Questions?

[John317]

>But this does not mean that the Lord's conditional edicts are false prophecies

.... the projections of the false prophet never materialize because they are not speaking truth .... their alleged visions and prophecies [predictions] are not inspired by the Lord

OK, sure, but the point I am making is that just because a prophecy does not come true as you expect it to doesn't mean the prophet was false. In other words, inspired prophecies may not come true.

For instance, Jonah is not a false prophet, even though his prophecy did not come true. Jonah is not alone.

[John317]

I'd like to suggest that you research the writings and the life and ministry of Ellen White. Read what she wrote and read biographies of her-- at least one complete biography. There are many well-written, well-researched ones.

Until you do this, it's hard to talk to you about her because you have so many false understandings of her and of her beliefs and writings, to say nothing about the kind of person she was in everyday life.

It would be like my being unwilling to read what Joseph Smith wrote or being unwilling to read biographies of him, but instead reading all the anti-Mormon books, etc. How am I going to get the truth by doing this? It would be impossible.

Would you think it's fair and a good way to find out about you if a person only reads things written by your enemies or by people who are writing against you? Wouldn't you urge people to read what you actually wrote and talk to people who know you best?

Why shouldn't this principle apply to Ellen White and William Miller?

Not to do so would be like people only reading things against God and the Bible.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Was Ninevah overthrown in forty days?

Does that mean Jonah is a false prophet?

Why isn't he?

Do you believe in conditional prophecies? They do exist in the Bible.

See Deut. 28. This prophecy was based on the response of the people of Israel.

awww...John317, you took away my thunder... (j/k)

[John317]

Hey, rudywoofs, I'm sorry about that. :-)

You sure had a good idea. lol

[John317]

.... the projections of the false prophet never materialize because they are not speaking truth .... their alleged visions and prophecies [predictions] are not inspired by the Lord

Do you remember what God said about prophecies that come to pass even though they are given by false prophets?

Does this ever happen?

What test should apply to people even if their prophecy comes to pass?

Can't the Devil also sometimes guess pretty well about the future? Or can't the Devil inspire false prophets with "prophecies" of the future because Satan knows what he plans to do?

So merely because a prediction comes true is not a proof that it was given by a genuine prophet of God, right?

In 1 Sam. 28: 19, Satan inspired "Samuel" to predict that Saul would be with him, that is, that Saul would be killed the next day. And it happened just as "Samuel" predicted. But does this mean that "Samuel" was a true prophet of God?

Also, check out Deut. 28: 1,3 and 15.

It says, "Now it shall come to pass, if you will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God... blessed shall you be...."

V. 15, 16, "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God... Cursed shall you be...."

Isn't that a conditional prophecy?

Prophecy of blessing or prophecy of cursing would be fulfilled conditioned upon the response of the people to the prophecy was made.

[miz3]

If we are making everything concerning the Revelation Churches please tell what the Greek Names of the Churches means? What do these Greek Name symbols actually mean?

I was not just asking Truth Files. I was asking everyone!

[Truth Files]

"Prophecy of blessing or prophecy of cursing would be fulfilled conditioned upon the response of the people to the prophecy was made."

>The Lord already knows what the people will do before hand

>The substance of the matter is that the false prophet's divination [attempting to predict future events] never materialize

>There are no true prophets outside of the Bible prophets .... not one .... and any additional who claim otherwise are false and the Lord warns about following the same for a reason [Matthew 24:4-5]

>The gift of prophecy bestowed upon certain believers is limited to the correct rendering and teaching of the prophetic scriptures [of the Bible prophets] already given .... the Lord's prophetic Word is completed and one is not to add to, or take away, from it [Revelation 22:18-19]

[ClubV12]

Of course Ellen White herself never claimed to be a prophetess. One reason for that is that in her time there were about 200 people making that claim! It was a kind of "popular movement" then. She was "more than a prophet" as she put's it, the Lords appointed messenger. Now as for me, looking back on the great body of work that she produced over the decades. Her influence and the results of that work, I don't have a problem calling her a prophetess. I do believe she is worthy of that name, and MORE!

...just thought I'd mention that.

[Lysimachus]

"Prophecy of blessing or prophecy of cursing would be fulfilled conditioned upon the response of the people to the prophecy was made."

>The Lord already knows what the people will do before hand

>The substance of the matter is that the false prophet's divination [attempting to predict future events] never materialize

>There are no true prophets outside of the Bible prophets .... not one .... and any additional who claim otherwise are false and the Lord warns about following the same for a reason [Matthew 24:4-5]

>The gift of prophecy bestowed upon certain believers is limited to the correct rendering and teaching of the prophetic scriptures [of the Bible prophets] already given .... the Lord's prophetic Word is completed and one is not to add to, or take away, from it [Revelation 22:18-19]

The prophecies will not go in vain. The question is: To whom will those prophecies be fulfilled. That is the question. And in what manner? In the same typical manner described in Ezekiel? Or antitypically realized to those who take hold of God's covenant?

This concept is consistent with Arminian teaching. Otherwise, Dispensationalism is actually subscribing to Calvinistic Predestination, even though they may deny it.

God knows the end from the beginning, but a nation that God chooses still has conditions. Those promises he made to that nation will be fulfilled on condition of their obedience. Otherwise, they will be cut off, and that promise that will never fail will be fulfilled only to those people who take hold of His covenant.

[Truth Files]

The Lord pre-destinates no one .... the human must chose [free will]

Calvin was just another pied piper of an exclusive cult like "christian" movement who did not understand the Lord's intent with regard to human will and His requirement for a mutually shared relationship

But the Lord is pre-cognizant .... He knows the end from the beginning about all things, but He does not force His salvation on any human .... one must seek and chose HIm

Calvin had self serving motivations to create a proprietary religion exclusive of any others ..... so he claimed that if one was a member of His following they must have been "pre-destined" into it .... all others were outsiders and headed for the Lord's lake of fire

This design of the religious organization with exclusive insiders in various forms has been the behavior of many who come in the name of Jesus Christ with the intent to deceive

[skyblue888]

In Ephesians 1:5 we read that God has pre-destinated all of us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.

Of course we can accept or reject this predestination but predestinated we were.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

In Ephesians 1:5 we read that God has pre-destinated all of us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.

Of course we can accept or reject this predestination but predestinated we were.

sky

And you actually believe that this is true? If this were true, then how come Jesus never said anything about it? If one has a question regarding truth, why not get it answered by using the words of Jesus Christ ONLY? Using other's words is a stupid thing to do, and there is no second chance.

[John317]

>There are no true prophets outside of the Bible prophets .... not one .... and any additional who claim otherwise are false and the Lord warns about following the same for a reason [Matthew 24:4-5]

Matt. 24: 4-5 actually proves just the opposite of what you're claiming. Those verses prove that there would be some true prophets as well as false. Otherwise, Jesus would have simply said "Don't follow any prophets at all."

It is true that many will try to deceive people. But then who are the people being deceived? And who are the deceivers? And how can we tell?

The books of Ephesians and 1 Corinthians and Revelation as well as 1 Thess. prove that you are wrong about prophecy. Those verse clearly teach that the gift of prophecy was placed in the church and would continue "until we all come into the unity of the faith, to a pefect man...." Eph. 4: 12, 13.

[Truth Files]

"In Ephesians 1:5 we read that God has pre-destinated all of us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will"

>The Lord has set out His salvation for those who will seek it and He already knows who will ..... and who will not

>He forces this on no one, but all of those who hear and believe are "pre-destinated" because of His provision, not because He has controlled the destiny of anyone

>Make certain that you understand this truth

[skyblue888]

"In Ephesians 1:5 we read that God has pre-destinated all of us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will"

>The Lord has set out His salvation for those who will seek it and He already knows who will ..... and who will not

>He forces this on no one, but all of those who hear and believe are "pre-destinated" because of His provision, not because He has controlled the destiny of anyone

>Make certain that you understand this truth

[/quote

Who even suggested that God was using any kind of force? The Bible says that all men were chosen in Christ even before the foundation of the world. This is God's will. Now we can put our will on the side of God's will. All who come to God trusting wholly in the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifce for their acceptance with God are safe under the wings of the Almighty, as long as they continue in the faith.

sky

[Truth Files]

"The books of Ephesians and 1 Corinthians and Revelation as well as 1 Thess. prove that you are wrong about prophecy. Those verse clearly teach that the gift of prophecy"

>The gift of prophecy bestowed upon the believer is far different than the prophecies [visions] of the originating prophets

>The things recorded by the Bible prophets and the Lord's own presentation of the same are completed and nothing is to be added or taken away .... there are no new valid originating prophets

>One who has the gift of prophecy is given the discernment to understand the true meanings of the records of the Bible prophets that have already been set and the ability to teach them to others .... no more than this

>Those who claim to be the carriers of visions given to them by the Lord, angel, etc. and practice divination to reveal some "new thing" are all false prophets who teach falsehoods

>Many of these extra-biblical manipulators have come, past and present, for the purpose of attracting attention to themselves, gain a following, controlling the membership, and making merchandise for self gain

>People are gullible and they have itching ears desiring to belong to human social structures, to be exclusive, and to know more than the prophetic scriptures tell .... the false prophet/teacher knows of this vulnerability and exploits it by offering them these things

[John317]

>Those who claim to be the carriers of visions given to them by the Lord, angel, etc. and practice divination to reveal some "new thing" are all false prophets who teach falsehoods

>Many of these extra-biblical manipulators have come, past and present, for the purpose of attracting attention to themselves, gain a following, controlling the membership, and making merchandise for self gain

>People are gullible and they have itching ears desiring to belong to human social structures, to be exclusive, and to know more than the prophetic scriptures tell .... the false prophet/teacher knows of this vulnerability and exploits it by offering them these things

What do you mean by "divination"?

Who are you talking about here? Anyone in particular?

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Truth Files

>There are no true prophets outside of the Bible prophets .... not one .... and any additional who claim otherwise are false and the Lord warns about following the same for a reason [Matthew 24:4-5]

Matt. 24: 4-5 actually proves just the opposite of what you're claiming. Those verses prove that there would be some true prophets as well as false. Otherwise, Jesus would have simply said "Don't follow any prophets at all."

It is true that many will try to deceive people. But then who are the people being deceived? And who are the deceivers? And how can we tell?

The books of Ephesians and 1 Corinthians and Revelation as well as 1 Thess. prove that you are wrong about prophecy. Those verse clearly teach that the gift of prophecy was placed in the church and would continue "until we all come into the unity of the faith, to a pefect man...." Eph. 4: 12, 13.

Huh? Are you kidding me? The only place where you see that Jesus said there will be someone like a true prophet will be is found in Matt. 17:11 and Matt. 24:45. So you do you insist that anyone needs another's words to understand salvation other than the words of Jesus? So don't go changing the words of Jesus to say something else! Please!!! By the way, Jesus said IT the way He did to give YOU and I a choice to believe in His words or the words of others who never knew Jesus. If Jesus would have said not to believe in another prophet, then you would NOT have to use your head to discover the real truth. It is as simple as that John317.

John317, do you believe that you can't be deceived? If so, then you are one of those found in Rev. 3:14-22. This is serious business!

As far as the issue of 'gift of prophecy', there is NO such thing! The only thing people need to do is keep the commandments and the obey the words of Jesus! They do NOT have to obey the words of anyone else, and they do NOT have to ever follow after anyone else other than the words of Jesus Christ. If there was such a thing as a 'gift of prophecy' then God would be showing favoritism and God does NOT do this.

[John317]

As far as the issue of 'gift of prophecy', there is NO such thing! The only thing people need to do is keep the commandments and the obey the words of Jesus! They do NOT have to obey the words of anyone else, and they do NOT have to ever follow after anyone else other than the words of Jesus Christ. If there was such a thing as a 'gift of prophecy' then God would be showing favoritism and God does NOT do this.

It's your word against the word of the Bible:

1 Cor. 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Sph. 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

As far as the issue of 'gift of prophecy', there is NO such thing! The only thing people need to do is keep the commandments and the obey the words of Jesus! They do NOT have to obey the words of anyone else, and they do NOT have to ever follow after anyone else other than the words of Jesus Christ. If there was such a thing as a 'gift of prophecy' then God would be showing favoritism and God does NOT do this.

It's your word against the word of the Bible:

1 Cor. 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Sph. 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

Can you argue your point by using the words of Jesus? I don't think so!

[ClubV12]

Can you tie one hand behind your back and still win a wrestling match?

Well,,, maybe Dr. Rich could, but it would sure look funny. Why limit yourself from the many different sources God has given us to explain His word? I don't have a clue why you would, but you do, go figure.

[John317]

Paul's letters as well as Luke's Gospel and the book of Acts and the rest of the NT are God's words as surely as the recorded words of Jesus. It is all Holy Scripture. You have gotten so far off that you don't even see how wrong it is to reject the word of God.

[Truth Files]

"What do you mean by "divination"?"

"Who are you talking about here? Anyone in particular?"

>Divination is the practice of foretelling the future with the possibility of a connection with familiar spirits [satanically induced] .... and never from God

>False prophets are diviners whose predictions do not materialize, however there are those who believe and will follow false prophets even when failure is evident .... then reinvention is generally the next offering

>I don't see anyone on the forum that is openly behaving in this manner .... the professing christian diviner is almost always one who claims visions from God ["the Lord revealed to me" types] and then proceeds to build new revelations into a pseudo-christian movement

>The visions are fabricated by the diviner [made up], or are figments of the person's imagination, and can some times be satanically induced

>There is a very long list of known individuals who have done this, and do this today, and their purpose is almost always to attract attention to them selves and to demonstrate that they have a special connection with revelations from the spirit world [even the Lord's] which affords them hidden knowledge not previously known

>Many of these bill themselves as christians .... preachers, Bible teachers, and the like, and they will continue until they are exposed as fakes [their foretelling fails and their reprobate life styles are often uncovered for all to see]

>They will come and claim that they have discovered "hidden manna" and they then proceed to add things to the Word of God

>The Lord is against this behavior and has already pronounced His judgment against those who do these things [1Timothy 4:1-2; 2Timothy 3:1-17; 2Peter 2:1-22; Revelation 2:20-23;

>Ezekiel 13, Jeremiah 14:14, and Matthew 7:15 are examples of the Lord's view of the divining and fakery of the false prophets

>I would suggest that you get a good Bible search engine [you can find one on the Internet] .... when you type in a subject, word, or verse the search engine will return every related verse throughout the scriptures .... if you type in "prophet" you will learn much about the Lord's evaluation of the same

[Lysimachus]

"What do you mean by "divination"?"

"Who are you talking about here? Anyone in particular?"

>Divination is the practice of foretelling the future with the possibility of a connection with familiar spirits [satanically induced] .... and never from God

>The false prophet is a diviner whose predictions do not materialize, however there are those who believe and will follow the false prophet even when failure is evident .... then reinvention is generally the next offering

So the Beast of Revelation 13 and 17 are systems, and the Harlot Woman, a single woman, is also a system, but then suddenly the False Prophet is a single man?

I'm sorry, but that doesn't compute. This is inconsistent.

[John317]

Can you argue your point by using the words of Jesus? I don't think so!

I'm done trying. When a person can teach that the prophet of God is of the devil or that 2/3 of the NT is of Satan, what can you do? Nothing but pray.