Lysimachus Posted August 2, 2011 Author Posted August 2, 2011 What a waste of your time to write a book about this Musicman. WHAT A WASTE OF YOUR TIME!!!! Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Musicman1228 Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 [Yesterday, John317 made a comment about Dr. Rich. The problem is John317 has banned Dr. Rich from defending or replying to this comment all because John317's admitted inability to change his foundational theological understanding. Isn't this talking about someone behind his back? Is this what Jesus would do? ] Your statement here is full of half-truths, MM. Dr. Rich was banned again for again violating the rules of the Forum and for not abiding by the agreement that you and he and Wayfinder made with me when you were allowed on the Forum. I find it amazing that even after both of you have been banned before, you still seem to think we're not serious about the agreement. And this is after Dr. Rich wrote to me the other day and denied that he even made any agreement! The agreement was and is that you and he and Wayfinder will not hijack the public discussions at every opportunity you have of attacking Paul and the NT, the character and writings of Ellen White, and the SDA Church. Don't you feel you can abide by that agreement? I am abiding by it, John, which is why I made my comment yesterday about it. I will leave it to you as moderator to tell me when I can comment and when I can't, as I don't want to violate your idea about what is appropriate. Quote
Guest Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 I am abiding by it, John, which is why I made my comment yesterday about it. I will leave it to you as moderator to tell me when I can comment and when I can't, as I don't want to violate your idea about what is appropriate. I remember when John had a special thread set up just so you guys could talk about all that nonsense. But you guys never would come in there and post. Quote
Guest Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 What a waste of your time to write a book about this Musicman. WHAT A WASTE OF YOUR TIME!!!! He wasted it alright. I have a copy of it to prove it. No offence Musicman, I do appreciate you sending me a copy just the same. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 I am abiding by it, John, which is why I made my comment yesterday about it. I will leave it to you as moderator to tell me when I can comment and when I can't, as I don't want to violate your idea about what is appropriate. I remember when John had a special thread set up just so you guys could talk about all that nonsense. But you guys never would come in there and post. I did post there, and I have also started my own threads. Thank you for your critical review of the book; at least you read it all the way through from cover to cover, at least I hope you did. No one, least of all me, has ever said you have to believe anything I say or have written. The point is that now IF we are correct in what we have said and written you have been made aware of it and have something upon with to make a decision. (I never said we were correct in our belief, I only said IF). Quote
Musicman1228 Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 By the way, no search for truth is ever a waste of time for anyone. Quote
ClubV12 Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 Don't have to read the book, been to the web site, ONCE. That was enough for me, no "if" about it, you guys are completely deluded on your theology. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 2, 2011 Moderators Posted August 2, 2011 I am abiding by it, John, which is why I made my comment yesterday about it. I will leave it to you as moderator to tell me when I can comment and when I can't, as I don't want to violate your idea about what is appropriate. MM, I'm the same person that you met at dinner about two years ago now. I haven't changed. I want you to know that these standards are not due to my own personal feelings about you as a person. Also, I think it's important for you to realize that it's not merely my own "opinion" or ideas that are determining the standards here on the Forum, but I've been in touch with Stan and Gail about them also. I'm not going to put the "blame" on them, but what I am saying is that I firmly believe my decisions are supported by the Administrators. As Stan has told you, you and Wayfinder and Dr. Rich (when he returns) could have a private thread in which we can discuss the issues that interest you in special ways. I was thinking that at some time we could even discuss the book you wrote. My restrictions on your bringing up these topics on the public threads whenever you feel like it have nothing whatever to do with my wish to avoid a discussion of those issues. You may not believe that, but I'm sure that Wayfinder knows this is true on the basis of my personal discussions with him over dinner. Please do not think-- as I believe you have, at times-- that my willingness to discuss these issues mean that I have doubts about the rightness of my own positions regarding SDA doctrines and the mission and ministry of Ellen G. White. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Guest Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 (I never said we were correct in our belief, I only said IF). IF is a pretty risky place to hang your absolutes and beliefs, when it comes to religion. A plain "thus saith the Lord" is much much better. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 2, 2011 Moderators Posted August 2, 2011 By the way, no search for truth is ever a waste of time for anyone. One thing I find in conflict with your search for truth is that you would reject 2/3 of the NT and the writings of Ellen White, but at the same time you would be highly influenced by books written by people who don't even believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. What spirit do you think is influencing those people who talk against Paul and the rest of the NT? Do you seriously believe it's the Holy Spirit who tells an unbeliever that the Devil inspired Peter at Pentecost and Paul on the road to Damascus? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 2, 2011 Moderators Posted August 2, 2011 (I never said we were correct in our belief, I only said IF). I'm wondering why in your book you didn't examine both sides of the issues. In other words, why didn't you consider the objections to your thesis? If you had, it would have helped lend some credence to your claim the the book was a serious seeking after truth. The quality of the scholarship in the book is embarrasingly deficient. It doesn't come even close to showing a mastery of the issues and of the literature involved in a discussion of the topic. I think you should have given the manuscript to a committee of scholars for them to go over it and offer their criticisms before you submitted it for publication. It's obvious in a number of ways that you didn't do this. While the book does mention that you almost wish your thesis was incorrect, you also make the claim that the evidence clearly shows Paul is at odds with the teaching of Christ and that they cannot both be inspired of God. I don't think the reader of your book comes away with the impression that you're the least bit uncertain of your conclusions. Perhaps you are personally doubtful, but that aspect doesn't come across at all in the book. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 2, 2011 Moderators Posted August 2, 2011 MM, Have you seen the online NT text of Acts 2: 3? http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/passage.aspx?q=Acts+2%3A+3&t=nas Look for "glw'ssai {N-NPF}" (Noun, nominative plural feminine) Please let me know when you see it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Musicman1228 Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 John, I am not in the least uncertain about my understanding about either Paul or EGW, but I know there are lots of SDA's that will be uncertain when this information comes to them, so I am constantly aware of this and try to place myself in their shoes by remembering what I felt like when I first realized there were problems with both EGW (first) and Paul (second). Rick and I wrote the book The Spirit of the Church because we both are completely sure that the evidence supports the conclusions. It is not simply one thing alone that proves the point but the combination of things that demonstrate that there are problems in Christianity that cannot be explained away with a simple 'Thus Sayeth the Lord'. Trust me, if we were trying to win a popularity contest we would not have written THIS book. Yet both of us felt called (as we do today) to expose a deception so insidious that it is almost beyond belief; and in fact it is beyond belief for many people because it is so far afield from what they KNOW to be true. Whatever is the personal outcome of our doing this we have done and are now doing what God has called us to do, so we will therefore not be held accountable for those that choose to believe a lie as if it is the truth. Jesus showed the error in the thinking of the leadership of Israel and they hated Him for it, because it exposed their evil thoughts and practices. Jesus did not come to expose the evil in the nations surrounding Israel, they had done that well enough on their own. Jesus showed the leadership of the Kingdom of Heaven that it was their fault that Israel had not completed the task for which God had set them up as His nation after He brought them out of captivity in Egypt. Today it is the Bondservants of Jesus Christ that are doing the same thing that He did, that is exposing the evil inside the Kingdom of Heaven today. That evil is not the people who are sound asleep waiting for second coming and who are innocent of nothing more than believing something that isn't true as if it is true. The evil comes when the church says that they have all the truth that is needed for salvation and attempt to keep others from having the opportunity to judge for themselves what is true. Quote
ClubV12 Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 "I first realized there were problems with both EGW (first) and Paul (second)." Interesting, that is how Sister White describes the fall, first they question the Testimonies... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 3, 2011 Moderators Posted August 3, 2011 MM, I've noticed you almost never answer or respond directly to my questions or observations. Why is this? Are you aware of it? Go back to my last few posts and try to answer or respond directly to what I have said or asked. It would take you only a few minutes to look at the text online of Acts 2: 3. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Musicman1228 Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 "I first realized there were problems with both EGW (first) and Paul (second)." Interesting, that is how Sister White describes the fall, first they question the Testimonies... Of course I will question the testimony on ANYONE other that Jesus Christ. Ellen White's 'testimonies' ARE NOT the testimonies of Jesus Christ as defined in Rev. 12:17. Many in the SDA church believe this to be true but it is not. Therefore, the more important question might be "Why don't you question the testimony of anyone other than Jesus Christ?" This makes a lot more sense to me than your questioning me. Quote
Lysimachus Posted August 4, 2011 Author Posted August 4, 2011 Of course I will question the testimony on ANYONE other that Jesus Christ. Ellen White's 'testimonies' ARE NOT the testimonies of Jesus Christ as defined in Rev. 12:17. Many in the SDA church believe this to be true but it is not. Therefore, the more important question might be "Why don't you question the testimony of anyone other than Jesus Christ?" This makes a lot more sense to me than your questioning me. Oh how you are going to croak when you discover that Ellen White was a true prophet, and one of the greatest that has ever lived on the face of the earth. I will be praying earnestly for you that you will open up your heart and mind and see the light. I have spent the last 15 years or so reading every single criticism on Ellen White. And after thorough analysis, I have discovered that every single criticism has a solid and satisfactory answer to them. If one's heart is right, they will get down to the bottom of these facts, and I believe they will discover the same as I have. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Musicman1228 Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 MM, I've noticed you almost never answer or respond directly to my questions or observations. Why is this? Are you aware of it? Go back to my last few posts and try to answer or respond directly to what I have said or asked. It would take you only a few minutes to look at the text online of Acts 2: 3. John, I have a limited amount of time that I can 'waste' on this forum trying to convince people of something that while secure in my own mind and heart is of little or no value to them, and won't change their minds regardless of what I say. I (me, myself) choose what I will respond to on that basis alone; and since you have told me in no uncertain terms that nothing that I present will move you from your current positions on ANYTHING we have been discussing I see little value in trying to do so. Therefore, when I respond to something you have said it is not for the purpose of convincing you of the validity of my position but merely to show why it works for me. This is a simple 'take it or leave it' proposition. If through the way you asked the questions or made your comments I received the impression that you were truly interested in learning something new that is based on my experience and understanding then I would answer you directly and with some detail. But as it is this seems of little value to you, therefore it is of little value to me to spend time better used for other endeavors that may in the long run prove more worthy of the effort. That being said I will (as time permits) go back and look at your question and see what I can do. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 Of course I will question the testimony on ANYONE other that Jesus Christ. Ellen White's 'testimonies' ARE NOT the testimonies of Jesus Christ as defined in Rev. 12:17. Many in the SDA church believe this to be true but it is not. Therefore, the more important question might be "Why don't you question the testimony of anyone other than Jesus Christ?" This makes a lot more sense to me than your questioning me. Oh how you are going to croak when you discover that Ellen White was a true prophet, and one of the greatest that has ever lived on the face of the earth. I will be praying earnestly for you that you will open up your heart and mind and see the light. I have spent the last 15 years or so reading every single criticism on Ellen White. And after thorough analysis, I have discovered that every single criticism has a solid and satisfactory answer to them. If one's heart is right, they will get down to the bottom of these facts, and I believe they will discover the same as I have. Congratulations, I am happy for you. However, you are making an assumption that could prove your downfall. You see, I have already been where you are, and after spending at least the same amount of time you have in earnest study I have come to exactly the opposite conclusion about Aunt Ellen. You 'assume' that you are correct in your assessment, and so do I. But I am going to make an assessment based solely on logic. Since I am basing my eternity ONLY on the words of Jesus Christ and His teaching that HE gave to HIS own eyewitness disciples what I believe is (I assume) secure-it's hard to go wrong when you base your belief on what the Son of God says. On the other hand you say you believe in Jesus Christ but you also hold that what EGW says as equal or nearly so to what Jesus says, and thus you are basing your eternity on the words of a human being that you feel is inspired by God. In this it is remotely possible that you just might be wrong. Your belief system risks more than mine. With my belief system there is no risk that the words of Jesus can be compromised. With yours there is always the risk that something that EGW said might not have been 'inspired' by God but was just a bad meal. The logic is that to minimize risk it's better to go only with the Son of God. Quote
Lysimachus Posted August 4, 2011 Author Posted August 4, 2011 My belief is that the Son of God also speaks through His prophets. So everything spoken in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy IS the Son of God speaking. It's that simple. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
wayfinder Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 Revelation 2:2'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; This is the Son of God speaking to John. It is clear from this text that there are evil men, who call themselves apostles. Have you put any self proclaimed apostle, from the time of the writing of Revelation until now, to the test? If so what did you use as you unquestionable standard by which you tested them? This commendation is to those who tested and found these to be false. If you say, "it is in the Bible it is true", then show me clear and solid evidence that the Bible was given to us with God's stamp of authority, that the Bible is His words cover to cover to cover, "Old and New Testiments". Keep in mind the very high cost of blasphemy. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 My belief is that the Son of God also speaks through His prophets. So everything spoken in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy IS the Son of God speaking. It's that simple. But you COULD POSSIBLY be wrong. I can't, because the words of Jesus stand on their own. It is my own personal understanding that the Bible contains the words of God but the Bible in total is not the words of God from cover to cover. So as I said, I'm happy that you are so confident in your salvation based on the information you are comfortable with. I don't have that same confidence. If you are interested I will be happy to tell you why I believe as I do, but I am not going to force my opinions on anyone that is not interested. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 4, 2011 Moderators Posted August 4, 2011 ...Ellen White's 'testimonies' ARE NOT the testimonies of Jesus Christ as defined in Rev. 12:17. Many in the SDA church believe this to be true but it is not. Therefore, the more important question might be "Why don't you question the testimony of anyone other than Jesus Christ?" How do you know that Ellen White's Testimonies are not the Testimonies of Jesus? I did question them. I haven't always believed them to be inspired by Christ. Why do you say that "many in the SDA church believe" they are the testimonies of Jesus? The SDA Church believes they are, not just many in the SDA church. It's the official position of the church and without question it is the firm belief of most of its members. Of course I realize you are working hard to change that through your book and the radio program, etc. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 4, 2011 Moderators Posted August 4, 2011 It would take you only a few minutes to look at the text online of Acts 2: 3. Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 I have a limited amount of time that I can 'waste' on this forum trying to convince people of something that while secure in my own mind and heart is of little or no value to them, and won't change their minds regardless of what I say. I would think that as a writer who is concerned with telling the truth to his readers, you would want to take about 3 minutes to look up Acts 2: 3 to see if what you wrote in your book is true. You base an important belief on your understanding of Acts 2: 3. How could that possibly be a waste of time? Do you have a Greek Bible, or a Greek-English Interlear? I provided a link to the one online which you can easily see. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Musicman1228 Posted August 5, 2011 Posted August 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 ...Ellen White's 'testimonies' ARE NOT the testimonies of Jesus Christ as defined in Rev. 12:17. Many in the SDA church believe this to be true but it is not. Therefore, the more important question might be "Why don't you question the testimony of anyone other than Jesus Christ?" How do you know that Ellen White's Testimonies are not the Testimonies of Jesus? I did question them. I haven't always believed them to be inspired by Christ. Why do you say that "many in the SDA church believe" they are the testimonies of Jesus? The SDA Church believes they are, not just many in the SDA church. It's the official position of the church and without question it is the firm belief of most of its members. Of course I realize you are working hard to change that through your book and the radio program, etc. Now, how do I know that the Testimonies of EGW are not the Testimony of Jesus? Simple; Jesus did not say that His testimony was given by anyone other than Himself. Please read again Rev. 12:17. The last phrase in that verse does not say 'the testimony of Jesus as given by Ellen White'; it stops right after 'Jesus'. If you are without an agenda then you will be able to see this. If you have an agenda that promotes EGW and her Testimonies then you will say that she speaks for Jesus. I do not believe she does, and you can find nowhere in the words of Jesus in which He says that a latter day prophet will come along and speak for Him. However, He does give warning about end time FALSE apostles and prophets that will claim they have been sent by Jesus but are deceivers. Yes, John, the SDA church 'now' does include the belief in the 'Testimonies of EGW' as part of the 28 Fundamentals of the church. However, back when I was baptized this was not the case; EGW was not a test of faith of the SDA church 50 years ago, so I am 'grandfathered' in and cannot be excommunicated (to use an appropriate RCC term) because I don't slavishly follow her teachings. And speaking of 'excommunication' there is a terrific article on Spectrum about this very subject which I think you will find fascinating: Kick 2 http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2011/07/29/get-out-my-church Quote
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