Questions?

[John317]

"This is a broad generalization. What do you have in mind, specifically, if anything? Are you referring to a particular post or person?"

The name-calling has been deleted.

But what I had reference to is the lying and the false accusations, such as your accastion that Ellen White claimed she alone discovered the Investigative Judgment. This is the kind of thing we were talking about.

[John317]

Here is one John317 .... and if you are willing to look you can find the same from this poster several times on recent threads of mine

....I can post more from the same for you if you like

And you may want to review a number of similar responses by the person called Lysimachus as an example

What do you think?

What you and others should do is send me PM when you believe the rules have have violated. I can't possibly see every post.

But again, I was referring to people making false accusations without even attempting to support it with valid evidence.

I've already given the example that you did yesterday when you claimed Ellen White said she alone had discovered the Investigative Judgment.

That is different from the examples you are now showing me.

[Truth Files]

I've already given the example that you did yesterday when you claimed Ellen White said she alone had discovered the Investigative Judgment.

>But she confirmed and further developed the concept put forth by her associates with a claimed vision that she had, and then proceeded to present it as her own

>So I consider the investigative judgment idea to be from EGW .... the finisher of the doctrine .... and this is what I am always told by the SDA's that I know

..... and I really am not bothered by those who troll and snipe at my postings .... something that I do not practice

>But, when those who do come my way I will expose their behavior and rebuke them if necessary and will eventually ignore them if they continue

.... and you have a number of them on this forum .... and they are SDAs

[Lysimachus]

It is clear Truth Files that you are not here to investigate Bible truth, or find out what we believe. You're just here to see how long you can get away with spamming us with lies about Ellen White and shoot your scatter-shot gun texts ( without providing us any textual or contextual commentary for your interpretations of them) before getting banned. You exercise no spirit of inquiry, to maybe find out from those who know FAR more about Adventism than you do to see if your accusations are accurate. Instead, you're just determined to line us all up and shoot us down with your machine-gun made up of rubber bullets. Your spirit of non-inquiry, or to learn anything whatsoever, is rather telling concerning your vitriolic hatred toward Adventism.

[John317]

>But she confirmed and further developed the concept put forth by her associates with a claimed vision that she had, and then proceeded to present it as her own

But that is not what you said.

Of course she believed it and said that she had visions that confirmed it, but the point is that the doctrine came out of Bible study.

She didn't present the doctrine as her own. That is false. She plainly taught that the doctrine is based on the Scriptures, and she gives many verses to support the teaching.

The doctrine was actually well developed on the basis of the Bible before Ellen White wrote about it.

You should read the article, The Sanctuary, in the Day-Star Extra, 1846, written by O.R. L. Crosier. You can access it online.

[Truth Files]

"But that is not what you said"

I think you are being unfair with your evaluation .... you now know what I meant .... and you also know that I understand how the idea was hatched

[John317]

>So I consider the investigative judgment idea to be from EGW .... the finisher of the doctrine .... and this is what I am always told by the SDA's that I know

But you are wrong to claim that the IJ idea is from Ellen White when it can be proved otherwise. Ellen White did not write about the IJ until after it had been developed through Bible study and articles. AGain, see the article, Sanctuary, by O.R.L. Crosier, in the Day-Star Extra, 1846. For you to claim it is Ellen White's idea even after its being pointed out to you that history does not support the claim, is an outright lie.

You may consider it as coming from Ellen White and not from the Bible, but that is irrelevent. The fact is that it can be shown to have been developed independently of Ellen White. No one, however, is denying that Ellen White said that she had visions from God which supported the doctrine. That is not in question. You said she claimed she alone "discovered" the doctrine. This is absolutely false.

Can you see how those are two totally different things?

[John317]

"But that is not what you said"

I think you are being unfair with your evaluation .... you now know what I meant .... and you also know that I understand how the idea was hatched

Did you say, "Ellen White claimed that she alone discovered the Investigative Judgment"?

Did Ellen White ever make such a statement or claim? If so, now is the time to post it here.

Frankly, you don't come across as someone who understands the history of the SDA church or the Investigative Judgment enough to talk about it yet. You should be studying the history of the church and the doctrine first before you make your claims about what Ellen White did or did not say about it.

[Truth Files]

Did EGW claim a vision to confirm the idea?

I think so

And is is common knowledge across the board that she is the one who has given the SDA the doctrine of the investigative judgment

I could ask most any SDA and would get the same answer

[John317]

Did EGW claim a vision to confirm the idea?

Did you say that Ellen White claimed she had a vision that supported the Investigative Judgment? Was this what you said?

Did you not say, "Ellen White claimed that she alone discovered the Investigative Judgment"?

Do you see any difference between those two statements? Do they mean the same thing?

[ClubV12]

An intention to deceive is what constitutes falsehood. By a glance of the eye, a motion of the hand, an expression of the countenance, a falsehood may be told as effectually as by words. All intentional overstatement, every hint or insinuation calculated to convey an erroneous or exaggerated impression, even the statement of facts in such a manner as to mislead, is falsehood. {FLB 69.5}

White, E. G. (1958; 2002). The Faith I Live By (69). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[John317]

I could ask most any SDA and would get the same answer

I doubt that but let's say you're right, that 100% of the SDAs say you are right. Would that make it true? Let's suppose everyone told you that the moon is made of cheese. Does that mean it is true?

Do you ever do research to find out the truth, Truth Files? Or do you merely repeat what some people tell you?

Your posts make it appear that you do the latter pretty much.

[John317]

And is is common knowledge across the board that she is the one who has given the SDA the doctrine of the investigative judgment

Common knowledge, you say? That is like people saying that "everyone knows it" when you can't point out a single person who really knows it.

Give your reference for this. Give a valid historical reference. Quote someone who is known to be an authority on the history of SDA doctrine and on the history of the church.

[John317]

Please answer two questions for me:

1) What was the last book you read on the history of the SDA church? Or on the development of SDA theology?

2) Have you ever read the article, The Sanctuary, by O.R. L. Crosier, in the Day-Star Extra, 1846? (It is available online.)

This article was written before Ellen White wrote on the Investigative Judgment. It is an article that gives the Bible evidence for a literal heavenly sanctuary where Christ ministers as our High Priest.

[Truth Files]

"Give your reference for this. Give a valid historical reference. Quote someone who is known to be an authority on the history of SDA doctrine and on the history of the church."

>Why would I do this when I do not consider the SDA to be an authority on anything

>I do not follow religious organizations like you do

>What you ask is something for you to do .... not I

[Lysimachus]

Truth Files,

Do what John317 told you to do, and go read The Sanctuary, in the Day-Star Extra, 1846, written by O.R. L. Crosier. :)

[John317]

"Give your reference for this. Give a valid historical reference. Quote someone who is known to be an authority on the history of SDA doctrine and on the history of the church."

>Why would I do this when I do not consider the SDA to be an authority on anything

>I do not follow religious organizations like you do

>What you ask is something for you to do .... not I

I'm asking you to support what you say with valid evidence and not merely make claims and assertions.

Are you saying you won't do this but that you will continue to make unfair and inaccurate accusations like you have so far?

As in:

Quote:

(1) Ellen White said she alone discovered the Investigative Judgment and (2) that she predicted (on the basis of visions) that no more people on earth would be saved.

[John317]

Explain to me why I should spend time answering your questions when you have already made it clear (at least to me, up to this point) that you have no intention of paying attention to what any SDA says or thinks?

I don't see any evidence that you are sincere and want to learn anything. You already said that you are here to encourage SDAs to leave the church. You also give every evidence of not being too concerned with truthfulness and accuracy when it comes to the SDA church, its history, or its doctrines.

[teresaq]

Thanks TF for bringing this here. I appreciate the opportunity to pray and study more for answers, as well as the opportunity to seek the Lord to make me more Christlike instead of irritated at such stuff. I don't know that I will answer to your satisfaction and some of my answers will probably have been already stated, but here goes.

Questions from a former SDA member:

Why was there no SDA religion before 1844?

Why was there no teaching of the "investigative judgment" before 1844?

Why isn't this doctrine found in the Word of God?

Why do SDAs only recognize Ellen G. White as a prophetess?

According to the Bible, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son"

According to the Lord's Word, there are no prophets today, nor have there been since the book of Revelation was completed in A.D. 96 and thereby completing the Bible [Revelation 22:18-19]

The Word of God is our final and only authority! Jesus never told us to look for another messenger or prophet. If what SDAs teach is true concerning Ellen G. White, then surely the Word of God would have foretold of the coming of such a great prophetess, who would reveal new doctrines.

To the contrary, the Bible says nothing of the such. It is utterly disturbing that the entire SDA religion was formed out of a major embarrassment, when William Miller set a date for Christ to return, and then Christ did not return. And why did all of those Millerites descent, suddenly starting a whole different religion? The entire matter is disturbing to say the least.

If what SDAs teach is true, then what about all of the believers who died between the cross of Christ, and the beginning of the investigative judgment of 1844? If Christ needed to complete His work of redemption, then why did He wait until 1844?

And here's something to really consider, the year 1844 wasn't set by Ellen G. White, it was set by Miller. If Ellen G. White was such an inspired prophetess, why didn't God give her the revelation of the year 1844?

Why would God give it to Miller? The SDA religion was formed by a group of sinfully proud people who could not accept the fact that they had been hoodwinked by a misguided Miller. One is never to set a date for the Lord's return.

The Bible plainly teaches that no one can know the time. The foolish people in 1844, who followed a man, instead of God's Word, were horribly vexed when Miller's prophecy failed to come true. Think about it .... these people had sold their homes, quit there jobs, and given away all earthly possessions.

How does the SDA member account for and answer these questions today?

Why was there no SDA church before 1844?

That seems like a ridiculous question to me. Its like asking why there was no Jewish religion before such-and-such date, or why your particular denomination, or any denomination, was not in existance before ----date.

If you're interested, I will respond to the rest later.

[John317]

Questions from a former SDA member:

Why was there no SDA religion before 1844?

I'm going to go through all of your questions one by one, as time permits. I would like to see your considered, thoughtful responses.

First of all, there was no "SDA religion" in 1844. They were adventists in the sense that they looked for Christ's coming in glory, but beyond that, they weren't "Adventists." Neither were they Sabbath-keepers. The SDA church wasn't established until 1861-1863.

If by "SDA religion" you have reference to the the seventh day Sabbath and the Advent of Christ, the answer is that there certainly was an "SDA religion" before 1844. The early church looked for Christ's return and also obeyed the fourth commandment of the decalogue. They didn't need the official name "Seventh-day Adventist" in order to have those same characteristics that we have today.

I will add more to this answer later on. There's a very good, even a prophetic, reason for the SDA church to be raised up by God at this time in history.

[John317]

Questions from a former SDA member:

Why was there no teaching of the "investigative judgment" before 1844?

Why isn't this doctrine found in the Word of God?

I am wondering why someone that had been a member of the SDA church would ask such questions, because if an SDA has been studying and active in the church and Sabbath School classes, he would know most of the information you are asking about. But then it is true that, like any church, we do have members who don't study and don't take an active role in the church or the Sabbath School classes. There's also the fact that people forget what they don't use. Knowledge is kind of like a muscle that way-- if we don't use it, we lose it.

There are also people who become a church member but then soon leave, before they have had a chance to study these things. But if they studied very well before baptism and joining the church, they should have at least some understanding of the answers to your questions.

In any case, the fact that someone might ask those questions doesn't mean that there aren't very good, biblical answers.

I think your question this time is better than previous one, although in fact they are both closely related.

There was no message about the Investigative Judgment before 1844 for the same reason that Noah did not preach until God told Him to build the ark.

What do I mean? I mean that there is such a thing as "present truth." We don't preach today the message that Noah preached, because his message was "present truth" for his day, not for ours. Neither do we preach the message of John the Baptist, and for the same reason, although it was present truth for the people living just before Christ began His public ministry.

And similarly, the message concerning the Investigative Judgment was not for Noah's day, nor was it for any age until a relatively short time before Christ's return for His church. It is a message of Judgment, and the Judgment that it refers to is in session right now. It's the judgment spoken of in Daniel 7: 9-13, 26 and in Rev. 14: 7.

Notice that Rev. 14: 7 is not talking about a future judgment, as in the return of Christ. Rather, both Daniel 7 and Revelation 14 speak of a judgment that takes place prior to the second coming of Christ. Notice that Rev. 14: 7 is one of three messages that are to be proclaimed throughout all the world. They contain a warning against receiving the mark of the beast.

Also notice that the very next event after the proclamation of these messages is the second advent of our Lord. Compare Rev. 14: 7 and 14:14.

The Investigative Judgment is also referred to in Rev. 11: 18 and 19. "The time of the dead, that they should be judged," a verse that is just before verse 19, which clearly refers to judgment. This of course is before the second coming.

This doctrine is indeed found in the Word of God, but no one can see it if they don't want to see it. It's the same with any other Bible truth: God does not force us to see what we don't want to see. The truth is there, but we have to dig for it as men dig for silver and gold. When we do that prayerfully, seeking to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and being willing to give up everything for the truth, we will see it.

There are many good books and articles written which prove that the Investigative Judgment is taught in the Bible, but they won't do anyone any good if people aren't willing to study and read them. If your attitude is, "Well, I know those SDAs are all wrong and that the Investigative Judgment is a lie, so I won't study it," then of course you won't ever see it. That's the same with people who continue to say that Christ never existed and that the Bible is all a lie. Unless they really seek for the truth and want to understand it, they will never stop believing that the Bible is a lie.

[Guest]

That's true...

[John317]

Questions from a former SDA member:

Why do SDAs only recognize Ellen G. White as a prophetess?

Your question can be understood in two ways:

1) Why do only SDAs acknowledge Ellen White to be a prophetess?

2) Why do SDAs only recognize Ellen White as a prophetess?

#2 implies that Ellen White should be recognized as more than a prophetess.

I'm assuming that you intended to ask question #1.

That is somewhat like non-Christian attempting to discredit Christ by asking, "Why do only Christians recognize Christ as the Messiah?"

What is the answer to this question?

The only correct answer is that once a person recognizes Christ as the Messiah, they become a Christian. So it should not be surprising that only Christians recongize Christ as the Messiah.

Similarly, if someone really acknowledges Ellen White as a prophetess, and if they study and believe what she wrote, will they not become a Seventh-day Adventist?

(I realize there are some who claim to believe she was a true prophet and yet leave the church for various reasons; but by and large, people who believe she is a prophet become SDAs and choose to remain in the church.)

I can't imagine someone realizing Ellen White was a genuine prophet, and understanding what she wrote, but then deciding to become Catholic or Baptist, etc.

Your question also implies that since only SDAs acknowledge Ellen White to be a true prophet, she must be a false prophet since a true prophet would be accepted by the whole Christian Church and not simply by a relatively small denomination.

But that conclusion is based on false premises. It assumes that all Christians recognize truth when they see it, and it assumes that if only a comparatively small number of Christians believe something, it must be false. We know that both these ideas are wrong. Truth is not based on popularity nor is it established by the numbers of people who believe it.

If we went by the numbers, we would have to agree that the Roman Catholic doctrines of the Mass and of prayers to the saints, to say nothing of Sunday worship, are all true. But if we go by the Bible, we know that those are doctrines of devils.

[Lysimachus]

That's true...

You are a man of few words.

[teresaq]

Questions from a former SDA member:

Why was there no SDA religion before 1844?

Why was there no teaching of the "investigative judgment" before 1844?

Why isn't this doctrine found in the Word of God?

Short answer: I believe this doctrine is found in the word of God scattered throughout as are the prophecies of Jesus birth, life and mission, and death. I believe those references are as vague to many as the references to an "IJ" are to you. BTW, I can understand your hesitancy to believe it. I didn't understand it for years, in fact I would like to understand it better. I have thought of starting a topic on that, but most likely on a certain forum where the members are able to interact more with less insulting. In addition there are many SDAs who do not accept the idea of an "IJ" either.

Let's start with the feasts set up at Sinai, OK? First, Let me ask for what purpose do you believe God would set up those ceremonies?

I hope you are allowed to answer before someone "tells" you why. :)