The 1260 Year Interpretation of Protestantism

[cheddar]

One moment I smell Futurism, the next moment I smell Preterism. Wow, anything to get away from Historicism! Even more, Adventist Historicism! Right ClubV12?

It's amazing how people will wiggle and tiggle and find every loophole they can to get away from the inconvenient truth that the Papacy is the predicted Antichrist power of Daniel and Revelation!

And the same could be said about historical interpretations that can only be proved with a history book.

Protestants dumped historicism for good reason - they may have adopted other equally foolish ideas but at least their going in the right direction.

Adventists are always looking backwards trying to relive the glory days of Ellen White and the pioneers - if they were so great we wouldn't be here today.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

Jesus said in all three accounts - Matt, Mark, Luke.

This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled.

The all would include the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd coming.

If you believe Jesus meant to say He would return within one generation of the time that Jerusalem was destroyed, are you saying Jesus was referring to a yet future destruction of Jerusalem from our viewpoint?

There are different ways of understanding Matt. 24: 34.

First of all, what is h genea? It is Strongs#1074.

It may mean a generation, birth, and progeny, but it can also mean a race, an interval of time as in an age, course of life.

Secondly, if you consider the previous verses, particularly verses 32-33, the reference to genea may well signify that those who see the fulfillment of all those signs which are described will live to see Christ return.

Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple not Jerusalem since there is no temple now then He was referring to the generation He was in would see those signs before the temple would be destroyed.

The gospel went to the known world before the temple was destroyed

Colossians 1:6

(6) Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

False Christ's and false prophets did rise before the destruction of the temple, and I am sure we could find some other signs fulfilled as well

Acts 20:29-30

(29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

(30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

[John317]

Dan 9:24. NJB

Quote:

Seventy weeks are decreed

for your people and your holy city,

for putting an end to transgression,

for placing the seal on sin,

for expiating crime,

for introducing everlasting uprightness

for setting the seal on vision and on prophecy,

for anointing the holy of holies

.

...For today,

Has there been an end to transgression/rebellion?

Is there no more sin?

Has guilt been atoned for?

Are we experiencing everlasting righteousness?

Have vision and prophecy been sealed/completed?

Has the holy of holies been anointed?

Notice that the first part says that the prophecy refers to the Jews and to Jerusalem. Thus Daniel's people are being put on notice that God is giving them once last change to get their act together and fulfill God's plan for them.

Daniel 9: 24 actually works out to be 3 major points in Hebrew parallelism:

God's plan for the Jews of that day was to do the following things:

1) for putting an end to transgression,

for placing the seal on sin,

[The above lines are not saying God wants the Jews to stop all sin. Rather, God wants them to reform their lives and cease being evil.]

2) for expiating crime,

for introducing everlasting uprightness

[These lines refer to God's plan to usher in the kingdom of God on earth, which would have happened if the Jews had accepted the Messiah instead of rejecting Him.]

3) for setting the seal on vision and on prophecy,

for anointing the holy of holies

[God's predictions of the Messiah would have proven the truth and fulfillment of all prophecies. The last line refers to the anointing of the heavenly sanctuary.]

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Right, I want you miz3 to tell me your interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. I don't want to hear about how we're wrong in our interpretation. I want to hear YOUR interpretation. Bottom line.

This is your problem not mine.

You are the one asserting you know the solution. You are the one asserting the year/day. I am merely saying that you are wrong in this assertion. Now defend what you have asserted or:

Could it be that you just don't know how to explain Daniel chapter nine?

If you tell me "I can't explain how 490days or one point four years fits into Daniel nine", I will except your honest testimony.

But when you make it up and "force" the Bible to say what it does not say, that I cannot go along with. I have to question the voracity of such Scriptural interpretation.

Well Lysimachus?

[John317]

miz3, if you can't tell people what you understand Daniel 9 to be saying and how God intends us to apply it, there really is not much more to be said here.

What you're doing is similar to a man telling someone that their plan to build a house is wrong but then he admits that he doesn't have any ideas of his own.

Not much to do or talk about after that.

[miz3]

Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.[e]

25 “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree[f] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[g] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.[h] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Daniel 9:24-27.

Some translations use "Anointed One" or "an anointed one" or "Messiah".

The term "Messiah" in this text has clearly been shown to be a mistranslation.

The best terms are "Anointed One" or "an anointed one"!

Now King Saul, King David, Priest Aaron were all "anointed ones". None of them was the Messiah!

Thus, the terms using "anointed" do not refer to the Messiah!

SDA have misapplied this text because they have accepted the mistranslation of this term.

Once again we see that Daniel chapter nine does not support year/day because the text does not refer to the Messiah.

[miz3]

miz3, if you can't tell people what you understand Daniel 9 to be saying and how God intends us to apply it, there really is not much more to be said here.

What you're doing is similar to a man telling someone that their plan to build a house is wrong but then he admits that he doesn't have any ideas of his own.

Not much to do or talk about after that.

There is a lot to talk about if the man's plan is correct.

If the man's plan is indeed wrong then he either admits he is wrong or he just sits their silently and says nothing because he has no defense. Thanks your illustration helps make my point.

However, your silence can mean only one thing.

You have no definitive correct answer.

[John317]

Wrong. My silence at this point means two things: I'm about ready to go to bed since it is almost midnight on the West coast, and I am tired of the discussion and feel that it is useless to carry on with it, at least with regard to this topic. Perhaps I will think differently about it tomorrow after I have had some shut-eye.

[fccool]

miz3, if you can't tell people what you understand Daniel 9 to be saying and how God intends us to apply it, there really is not much more to be said here.

What you're doing is similar to a man telling someone that their plan to build a house is wrong but then he admits that he doesn't have any ideas of his own.

Not much to do or talk about after that.

Not quite. A more proper analogy would be a man who tells people that they are building the house incorrectly, because they are building some weird structure and call it a house.

We have examples of previous prophecies, so we know what the house looks like.

These prophecies are generally clear and explicit, or they are to serve some lesson which is to be understood upon the fulfillment.

Much of the prophecies are not there to know the future events, but to recognize the past ones.

I think it's quite obvious that the prophecy of Daniel is forced to day-for-year principle because there's an essential need for it to be years and not days due to pre-existing idea that Roman Papal system is the beast described.

All of the time-frames become irrelevant, because these are crammed into a certain timeline. I'll show you some examples and reasons for which these are not quite there.

[skyblue888]

The seventy prophetic weeks were amazingly fulfilled.

When Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled. Repent and believe the Gospel," (Mark 1:15) He was referring to the time of Daniel 9, the seventy-week prophecy spanning from 457 B.C. to A.D.34. Between 457 B.C. and A.D.27, when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit in the Jordan river, there are exactly 69 prophetic weeks. In the middle of the last prophetic week, the seventieth week, between A.D.27 and A.D.34 He was crucified, just as predicted. And at the end of that prophetic week, in A.D.34, the Jews stoned Stephen and thus the Jewish nation sealed her rejection of God's mercy and the disciples of Christ turned to the Gentiles.

The very fact that Jesus was anointed in the Jordan river exactly sixty-nine prophetic weeks after 457 B.C. which is the starting point of that prophecy, should convince any honest Bible student of the soundness of the day/year principle.

Then we have the 1260 prophetic days which amount to 1260 years of papal supremacy between A.D.538 and 1798. The very fact that in 1798 General Berthier under Napoleon entered Rome and took the pope into captivity and that from that time on the papacy lost her temporal supremacy should arrest anyone's attention to the day/year principle as being biblically sound.

1844 marked the ending of the 2,300 day prophecy having the same starting point as the 70 week prophecy, 457 B.C. On the 22nd of October Jesus passed from the first apartment of the sanctuary above into the second apartment and this event marked the beginning or the rise of the Advent Movement, again exactly as predicted.

These are undeniable facts of history. Anyone who is a serious student of Bible prophecy cannot but be amazed at the fulfillment of these prophecies based on the day/year principle.

In 1798 five had fallen.

1.Babylon

2.Medo-Persia

3.Greece

4.Pagan Rome

5.Papal Rome (1798)

One is: Atheistic France which is the sixth.

And one is yet to come: Apostate Protestantism which is the seventh which does not have a kingdom yet but will receive a kingdom when church and state shall unite to enforce Sunday observance.

And the eighth, which is of the seven, the papal power, which was before 1798, is not after 1798, and yet is again when her wound shall be healed, for Apostate Protestantism shall give its kingdom (power and authority) to the papacy just as Pagan Rome did in the fourth century and thus history will be repeated and persecution will rise its ugly head one more time.

At the time of the fifth plague the eyes of the world will be opened and they will see how they have been deceived and they will withdraw their support from the papacy and they will turn against her with the fury of demons. This is the sixth plague or the drying up of the support, otherwise called the drying up of the River Euphrates, the drying up of the waters upon which the papacy was sitting for support.

At that time the last part of Daniel 11:45 will be fulfilled, "And he (the papacy, the king of the north) shall come to his end, and no one shall help him."

I believe the above to be sound adventist eschatological interpretation of Daniel and the Revelation.

sky

[Lysimachus]

This is your problem not mine.

You are the one asserting you know the solution. You are the one asserting the year/day. I am merely saying that you are wrong in this assertion. Now defend what you have asserted or:

Could it be that you just don't know how to explain Daniel chapter nine?

If you tell me "I can't explain how 490days or one point four years fits into Daniel nine", I will except your honest testimony.

But when you make it up and "force" the Bible to say what it does not say, that I cannot go along with. I have to question the voracity of such Scriptural interpretation

I have no real burden to respond to this miz3. You have practically admitted that you are ALONE in your interpretation. You are floating out to sea in your own little boat without chart or compass, pretending that these 70 weeks cannot be interpreted. Not even all your Dispensational friends, who disagree with the day/year principle as well, agree with you that the 70 weeks do not represent 490 years. Their argument rests on saying that the Hebrew word "shabuam" means "sevens", and not weeks. That is their only hope of trying to get off the hook of employing the day/year principle. But since you miz3 have seen this argument refuted, you are FORCED to resort to an UNORTHODOX position that the 70 weeks cannot be interpreted. I find this so appalling, that I'm surprised I'm still sitting on my seat able to finish this sentence.

This is EXACTLY what the Jews wanted everyone to think!

Your spirit is NO DIFFERENT THAN THE RABBINIC CURSE AGAINST THE 70 WEEKS:

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Header-Downloads-References-RabbinicCurse.html

Read those well miz3!

[Lysimachus]

In 1798 five had fallen.

1.Babylon

2.Medo-Persia

3.Greece

4.Pagan Rome

5.Papal Rome (1798)

One is: Atheistic France which is the sixth.

And one is yet to come: Apostate Protestantism which is the seventh which does not have a kingdom yet but will receive a kingdom when church and state shall unite to enforce Sunday observance.

And the eighth, which is of the seven, the papal power, which was before 1798, is not after 1798, and yet is again when her wound shall be healed, for Apostate Protestantism shall give its kingdom (power and authority) to the papacy just as Pagan Rome did in the fourth century and thus history will be repeated and persecution will rise its ugly head one more time.

Hi Sky. I've always liked this interpretation. However, critics of mine have stated that we must go by what John said in the present "5 are fallen", meaning, 5 had fallen already during the time of John. And that the "one is" was during John's time.

How would you formulate a good argument to show that the "one is" can be a future "present"? I'm just curious. Would nice to sharpen this argument.

[skyblue888]

In 1798 five had fallen.

1.Babylon

2.Medo-Persia

3.Greece

4.Pagan Rome

5.Papal Rome (1798)

One is: Atheistic France which is the sixth.

And one is yet to come: Apostate Protestantism which is the seventh which does not have a kingdom yet but will receive a kingdom when church and state shall unite to enforce Sunday observance.

And the eighth, which is of the seven, the papal power, which was before 1798, is not after 1798, and yet is again when her wound shall be healed, for Apostate Protestantism shall give its kingdom (power and authority) to the papacy just as Pagan Rome did in the fourth century and thus history will be repeated and persecution will rise its ugly head one more time.

sky

__________________________

Hi Sky. I've always liked this interpretation. However, critics of mine have stated that we must go by what John said in the present "5 are fallen", meaning, 5 had fallen already during the time of John. And that the "one is" was during John's time.

How would you formulate a good argument to show that the "one is" can be a future "present"? I'm just curious. Would nice to sharpen this argument.

Lysimachus

_________________

Lysi, this view is based on the assumption that the point of reference of Revelation 17 for the five that have fallen is John's own time. But that is not so. The point of reference is given in verse 3 of the chapter. John was taken in the Spirit into the wilderness where he saw the beast, the papal power, as it had been slain (deadly wound) in 1798 at the hand of Atheistic France, the sixth head. From there he saw that 5 had fallen.

In 1798 the papacy had to go into the "wilderness" being persecuted. In John's own day Pagan Rome was sitting as a queen.

If we take John's own day as the point of reference, we have:

Five have fallen which would be:

5. Greece

4. Medo Persia

3. Babylon

2. Egypt

1. Assyria

And Pagan Rome would be the one that is in John's own day, and then Papal Rome would be the one that was yet to come. But what about the beast of Rev.11 and Apostate Protestantism? If we take John's own day as the point of reference, we have 5 have fallen, one is, and THREE are yet to come! But that is not what it says. It says five have fallen, one is, and ONE is yet to come.

1798 being the point of reference given in verse 3, we have five have fallen, Papal Rome in 1798, Pagan Rome, Greece, Medo-Persia, Babylon... then Atheistic France in 1798 is the one that is, and Apostate Protestantism is the one that is yet to come when it shall receive a kingdom, and the eighth which is of the seven, that is, the papal power, which was before 1798, is not after 1798, and is again when her wound shall be healed.

To me, this is the only explanation that makes sense of Rev.17.

sky

Notice that the prophecy of Daniel 2 does not mention Assyria or Egypt. It starts with Babylon!

[Lysimachus]

Thank you much Sky! I'm a bit rusty on Revelation 17, and even though I had an "idea" practically identical to what you just described, I was at a loss of how to formulate it in words or Biblically support it.

So basically, what's taking place is, the angel is fast-forwarding John to a future point of reference, and then, on the basis of being forwarded to that point of reference, uses the "present tense"? In other words, we must go by the point of reference the angel and John are discussing in the time sweep of the vision, not the actual time he was living in. Correct?

[skyblue888]

Thank you much Sky! I'm a bit rusty on Revelation 17, and even though I had an "idea" practically identical to what you just described, I was at a loss of how to formulate it in words or Biblically support it.

So basically, what's taking place is, the angel is fast-forwarding John to a future point of reference, and then, on the basis of being forwarded to that point of reference, uses the "present tense"? In other words, we must go by the point of reference the angel and John are discussing in the time sweep of the vision, not the actual time he was living in. Correct?

Your welcome. Yes, I believe so. Taking John's own day as the point of reference is only speculation whereas taking verse 3 of the chapter as the revealed point of reference makes everything fits like into a glove and is in perfect harmony with adventist eschatology.

sky

[Lysimachus]

Your welcome. Yes, I believe so. Taking John's own day as the point of reference is only speculation whereas taking verse 3 of the chapter as the revealed point of reference makes everything fits like into a glove and is in perfect harmony with adventist eschatology.

sky

Super. It's amazing how Adventist eschatology flows so smoothly with historical events. Yes, while Adventists are not immune to a number of difficulties, I find far fewer difficulties with the Adventist eschatological framework than I do any other framework.

Have you purchased Heidi Heiks books yet? Gotta get them classics on your shelf bro.

[skyblue888]

Heidi Heiks books!

Not familiar with these books.

sky

[Lysimachus]

Heidi Heiks books!

Not familiar with these books.

sky

http://www.TheSourceHH.org

His 6 books are:

1. AD 508 538 1798 1843 Source Book (Preliminary) (136 pages) (this book is a summary of the following rest of the AD books. I recommend the full volume set below:)

2. AD 508 Source Book (222 pages)

3. AD 538 Source Book (323 pages)

4. AD 1798 1843 Source Book (188 pages)

5. The "Daily" Source Book (222 pages)

6. King of the North: An Exposition of Daniel 11:40-12:1 (115 pages)

You can read about them here:

http://www.thesourcehh.org/store.htm#

You can purchase them individually here:

http://www.teachservices.com/search.php?search_query=Heidi+Heiks&x=0&y=0

Or you can purchase them in a full bulk here:

http://store.secretsunsealed.org/merchan...gory_Code=BOOKS

His books have received full reviews and seal of approval by some major General Conference theologians, such as William H. Shea, Ph.D., Gerhard Pfandl, Ph.D., and Herbert Edgar Douglass, Th.D.

These books are by far the most exhaustive ever produced on these dates. The scholarship in them is unprecedented.

I believe every Adventist student of prophecy needs to get these on their shelves. They provide the most exhaustive ammunition necessary to thoroughly defend our prophetic dates.

[skyblue888]

Okay thanks! I will take a look.

Have you ever read The Two Republics by A.T. Jones?

sky

[Lysimachus]

Okay thanks! I will take a look.

Have you ever read The Two Republics by A.T. Jones?

sky

Hmm...no I have not. I will definitely add that to my list of books! Thanks! I see that it is on the EGW CD-Rom under the "Words of the Adventist Pioneers" section.

I've read much of his "The Empires of the Bible" and "The Great Empires of Prophecy" though.

[Aliensanctuary]

Isaiah 2

Quote:

2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Question here, J317.

How would you explain these verses from Isaiah 2, and where in time did, or will, they occur?

Quote:

1) for putting an end to transgression,

for placing the seal on sin,

[The above lines are not saying God wants the Jews to stop all sin. Rather, God wants them to reform their lives and cease being evil.]

2) for expiating crime,

for introducing everlasting uprightness

[These lines refer to God's plan to usher in the kingdom of God on earth, which would have happened if the Jews had accepted the Messiah instead of rejecting Him.]

3) for setting the seal on vision and on prophecy,

for anointing the holy of holies

Did Daniel's prophecy of the 70th week in 4:24 then fail since Israel did not fulfill it?

Also, were Jesus' followers included (people of the Prince) with those who, some believe, were responsible for the destruction of the city and temple? There were many in Jerusalem who weren't actually his followers.

PS. We should all be careful not to be arrogant, that is, demean others so that we look better. Arrogance is pride, and we all know what happens to those who are full of pride. Someday they will explode and their guts will fly everywhere. People will talk about how far that person fell, from the heights, to the depths.

In the Sheep/Goat Judgment that Jesus described, it's not those who knew (or thought they knew) all prophecy and esoteric wisdom that were rewarded. According to Jesus in this scene, it was how one treated others that resulted in reward or punishment. That's fair, really, because in the Kingdom there will only be those who can respect others and their thoughts and feelings, take care of their needs, and treat them with unfailing kindness.

In this parable, it wasn't theological knowledge that resulted in a reward, but how one demonstrated their care and concern for others.

[John317]

I think it's quite obvious that the prophecy of Daniel is forced to day-for-year principle because there's an essential need for it to be years and not days due to pre-existing idea that Roman Papal system is the beast described.

What then is your understanding of the meaning of the little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8? I would like to know your interpretation of those prophecies.

I have noticed that the day for a year understanding of the prophetic time is rejected by those who don't want to believe that the papal system is the little-horn power.

There's no other power on earth that fulfills the prophetic specifications as the papal system does.

It is also rejected by those who either reject Ellen White or don't accept her as having been a genuine prophet of God.

But the point I would make here is that the day for a year principle has overwhelming biblical support if people are willing to accept it. If people aren't willing to accept the truth, there is nothing that even God can do but leave them alone to go their own way.

There are many people who will argue against Christ having even existed, and not because there is no evidence of his existence, but because they simply do not want to believe it. The same is true of the Sabbath and the state of the dead, etc.

[Lysimachus]

Isaiah 2

Quote:

2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Question here, J317.

How would you explain these verses from Isaiah 2, and where in time did, or will, they occur?

I usually try to avoid answering a question with a single link, but seeing I am super busy lately, and don't have the time, I thought I'd share with you this link that deals with all of these prophecies quite extensively:

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter3.pdf

It also deals with Isaiah 2, and how and why it is fulfilled in the Church. If I were to deal with Isaiah 2 alone, it would be difficult to answer this question responsibly. But when taking in the totality of the entire Bible, and allowing the New Testament to be the Old Testament's expositor, then the full and big picture emerges.

One of the major problems why people continue to look for the literal fulfillments of many of these Old Testament prophecies is because they fail to ascertain the principle of conditional types (or conditional type prophecies) that point forward to unconditional antitypes--which are never identical to the types.

The article above will reveal the entire big picture of how to understand how the prophecies concerning ancient Israel will be realized in the New Testament's antitypical age.

[John317]

....1) for putting an end to transgression,

for placing the seal on sin,

[The above lines are not saying God wants the Jews to stop all sin. Rather, God wants them to reform their lives and cease being evil.]

2) for expiating crime,

for introducing everlasting uprightness

[These lines refer to God's plan to usher in the kingdom of God on earth, which would have happened if the Jews had accepted the Messiah instead of rejecting Him.]

3) for setting the seal on vision and on prophecy,

for anointing the holy of holies

Originally Posted By: Aliensanctuary

Did Daniel's prophecy of the 70th week in 4:24 then fail since Israel did not fulfill it?

The prophecy was a statement of God's desire for Israel. Notice that Daniel 9: 24 is not a prediction of what Israel will definitely do. That verse is saying that this period of time-- 70 weeks, or 490 years-- is "cut off" from the longer period of 2300 years, and applies just to the Israelites. In other words, the 490 years are the probationary period during which Israel must accept God's plan for them. If they don't do those things that are described in verse 24, within the time specified, the plan of God would be transferred to another people, ie, the Gentiles. At that point, the Jews would cease as a nation to be God's special people. And this is what happened when the nation of Israel rejected the Messiah and then rejected the gospel. The period came to an end in 34 AD, and was marked by the stoning of Stephen, in Acts 7.

So then, it was up to the nation of Israel to decide whether to do it. They chose to reject Christ. Therefore, God's plan for Israel did not take place.

Christ did anoint the Most Holy Place, however, but the other parts of God's plan will eventually be fulfilled through the church, i.e., Gentiles and Jews who are Christ's true followers. God still loves the Jewish people, and of course they may be saved the same as anyone else, through faith in the Messiah.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

In 1798 five had fallen.

1.Babylon

2.Medo-Persia

3.Greece

4.Pagan Rome

5.Papal Rome (1798)

One is: Atheistic France which is the sixth.

And one is yet to come: Apostate Protestantism which is the seventh which does not have a kingdom yet but will receive a kingdom when church and state shall unite to enforce Sunday observance.

And the eighth, which is of the seven, the papal power, which was before 1798, is not after 1798, and yet is again when her wound shall be healed, for Apostate Protestantism shall give its kingdom (power and authority) to the papacy just as Pagan Rome did in the fourth century and thus history will be repeated and persecution will rise its ugly head one more time.

Hi Sky. I've always liked this interpretation. However, critics of mine have stated that we must go by what John said in the present "5 are fallen", meaning, 5 had fallen already during the time of John. And that the "one is" was during John's time.

How would you formulate a good argument to show that the "one is" can be a future "present"? I'm just curious. Would nice to sharpen this argument.

It could be at the time when the 5 are fallen, Papal Rome fell in 1798.