The 1260 Year Interpretation of Protestantism

[fccool]

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Judging by the way I am treated by you I am quite sure the Holy Spirit is not talking to me through you. Therefore what you say about the Bible certainly cannot be true.

To be fair, I don't think that's accurate. Our personal feelings of hostility can overshadow certain validity, which may exist in any view or perspective.

This is exactly why Christians are being pulled apart. There's no need for "Satan" to give churches false doctrine. Just tear them apart into their own little groups, and let them bicker to no end and ignore the real needs of people around them.

Pride gets us nowhere. It isolates us, and makes us week. It makes us ignore the needs of other purely based on some dislike, or chip they put in our shoulder by the "insult" of disagreement.

You know how to be the best friend with the worldly people? Agree with everything they say. They love it. The moment you disagree with them, they'll hate you.

I don't want people to agree with me on every issue. I expect them to disagree. I don't have the same life, neither do I have the same perspective. But we can all arrive on some important matters that we do agree and work on together, and leave the other for a nice and intelligent forum argument

[ClubV12]

The definition of "church" is a moving target around here.

It is, at once, that body of belivers, where ever they may be, who love the Lord and it is also that body of believers who have "lawyers" and bank accounts and a trademarked name, "Seventh-day Adventists". There is nothing wrong with either group, each has it's place. When I speak of the "church" I am generally speaking of the organized, legal body of believers recognized by man and Governments as Seventh-day Adventists.

Recognized, with bank accounts, lawyers, Pastors and members, by the Lord Himself as THE group of people chosen to deliver to the world the present and last warning to mankind.

"We" have a special message for the world no other organization on earth is commissioned with. You can call that "ego" all day long, I call it, God's chosen church on earth, the object of His supreme regard. Attack the church, you attack the author of that church, the Lord Himself.

[fccool]

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Recognized, with bank accounts, lawyers, Pastors and members, by the Lord Himself as THE group of people chosen to deliver to the world the present and last warning to mankind.

These people came together, created a doctrine, and then proclaimed that God approves it, and patted themselves on the back, and decided that whenever they come together... they are the highest authority of God on earth (I'd like to see that concept in the Bible), and if anyone disagrees with them are not in truth. This recognition is self-proclaimed. It's like me giving myself a Nobel Prize for my exceptional juggling skills.

It's not any better than claims of Watchtower Society, Mormons, or Catholic Church.

Name me any other organization or church community on this earth who can validate the above statement? In self-proclamation anything goes.

People can say they were given golden tablets with new revelation by God himself, and why not then? Where do we draw the line?

If Adventists were indeed God's chose church, you would not have to say anything. It would be obvious. They should shine brighter than any, and love more than any.

I'm sorry. I've been a part of it for a while, and there's no more love going around than any other place I've been to. Lot's more judgement, though.

[John317]

... These people came together, created a doctrine, and then proclaimed that God approves it, and patted themselves on the back, and decided that whenever they come together... they are the highest authority of God on earth (I'd like to see that concept in the Bible), and if anyone disagrees with them are not in truth. This recognition is self-proclaimed. It's like me giving myself a Nobel Prize for my exceptional juggling skills.

It's not any better than claims of Watchtower Society, Mormons, or Catholic Church.

.... If Adventists were indeed God's chose church, you would not have to say anything. It would be obvious. They should shine brighter than any, and love more than any.

I'm sorry. I've been a part of it for a while, and there's no more love going around than any other place I've been to. Lot's more judgement, though.

I don't find Seventh-day Adventists "more judgmental" at all.

However, I see a distinct difference between what I find in the SDA church and what I find on this Forum. They are not even close to being the same.

But assuming that what you wrote above are your sincere feelings and conviction, why are you a Seventh-day Adventist?

I don't know if you still are, but are you a practicing SDA?

I personally am an SDA and glad of it. I love the church and believe in its message. If I didn't, I wouldn't be on this Forum.

How about yourself?

If you are not SDA, or an enthusiastic, practicing SDA, I'd be very interested in knowing why not and how it happened that you stopped being enthusiastic about the church and its message. I am sure you were at some point. What happened?

[miz3]

A whole lot of truth here.

[Derogatory statements about a whole group of people deleted by the moderator.]

[fccool]

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[Derogatory words here deleted by the Moderator. See pravious post by miz3 for reasons given.]

I'm not in it to bash these people. I'm not against them, although it may come across this way. These people are my people, and I love them dearly. They are my friends, they are my relatives, they are my mentors, and they are my "partners in crime".

I'm not saying any of this to show how bad they are as people, or as Christians. I certainly understand why they are doing what they do, because I've been there.

I'm hoping that they set aside their message of judgement for a bit (and take off their judge robes), and instead remember what love is. I think they know what it is, they just forgotten how it works.

[John317]

If you could do it, how would you change the teachings of the SDA church? You obviously have some major disagreements with them.

How about the Investigative Judgment and the Spirit of prophecy, for instance?

[fccool]

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I don't know if you still are, but are you a practicing SDA?

John, do you even see any problems with asking this question? Christianity is not something that you practice or not... neither is being SDA. Is SDA a better version of Christian?

It's like me asking you, are you still practicing being a human being? You are still a human, right?

A Christian follows Christ. Who do SDA follow?

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I personally am an SDA and glad of it. I love the church and believe in its message. If I didn't, I wouldn't be on this Forum.

How about yourself?

If it's message is any more than Christ showed us the perfect example of love, through which we establish God's law... then it's in vain.

Prophecy does not save anyone. Neither does it make people any better. Likewise, whether you think that people are in heaven or not matters very little, when one understands that dead does not talk back to you in Christian belief system (be it SDA or Protestant)

Sabbath message is important (so is health message), but we expect it to be immediate (just like health message) . If it's delayed or rejected, we call these people every name in the book, and completely misrepresent what they believe.

I think subjecting people to say yes to 28 beliefs that they can't clearly explain to other without any support material or pastor to send to is utterly ridiculous concept, especially if it's being used as test of fellowship, and denial grounds for Baptism, which should be granted for anyone who wants to do it (not by melodramatic call of the pastor, who's playing the role of the Holy Spirit, but by person's actual request and desire to do so)

It's becomes sort of ...

Person: I would like to follow God!

Pastor: No, we can't let you do that unless you are following God properly... and here's how you do that. Repeat after me the proper beliefs that you should believe, or be an "outsider" in our glorious community. You see, even though you are in fellowship with these people. You help them, and you love them. And even though you have desire to follow God. Because you don't understand these 28 points enough to agree with them... You are not really a part of us, the chosen people.

It's absurd! And you know it is. That's not what church is. It's not an organization with mandated membership. There were plenty of doctrinal disagreement in Early church. There's place and time for it. It does not mean they were not Church members, because they agreed on the heart of the Gospel message.

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If you are not SDA, or an enthusiastic, practicing SDA, I'd be very interested in knowing why not and how it happened that you stopped being enthusiastic about the church and its message. I am sure you were at some point. What happened?

Because it's not a Christian message. It only tells the half story, and it briefly covers the other, more important half by tracking backwards.

It give people wrong idea that we are to love God through obeying points of the rule book. And thus it becomes the whole attitude of the church, because that's how they see God, and that's how they think they please God.

Imagine me coming to my wife and saying:

Ok,

1) I have not cheated on you today

2) Here are the groceries

3) I cleaned the bathroom

4) I took the shower, groomed up, and used deodorant

5) I put my dirty laundry in my bin

6) I've thrown the garbage away

7) Here's the kiss on the cheek

8) Here's a signed Hallmark love card

I loooove you. Ok, how much talking with you would be enough for you to be pleased with me? 5, 10 mins? An hour? Two hours? As much as you want to. I love you, so any time that you would be enough to please you, let me know.

That's not love. You can't work backwards to love. Neither it's something that Holy Spirit magically induces in you. Love comes from understanding who God is, and what He does for us every day, and what he's done for us from the beginning.

What will the message of judgement accomplish? Let's reverse it for a bit. Imagine your wife coming to you and saying:

Hey hon. Here's a warning to you. You forgot our anniversary, and thought it was on Sunday instead of Saturday. I know that you send me flowers, and serenade me on valentines day, and you tell everyone around how much you adore me, but I seriously doubt your love if you ignore our marriage day like that, because you don't understand that that one day means more to me than our entire life together... even more than you. That's inexcusable! You skip it several more times, and I don't care how much flowers you give me, I don't care how much you help me do my chores, I don't care how much you brag about me to your neighbors, I swear I'll have you pay for it dearly.

Yes, honey. That really makes me want to love you more!

It's ABSURD!!! And you know it.

Yet, in essence, that's what Adventist message is. It does not matter how much you "love" God. Your love is not real, unless you follow all of the commandments completely. Sure, you follow the other ones in love, but you miss the most important one. And you reject God if you do that. You are in Babylon.

It's ABSURD!!!

Sabbath is important, but God will never have people burn in agony because they had love for other, yet failed to understand its importance.

We should get back to emphasizing love. That should be 80% of our message. You can't understand the rest without it. You can't begin with Daniel. That's not how you reach people for God.

[John317]

I'm hoping that they set aside their message of judgement for a bit (and take off their judge robes), and instead remember what love is. I think they know what it is, they just forgotten how it works.

Is this your main concern and "gripe" about the SDA church-- or is it something you see lacking in all the churches or in all of society?

I think most people in the church would agree that there should be a great deal more love. But if each of us is not practicing that love with others, talking about it won't help.

And what is "love"? Is it primarily about feelings? Or is it mainly about exercising good will towards everyone we have contact with?

Let's assume that many people don't have "love" for people.

How can they get this "love"? And what will it look like when they have it?

And finally-- do you have it? Do you see yourself as a role-model in how to love others?

Don't feel you need to answer all these questions-- or even any of them. I am just wondering what you think and where you are coming from when it comes to "love" in the church or in society at large.

[John317]

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I don't know if you still are, but are you a practicing SDA?

John, do you even see any problems with asking this question? Christianity is not something that you practice or not... neither is being SDA. Is SDA a better version of Christian?

No, there's no problem with asking the question, any more than there's a problem with asking someone on a Mormon board if they are Mormon. Mormons and Catholics and JWs or Baptists don't generally have a problem being asked.

I think you are making assumptions about the question that aren't true, and this is probably the reason you see a problem with me asking the question.

If we were talking about Russian literature, I might ask you if you are of Russian descent and whether you speak Russian. Would that be a problem? I doubt it. So why is it a problem if I ask you if you are a Seventh-day Adventist? The only reason I ask it is in order to understand something about you.

Perhaps you think that one doesn't learn anything about people by knowing they are a member of the SDA church. But assuming that their belief is like that of most SDAs, it does tell us something about someone to know they are a member of the church, especially if they love their church and share the common beliefs.

But it is possible that you are uncomfortable answering the question for some reason. There could be many different possible causes of this.

If you don't want to answer the question, that's fine, though. No problem. :-)

[fccool]

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Is this your main concern and "gripe" about the SDA church-- or is it something you see lacking in all the churches or in all of society?

I'm not here to knock on SDA church. I want it to be better, but I don't think it becomes better by emphasizing law and judgement. It turns in for the worse, and it really shows.

I took my wife to my original church in Florida for a vocation. We went to the SDA church first, and then we went to Baptist church the next day. My wife and my brother-in-law were floored. They told me that they've never felt so accepted as "own" in their entire lives. They said they felt like over a span of 1 day and mingling with all of the people they felt like they've known them forever.

Now, I generally vent on the forums. I don't talk to my wife about these things, because it upsets her. But the general sentiment of both when they were leaving was:

I wish our churches were more like this one.

There's a visible difference. You preach and practice love, and it will reflect on the people. You preach and practice law and judgement, and you bet, it will likewise reflect.

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I think most people in the church would agree that there should be a great deal more love. But if each of us is not practicing that love with others, talking about it won't help.

That's true. But it won't happen without our disproportionate emphasis, and backwards approach to law and judgement.

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And what is "love"? Is it primarily about feelings? Or is it mainly about exercising good will towards everyone we have contact with? Let's assume that many people don't have "love" for people. How can they get this "love"? And what will it look like when they have it?

Love is certainly not a feeling. Love stems from understanding of personal needs (and even wants), and expression of desire to fulfill it, in a patient, humble, kind, humble manner, and without expecting anything back... just because one understands from experience the need and pleasure to receive the same thing.

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And finally-- do you have it? Do you see yourself as a role-model in how to love others?

It makes no difference whether I say that I do here. It's not really something that you can prove by verbalizing or checking a box. I certainly desire better understanding, and I try to relay certain understanding to those who misunderstand and judge other people as a result. The more I understand "why and how and because" of people, the more I see a need for them to be loved and to be helped, because that's what I desire. And then understanding that God understands ALL, no matter how terrible, intentional, or misguided their choices are... he still gives them what they need, and is patient wit them. It makes me appreciate God so much more. He's not about "judgement". Judgement is for people who know, and use the knowledge to abuse the needy, and promote self at expense and suffering of other. But even these people, given enough time and opportunity to see everything clearly can come to realization and change of mind.

I strive for more understanding, because that's where love begins. I believe that our church really lacks understanding what people go through, and is quick to try to measure other against the law, and then throw the judgement message their way.

That's not what we should be about.

[fccool]

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No, there's no problem with asking the question, any more than there's a problem with asking someone on a Mormon board if they are Mormon. Mormons and Catholics and JWs or Baptists don't generally have a problem being asked.

Because they are of very similar mindset that belonging to a group will somehow save them, although they deny that it at the same time and say that principles that they believe in do, not mere membership.

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If we were talking about Russian literature, I might ask you if you are of Russian descent and whether you speak Russian. Would that be a problem? I doubt it. So why is it a problem if I ask you if you are a Seventh-day Adventist? The only reason I ask it is in order to understand something about you.

Sure, but you have to understand me in the context. I don't think being SDA is more important than being a better human being, or better Christian. I agree that overall SDA perspective is a better understanding Biblical perspective on importance of law, health, and even Prophetic meaning (I disagree with it, but I disagree more with any other version I came across thus far)

But, I believe it's a step down of the perspective of love of God, and it's transforming power to turn people to Him... to the point that they don't need the law to keep them in check. They do it, because they love it.

I know it's mentioned here and there, but it's not the emphasis. It's certainly does not show very well in the "bank ledger". Money talks not just about individuals, but about church membership too.

[John317]

I've been in many different SDA churches and in churches of quite a few different denominations, and I can tell you that what you describe is true of all churches, not merely SDAs. I've seen a lot of very friendsly SDA churches and some "cold" ones too. Same with non-SDA churches. It doesn't have anything directly to do with their teachings. It can have a lot to do with culture and even with race. It can also have to do with the pastor and the elders.

WE make a mistake to think we can judge whether people are loving by how they act or talk. Some people are very gregarious and outgoing, whereas others are very shy and seemingly withdrawn, but that doesn't mean they don't care about you. You often have to get to know people before you can tell what they're thinking and feeling. Some people find it easier to demonstrate their feelings than others.

In any case, I would hope that before your relatives make up their mind about SDAs, they visit some more SDA churches.

[John317]

No, there's no problem with asking the question, any more than there's a problem with asking someone on a Mormon board if they are Mormon. Mormons and Catholics and JWs or Baptists don't generally have a problem being asked.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Because they are of very similar mindset that belonging to a group will somehow save them, although they deny that it at the same time and say that principles that they believe in do, not mere membership.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with it.

For instance, I don't mind at all being asked by anyone if I'm SDA, yet I know that I'm not saved merely because I'm a member of the SDA church. That just isn't how people will be saved in God's kingdom. Being SDA should make it easier for people to be saved and to be a nice person to be around, but for some people it works just the opposite of that.

My wife's entire family (practically) is Roman Catholic, and if you were to ask them what religion they are, they would gladly tell you, even though most of them hardly ever attend Mass, etc. They just have no problem answering the question.

For someone to resent or dislike the question about whether they are a Seventh-day Adventist seems very odd to me. I have never seen it happen, in fact, except on the Forums. Not sure why. I haven't noticed it happen on the JW or Mormon or Catholic Forums.

Are you perhaps afraid somehow that I will put you in a category or "type" you?

[fccool]

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I've been in many different SDA churches and in churches of quite a few different denominations, and I can tell you that what you describe is true of all churches, not merely SDAs. I've seen a lot of very friendsly SDA churches and in some "cold" ones too. It doesn't have anything directly to do with their teachings. It can have a lot to do with culture and even with race. It can also have to do with the pastor and the elders.

John, sure. I don't want to throw every single SDA church into the same mold. There are some pretty rough Baptist churches down south, you know I can tell you that

But I've seen leadership talk, and I know what the emphasis is in individual ones, and the results show.

Those that emphasize love end up loving. Those that emphasize law and judgement, end up legalistic and judgmental.

It really does show. It shows on this board, and it shows in virtually every church I've been to (of course there are a mix of people, but the majority views do show through)

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WE make a mistake to think we can judge whether people are loving by how they act or talk. Some people are very gregarious and others are very shy and withdrawn, but that doesn't mean they don't care about you. You often have to get to know people before you can tell what they're thinking and feeling.

Nah. Someone can be shy and loving. It has nothing to do with that. Some people are just grumpy, but they are still loving. I've met a fair share of them.

I would never bring a friend to a Sabbath school. Would not do that. I have many friends who I've had many religious discussions with about God and his purpose. All of these relationship would be destroyed by one Sabbath school session in our church.

I brought a friend, who smokes and drinks regularly, but he's trying to quit smoking, and he knows that I don't drink for health reasons. I've invited him to church. He came early, and I was hoping that he would not, but he was interested.

He sat down in the back pew, and I was praying that the subject would not come up, "God, let this people realize that some people need time. They need to be introduced to love." And what do you know:

"Devil will find every way to deceive us. He'll give us any pleasure, smoking, drinking, sex. People who do those things are under the influence of Satan, and I'm glad God helped me to those things up, because if I died doing those things, I would have to face God's judgement"

I really did not think it was that bad, until the next lady voiced her wisdom:

"I don't think that people truly able to have relationship with God when they do those things. Man can't serve two masters."

It was over. In the mind of that guy, God became inaccessible and judgmental person who only accepts you when you clean up and shape up. He did not think he could do that, and he stopped talking to me after that.

The sad thing is that given a proper perspective, all of these things would make sense. They were not improper. They were presented backwards, without understanding that there are people who need to hear love and understanding.

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I would hope that before your relatives make up their mind about SDAs, they visit some more SDA churches.

They graduated by Andrews, and they are 3rd generation Adventists that traveled the world, and have grandparents as SDA pastors, and they themselves are proud SDAs. They've seen enough churches both loving, and otherwise. They would not make this comment if they did not genuinely wished it.

[ClubV12]

The Lord certainly led me to the right SDA church. Not a SINGLE member condemed or spoke in a negative way when I first started attenting church. Wreaking of cigar smoke, driving a loud and over the top custom car (stood out like a sore thumb), loud talking, ego centered, I was a mess. All I felt was love and acceptance from the church. When it began to dawn on me that certain aspects of my lifestyle were no longer "cool", all I heard from them was the Lord will take care of your concerns on His schedule. I asked several point blank, should I sell my car, is it a problem? The Lord will take care of that, don't worry about it, was their response. There WERE some questions about my racing schedule and if Sabbath was going to be a problem for me in that regard. Such questions were asked sincerely and with kindness, I got the message.

One Sabbath the Pastor gave a testimony about when he was a young man he competed in some kind of horse riding competition. Doing well too, headed for a major state competition level event. Which was to take place on Sabbath. He dropped out of the competition, said it was the hardest thing he had ever done. Man, that was an arrow through my heart! Oh yeah, I "got it", and determined right then I was done with racing. If he could do it, so could I.

In our Sabbath school class there was a lady who also smoked. A man who is not an Adventist, in fact he still goes to HIS church on Sunday. But he likes our Sabbath school and keeps coming. The lady, and myself, have stopped smoking and the members are so thankful for us. When I sold my car THEN I heard folks saying, "We knew you would". WHAT? They KNEW? And nobody TOLD me?

I don't know who these "we" people are you mention that are so condeming, I'm just glad there not in my church.

[skyblue888]

Ellen White wrote, "We may be active, we may do much work; but without love, such love as dwelt in the heart of Christ, we can never be numbered with the family of heaven." C.O.L.158.

The love that dwelt in the heart of Christ was the "hoarded love of eternity" (M.H.37) "the fullness of divine light and love and power." (P.K.594)

Anything short of that is not the love of God that is to be shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. (Rom.5:5)

The question is, How can we appropriate this unfathomable gift and how can we be sure that we have the genuine article?

The answer might surprise us as to how simple it may be:

"God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified Saviour. Love springs up in the heart." 1 S.M.354.

This love is the hoarded love of eternity and it is offered to us on the condition that we come to God just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of the crucified Saviour. It is that simple and this must be done daily.

If this hoarded love of eternity was dwelling in our hearts, God could finish the work upon the earth and cut it short in righteousness.

I am convinced that today not even one in one hundred, even among adventists, understands for himself this Bible truth on this subject which is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare.

sky

[phkrause]

There will always be those that condemn others for anything. The Adventist Church doesn't have an anopoly(sp) on condemning.

[skyblue888]

Like Jesus who condemned sin in the flesh!

[Lysimachus]

There will always be those that condemn others for anything. The Adventist Church doesn't have an anopoly(sp) on condemning.

Think you meant "a monopoly"

And you are right. Those who think Adventists are all about condemning others, have they been watching YouTube videos between Calvinists and Armenians? To the point of sending each other to hell? Have they been watching the lethal mayhem being exhibited between Preterists and Futurists? The fights I see going on among the Baptists, and other evangelicals makes us pale in comparison. I've spent enough time in a number of their gathers and participated enough in their forums to know.

[phkrause]

Think you meant "a monopoly"

Yes

Thanks

[jasd]

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if it's being used as test of fellowship, and denial grounds for Baptism,

In verity.

Me sighing.

[jasd]

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and I can tell you that what you describe is true of all churches, not merely SDAs. I've seen a lot of very friendsly SDA churches and some "cold" ones too. Same with non-SDA churches.

Good or bad - I get my churchiology from this forum - and go to .orgs for their potlucks, which are like dogmas and doctrines - some good and some bad.

I drive home from some with pleasant burps, and drive home - stopping for a burger and fries to take up

the slack of other potlucks. [/sheesh]

[John317]

Seems like you just go for the fish and the bread. Well, maybe not fish. But there's delicious vegetarian meatloaf or fri-chick.

[Lysimachus]

Now John317, fri-chick has eggs in it! You should know better! ;P