heaven.

[cheddar]

So according to your reasoning then the 'seal of God' that goes in our foreheads must be symbolic as well - Wrong!

The seal of God is given to the 144K which is still future.

Historicists see the 5th trumpet as the rise of Islam after the death of Mohammad.

There were no 144K and no seal of the living God 1300 years ago!

You're trying to make the Bible fit your preconceived ideas.

When Elijah was taken up to heavem, Elisha actually saw flaming horses and flaming chariots and flaming angels - I guess it's out of the question that this could ever happen again.

[Lysimachus]

So according to your reasoning then the 'seal of God' that goes in our foreheads must be symbolic as well - Wrong!

The seal of God is given to the 144K which is still future.

Historicists see the 5th trumpet as the rise of Islam after the death of Mohammad.

There were no 144K and no seal of the living God 1300 years ago!

[ClubV12]

In Testimonies Sister White (and I'm likeing "Sister" more and more) mentioned it was very difficult and trying to work for members of the church. Often it comes to nothing as, like a dog, they return to their vomit.

Our emphasis should be on reaching those who have not yet heard the light, those outside the church.

Of course we should exhort, counsel and speak plainly so the issue is clear for those who are in danger within. But realize, this can be a never ending course of action with disappointing results. It ties up the resources that need to be devoted to those who haven't yet been brought to the point of decision. As opposed to those who have seen the light and still question it. There is no doubt where this leads if they persist on this course.

We have many examples of those who question the light, having had great light, right here on this board. It appears, and I pray I am wrong, that the dialog tends to harden their hearts, not soften them.

[cheddar]

The "seal of God" in Revelation 9:4 is not necessarily the same as the "seal of the LIVING God" in Revelation 7:2. Also, Revelation 9 is NOT after Revelation 7.

The seal of God in Rev. 7 is absolutely the same as in Rev. 9 - both are called the same and both go in the forehead, nice try but no cigar.

And all seven trumpets don't even begin until the 144K are sealed, so it doesn't matter if the earth, sea and trees are literal or symbolic - they are not affected until the 144k are sealed.

You will really go to any length to prove your erroneous historical beliefs! The application of the 7 trumpets as time periods throughout history is utter lunacy. A good historian could just as easily apply the trumpets to battles in the civil war or world war II, it wouldn't be that hard - Stop the Madness!

[cheddar]

In Testimonies Sister White (and I'm likeing "Sister" more and more) mentioned it was very difficult and trying to work for members of the church. Often it comes to nothing as, like a dog, they return to their vomit.

Our emphasis should be on reaching those who have not yet heard the light, those outside the church.

Of course we should exhort, counsel and speak plainly so the issue is clear for those who are in danger within. But realize, this can be a never ending course of action with disappointing results. It ties up the resources that need to be devoted to those who haven't yet been brought to the point of decision. As opposed to those who have seen the light and still question it. There is no doubt where this leads if they persist on this course.

We have many examples of those who question the light, having had great light, right here on this board. It appears, and I pray I am wrong, that the dialog tends to harden their hearts, not soften them.

Miz - stop bullying me! LOL

[Lysimachus]

The seal of God in Rev. 7 is absolutely the same as in Rev. 9 - both are called the same and both go in the forehead, nice try but no cigar.

[ClubV12]

cheddar, I have no idea what your personal beliefs or background is. My post stands, as written, for those to whom it may apply. And as counsel to those working to correct mistakes with individuals within the church, it's a debilitating and delicate task. Not all of us are qualified to undertake such work.

[cheddar]

Lighten up Club,

It's slowly starting to sink in that no two people will ever see prophecy the same way and I agree, there are other things which are much more important.

[Kevin H]

In my Revelation class at Atlantic Union College, the professor pointed out that Miller had the seals, trumpets and plagues spread out over time. Mrs. White spread the seals over time but said that trump after trump must sound, vial after vial must be poured out placing the trumptes and the plagues at the end of time. The professor also pointed out other quotes where she placed both the plagues and trumpets in the future. The Typeical Adventist has compromised between Miller and Ellen White, both agreeing on the seals, but we follow Miller's interpetation of the trumpets and Mrs. White's interpetation of the plagues. The professor understood Mrs. White to apply the trumpets to the little time of trouble before the close of probation where we are to live in the country.

I think it was Elder Staples, but the one who came up with the chaism for Revelation says that the chaism connects the trumpets to the plagues, but that some of the leadership in the church has told him that he needed to tweek the information to make the trumpets fit the tradition. (I was talking to him about how we were taught in college, and the way how his chaism seemed to fit what was taught at AUC; he replied "I know what Mrs. White taught and I know that my chiasm standing alone says, but my note is because some in higher authority said that I need to do something to make it fit the traditon.")

The Academy Bible textbook when talking about trumpets had a foot note saying that it might be future and had one of the Ellen White quotes placing it in the future.

[Lysimachus]

In my Revelation class at Atlantic Union College, the professor pointed out that Miller had the seals, trumpets and plagues spread out over time. Mrs. White spread the seals over time but said that trump after trump must sound, vial after vial must be poured out placing the trumptes and the plagues at the end of time. The professor also pointed out other quotes where she placed both the plagues and trumpets in the future. The Typeical Adventist has compromised between Miller and Ellen White, both agreeing on the seals, but we follow Miller's interpetation of the trumpets and Mrs. White's interpetation of the plagues. The professor understood Mrs. White to apply the trumpets to the little time of trouble before the close of probation where we are to live in the country.

I think it was Elder Staples, but the one who came up with the chaism for Revelation says that the chaism connects the trumpets to the plagues, but that some of the leadership in the church has told him that he needed to tweek the information to make the trumpets fit the tradition.

The Academy Bible textbook when talking about trumpets had a foot note saying that it might be future and had one of the Ellen White quotes placing it in the future.

Keep in mind that not everyone agrees that Ellen White's statement "trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded" is referring specifically to the "7 trumpets". Many believe it's just an expression she is using concerning the fact that we must blow the trumpets and give them a certain sound. Not that these trumpets are the same as the "seven trumpets".

We have to remember to not get "hung up" on a phrase from Ellen White that is not clear, and then suddenly become unreasonably dogmatic over it.

[wayfinder]

Ellen White wrote that the seventh trumpet sounded in 1844 when Christ entered into the Most Holy place (see GC page 433), This would mean that the trumpets part of Revelation is over. Accordingly, every event associated with the sounding of each trumpet has been entirely fulfilled.

Revelation 11:15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." 19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened ; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Praise the Lord, the war between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the evil one ended in 1844 and the kingdom of the world was defeated by the kingdom of God. The great tribulation is behind us and we have only to wait for our Savior to arrive.

GC page 266-7: The persecution of the church did not continue throughout the entire period of the 1260 years. God in mercy to His people cut short the time of their fiery trial. In foretelling the "great tribulation" to befall the church, the Savior said: " Except those daysic should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:22.

(underline mine)

Ellen White states that Matthew 24:22 was fulfilled in 1797 and 1/2 and that the great tribulation to befall the church was ended (since there was a nation and never will be again).

This is ironclad assurance, or am I mistaken?

[Lysimachus]

Ellen White wrote that the seventh trumpet sounded in 1844 when Christ entered into the Most Holy place (see GC page 433), This would mean that the trumpets part of Revelation is over. Accordingly, every event associated with the sounding of each trumpet has been entirely fulfilled.

Revelation 11:15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." 19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened ; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Praise the Lord, the war between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the evil one ended in 1844 and the kingdom of the world was defeated by the kingdom of God. The great tribulation is behind us and we have only to wait for our Savior to arrive.

GC page 266-7: The persecution of the church did not continue throughout the entire period of the 1260 years. God in mercy to His people cut short the time of their fiery trial. In foretelling the "great tribulation" to befall the church, the Savior said: " Except those daysic should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:22.

(underline mine)

Ellen White states that Matthew 24:22 was fulfilled in 1797 and 1/2 and that the great tribulation to befall the church was ended (since there was a nation and never will be again).

This is ironclad assurance, or am I mistaken?

I don't have time to elaborate right now as I have a lot on my plate, but you are saying the above in a strange way, almost as if you are ignoring all her statements about the future Great Tribulation. You seem to forget that there are 2 Great Tribulations. One during the Beasts reign before its deadly wound, and another after its deadly wound has healed.

You need to listen to Pastor Stephen Bohr's "Matthew 24" series, where he carefully and exegetically breaks down Matthew 24, and reveals when it is referring to the Great Tribulation during the Dark Ages, and when it is referring to the Great Tribulation to yet come.

I also do not see where Ellen White is saying that the 7th trumpet sounded in 1844. She quotes Revelation 11:19, but does not quote Revelation 11:15.

Frank Hardy has a good paper on this:

What Is the Context for Revelation 11:19?

[wayfinder]

Quote:

I also do not see where Ellen White is saying that the 7th trumpet sounded in 1844. She quotes Revelation 11:19, but does not quote Revelation 11:15

So if I understand you correctly, Ellen White said that Revelation 11:19 was fulfilled on October 22, 1844 and that the "two wittnesses" section was fulfilled during the French revelolution, but verses 15-18 will be fulfilled in the future?

As I read Revelation 11:15-19 I see that all the elements are connected with the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

Secondly, When Ellen White quotes Matthew 24:22 she leaves out verse 21. Both verses are definately used together because verse 22 begans with "And". Verse 21 (Jesus says) "never shall be again". Ellen White tells us that the great tribulation such as never was and never will be again, ended in 1797.

[Lysimachus]

So if I understand you correctly, Ellen White said that Revelation 11:19 was fulfilled on October 22, 1844 and that the "two wittnesses" section was fulfilled during the French revelolution, but verses 15-18 will be fulfilled in the future?

As I read Revelation 11:15-19 I see that all the elements are connected with the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

Secondly, When Ellen White quotes Matthew 24:22 she leaves out verse 21. Both verses are definately used together because verse 22 begans with "And". Verse 21 (Jesus says) "never shall be again". Ellen White tells us that the great tribulation such as never was and never will be again, ended in 1797.

So what is your opinion? Do you believe Ellen White?

What point are you getting at?

Also, you keep saying 1797, when it's 1798.

I do hope you realize that she mentions about a great tribulation to come upon the world in hundreds of places in her writings--all future. You do realize this right?

[Lysimachus]

It may be that Revelation 11:19 is just pointing "backward" again to the beginning of the judgment, making a "thematic" statement that the door was opened. But not necessarily stating that the 7th trumpet was sounded in 1844? In other words, John is famous for backing up and simply adding more details. Revelation 11:19 seems to be going back, and making a point about the door that was opened for judgment, and then later at the end of that judgment, there was lightenings, voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Not necessarily all commencing at once. But just making a large sweep.