The 1260 Year Interpretation of Protestantism

[John317]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Here is what you actually wrote.

What I actually wrote is above. You are going to tell me your idea of what I actually wrote. But your idea is not the same as what I actually wrote.

Originally Posted By: miz3

What you are saying in general is that "paraphrases" are Ok and accurate.

Some are, for sure. Many portions of paraphrases are OK and accurate. We have paraphrases in the NT as well as in the Old, yet they are still the inspired Word of God. See Matt. 2: 23 for just one example.

Originally Posted By: miz3

When you cite the Septuagint you "infer" that all Versions in some way "paraphrase".

Absolutely false. I plainly make a distinction between literal tanslations and paraphrases. Some of the Septuagint is translated literally and other parts are paraphrases.

What I said is that no translation is perfect, and this is the truth. All translators-- and anyone who is fluent in more than one language-- freely acknowledge it.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Paraphrases are always "subjective" and thus are prone to being wrong. This is why true Bible study does not use "paraphrase translations" because they are fraught with too many errors.

This is not completely true, miz3.

When studying the Bible, it can be helpful to use a paraphrase, but one should always use a literal translation as the main text for study. In other words, while paraphrases can be helpful in understanding context and in helping one to understand the meaning of some words, it should always be compared and judged by the literal translations.

Quote:

You are saying the above in order to give credibility to the NCV which in fact has no credibility because it "adds" to the Word of God things that are not there.[/quote']

If we find that it does truly add things that are contrary to Scripture, then those contrary things should be rejected. But the question here-- relevant to Daniel 9: 24-27--- is whether the NCV is adding something that is contrary to the Hebrew text.

There's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater, is there? That is what you do when you throw out all the paraphrases or when you reject everything a paraphrase may give you in Daniel 9.

[John317]

Quote:

Is Isaiah 53 about Jesus Christ?

Did the New Testament validate that Isaiah chapter 53 was about Jesus Christ?

YES!

Very good.

This validates, of course, that a text such as Daniel 9 can be about Jesus Christ without mentioning Him by name.

It is proof that it is not valid reasoning to require that a passage mention Him by name in order to be about Him.

The fact is that Jesus Christ is all through the Old Testament Scriptures, yet He is not named a single time.

Therefore it makes no sense whatsoever to argue that Daniel 9 is not about Jesus Christ because it does not name Him.

You have just helped to establish that there's no reason for Daniel 9 to contain the name Jesus Christ.

[John317]

Its just that SDA "prophecy" doctrines are wrong because they are not Biblical.

SDA "prophecy" doctrines are tied to SDA 19th Century study which is filled with holes just like "swiss chess".

These are mere claims and conclusions, and you have yet to show them to be true.

No one here is claiming that all SDA prophetic interpretations have been correct. SDAs have made errors in our interpretations, of course.

[John317]

Does the New Testament validate that Daniel chapter nine was about Jesus Christ?

NO!

Mark 1:14, 15-- Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What "time" was fufilled?

What kind of "time" [kairos] is it speaking of?

Have you ever noticed that many Jews and even some non-Jews were aware that it was "time" for the Messiah to be born? Why?

See, for instance, Matt. 1: 2; 3: 2; Luke 2: 25-38.

Jesus knew precisely when He would be killed. Why? Because Daniel 9: 24-27 predicted exactly when it would happen. In fact, Jesus knew the very hour of his death because the Bible predicted it hundreds of years before it happened. That is why Jesus often said that it was not his "time" to die, and it is why the Gospels say the same thing.

[12tribes]

This is not a matter of choosing. Read the Bible 12 Tribes just as God wrote it. No additions, no twistings, no linguistic or grammatical gimmicks, no historical mumbo jumbo, etc.

Can you do this 12 Tribes?

I think you should take your own advice. You quote 1 or 2 verses then give a cartload of your own words. Do you agree that the Bible needs no interpreter? If yes then can you prove your theories by using the Bible and no comments?

[Lysimachus]

Let's not forget Matthew 18:22! Jesus was CLEARLY alluding to Daniel 9!

[Lysimachus]

You are a breath of fresh air 12tribes! Keep up the good work! (no offense to all the other SDA defenders in here...you're ALL a breath of fresh air... but I just had to say that because 12tribes is new, we need more apologists, and he is offering fresh and concise Biblical arguments in vindicating Biblical Adventism) :)

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Does the New Testament validate that Daniel chapter nine was about Jesus Christ?

NO!

Mark 1:14, 15-- Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What "time" was fufilled?

What kind of "time" [kairos] is it speaking of?

Have you ever noticed that many Jews and even some non-Jews were aware that it was "time" for the Messiah to be born? Why?

See, for instance, Matt. 1: 2; 3: 2; Luke 2: 25-38.

Jesus knew precisely when He would be killed. Why? Because Daniel 9: 24-27 predicted exactly when it would happen. In fact, Jesus knew the very hour of his death because the Bible predicted it hundreds of years before it happened. That is why Jesus often said that it was not his "time" to die, and it is why the Gospels say the same thing.

[miz3]

Quote:

Is Isaiah 53 about Jesus Christ?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Did the New Testament validate that Isaiah chapter 53 was about Jesus Christ?

YES!

Very good.

This validates, of course, that a text such as Daniel 9 can be about Jesus Christ without mentioning Him by name.

It is proof that it is not valid reasoning to require that a passage mention Him by name in order to be about Him.

The fact is that Jesus Christ is all through the Old Testament Scriptures, yet He is not named a single time.

Therefore it makes no sense whatsoever to argue that Daniel 9 is not about Jesus Christ because it does not name Him.

You have just helped to establish that there's no reason for Daniel 9 to contain the name Jesus Christ.

No you missed my whole point.

I said that Isaiah chapter fifty-three was about Christ because the NT validated it.

I also said that Daniel chapter nine could not be about Jesus Christ because the NT DID NOT VALIDATE IT!

Come on John317 get the facts straight.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Does the New Testament validate that Daniel chapter nine was about Jesus Christ?

NO!

Mark 1:14, 15-- Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What "time" was fufilled?

What kind of "time" [kairos] is it speaking of?

Have you ever noticed that many Jews and even some non-Jews were aware that it was "time" for the Messiah to be born? Why?

See, for instance, Matt. 1: 2; 3: 2; Luke 2: 25-38.

Jesus knew precisely when He would be killed. Why? Because Daniel 9: 24-27 predicted exactly when it would happen. In fact, Jesus knew the very hour of his death because the Bible predicted it hundreds of years before it happened. That is why Jesus often said that it was not his "time" to die, and it is why the Gospels say the same thing.

These texts are not referring in any way shape or form to Daniel chapter nine.

This more reaching by trying to stretch beyond any credibility some "remote word association". Sorry but this thin or rather nonexistent attempt does not even begin to cut it.

Shockingly flimsy.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

This is not a matter of choosing. Read the Bible 12 Tribes just as God wrote it. No additions, no twistings, no linguistic or grammatical gimmicks, no historical mumbo jumbo, etc.

Can you do this 12 Tribes?

I think you should take your own advice. You quote 1 or 2 verses then give a cartload of your own words. Do you agree that the Bible needs no interpreter? If yes then can you prove your theories by using the Bible and no comments?

I know that you cannot do this when talking about Daniel nine and neither can your allies who agree with you.

That is also why you and the others also write many of your own words.

[12tribes]

I know that you cannot do this when talking about Daniel nine and neither can your allies who agree with you.

That is also why you and the others also write many of your own words.

That is why what you teach is a theory But, Daniel 9 is about Christ and has been fulfilled and can be shown from the Bible

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I know that you cannot do this when talking about Daniel nine and neither can your allies who agree with you.

That is also why you and the others also write many of your own words.

That is why what you teach is a theory But, Daniel 9 is about Christ and has been fulfilled and can be shown from the Bible

Nope.

[John317]

These texts are not referring in any way shape or form to Daniel chapter nine.

This more reaching by trying to stretch beyond any credibility some "remote word association". Sorry but this thin or rather nonexistent attempt does not even begin to cut it.

Answer the questions:

Mark 1:14, 15-- Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What "time" was fufilled?

What kind of "time" [kairos] is it speaking of?

[ClubV12]

"Truth that has lost its power upon those who have long slighted its precious teaching, appears beautiful and attractive to those who are ready to walk in the light." {1888 1016.1} Letter 25B to Uriah Smith

If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right (Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 328).

Just some thoughts I wanted to share...

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

These texts are not referring in any way shape or form to Daniel chapter nine.

This more reaching by trying to stretch beyond any credibility some "remote word association". Sorry but this thin or rather nonexistent attempt does not even begin to cut it.

Answer the questions:

Mark 1:14, 15-- Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What "time" was fufilled?

What kind of "time" [kairos] is it speaking of?

"After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

I told you this text does not refer back to anything in Daniel nine. You are stretching into "never, never land" in trying to tie these two.

[John317]

Please answer the questions:

Mark 1:14, 15-- Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What "time" was fufilled?

What kind of "time" [kairos] is it speaking of?

Originally Posted By: miz3

"After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

I told you this text does not refer back to anything in Daniel nine. You are stretching into "never, never land" in trying to tie these two.

Yes, you did tell me, but that is merely making a claim. You have not shown that your claim is based on sound exigesis and reasoning in the Scriptures.

You are still not answering the question. You say those verses do not refer back to Daniel 9. Then what are they in reference to?

What "time" was fulfilled?

Deal with the Greek word for time, kairos. What is the significance of this word in the context of Mark 1: 15?

"The time has come" in not a literal rendering.

The original language is "peplhrotai ho kairos," and is literally translated, "the time is fulfilled."

"The time has come" is a paraphrase, and it doesn't convey the complete meaning of Jesus' words.

"Peplhrotai" is from the lexicon form, plhroo, Strongs #4137. It means "to fill," "make full," "fill up."

In Matt. 1: 22 and John 7: 8, kairos has to do with the fulfillment of prophecy.

It is different from chronological time, such as clock time.

And the word that "time" is translated from [kairos] points to a "destined time," as in Matt. 8: 29; 26: 18; Mark 1: 15; Luke 21: 24.

Therefore, there is every reason to believe that Mark 1: 15 is a reference to the fulfillment of prophetic time.

If you do not believe this, show from your analysis and reasoning in the Scriptures why it doesn't refer to destined time and what you believe Jesus meant by "the time is fulfilled."

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

Please answer the questions:

Mark 1:14, 15-- Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What "time" was fufilled?

What kind of "time" [kairos] is it speaking of?

Originally Posted By: miz3

"After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

I told you this text does not refer back to anything in Daniel nine. You are stretching into "never, never land" in trying to tie these two.

Yes, you did tell me, but that is merely making a claim. You have not shown that your claim is based on sound exigesis and reasoning in the Scriptures.

You are still not answering the question. You say those verses do not refer back to Daniel 9. Then what are they in reference to?

What "time" was fulfilled?

Deal with the Greek word for time, kairos. What is the significance of this word in the context of Mark 1: 15?

"The time has come" in not a literal rendering.

The original language is "peplhrotai ho kairos," and is literally translated, "the time is fulfilled."

"The time has come" is a paraphrase, and it doesn't convey the complete meaning of Jesus' words.

"Peplhrotai" is from the lexicon form, plhroo, Strongs #4137. It means "to fill," "make full," "fill up."

In Matt. 1: 22 and John 7: 8, kairos has to do with the fulfillment of prophecy.

It is different from chronological time, such as clock time.

And the word that "time" is translated from [kairos] points to a "destined time," as in Matt. 8: 29; 26: 18; Mark 1: 15; Luke 21: 24.

Therefore, there is every reason to believe that Mark 1: 15 is a reference to the fulfillment of prophetic time.

If you do not believe this, show from your analysis and reasoning in the Scriptures why it doesn't refer to destined time and what you believe Jesus meant by "the time is fulfilled."

You have not demonstrated that Mark chapter 1 IS CONNECTED to Daniel chapter nine.

You have only made a claim. Just because it uses the "words fulfilled" does not mean that it is a direct reference to Daniel nine.

Demonstrate in clear unambiguous terms that all can clearly see that Mark chapter one is directly referring to Daniel chapter nine.

[12tribes]

You have not demonstrated that Mark chapter 1 IS CONNECTED to Daniel chapter nine.

You have only made a claim. Just because it uses the "words fulfilled" does not mean that it is a direct reference to Daniel nine.

Demonstrate in clear unambiguous terms that all can clearly see that Mark chapter one is directly referring to Daniel chapter nine.

It is written in front of you and you still can't see it, I think your problem is that you do not want to see it

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You have not demonstrated that Mark chapter 1 IS CONNECTED to Daniel chapter nine.

You have only made a claim. Just because it uses the "words fulfilled" does not mean that it is a direct reference to Daniel nine.

Demonstrate in clear unambiguous terms that all can clearly see that Mark chapter one is directly referring to Daniel chapter nine.

It is written in front of you and you still can't see it, I think your problem is that you do not want to see it

One could say the same when I point out to you Daniel chapter nine and demonstrate its straight up language. Why do you refuse the "it is written in front of you in Daniel chapter nine and you still can't see it. I think your problem is that you do not want to see it".

[Stan]

Miz

Please use larger fonts sparingly, and by that maybe once a week on one post..

[miz3]

Miz

Please use larger fonts sparingly, and by that maybe once a week on one post..

I will try and be more sparing in my use of large fonts.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Mark 1:14, 15-- Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What "time" was fufilled?

What kind of "time" [kairos] is it speaking of?

You say those verses do not refer back to Daniel 9. Then what are they in reference to?

What "time" was fulfilled?

Deal with the Greek word for time, kairos. What is the significance of this word in the context of Mark 1: 15?

"The time has come" in not a literal rendering.

The original language is "peplhrotai ho kairos," and is literally translated, "the time is fulfilled."

"The time has come" is a paraphrase, and it doesn't convey the complete meaning of Jesus' words.

"Peplhrotai" is from the lexicon form, plhroo, Strongs #4137. It means "to fill," "make full," "fill up."

In Matt. 1: 22 and John 7: 8, kairos has to do with the fulfillment of prophecy.

It is different from chronological time, such as clock time.

And the word that "time" is translated from [kairos] points to a "destined time," as in Matt. 8: 29; 26: 18; Mark 1: 15; Luke 21: 24.

Therefore, there is every reason to believe that Mark 1: 15 is a reference to the fulfillment of prophetic time.

If you do not believe this, show from your analysis and reasoning in the Scriptures why it doesn't refer to destined time and what you believe Jesus meant by "the time is fulfilled."

Originally Posted By: miz3

....Just because it uses the "words fulfilled" does not mean that it is a direct reference to Daniel nine.

Doesn't it make sense to you that God would tell His people when it was time for the Messiah to come?

After all, God has given us plenty of evidence that it is about time for Christ to return the second time.

That's how God is. He warned the world of the coming Flood. He also warned the Israelites of the judgment to come before the Babylonians and other enemies invaded their land.

The fact is that many people living about the time of Christ's birth were expecting the Messiah to come soon. Their expectations were based on the prophecies, and one of the key prophecies is Daniel 9: 24-27.

Please review the part above that's in red and answer the questions.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

....Just because it uses the "words fulfilled" does not mean that it is a direct reference to Daniel nine.

Doesn't it make sense to you that God would tell His people when it was time for the Messiah to come?

After all, God has given us plenty of evidence that it is about time for Christ to return the second time.

That's how God is. He warned the world of the coming Flood. He also warned the Israelites of the judgment to come before the Babylonians and other enemies invaded their land.

The fact is that many people living about the time of Christ's birth were expecting the Messiah to come soon. Their expectations were based on the prophecies, and one of the key prophecies is Daniel 9: 24-27.

Please review the part above that's in red and answer the questions.

1. You will have to find some other OT reference to make your point because Daniel chapter nine does not make it. It also does not make it by trying to link Mark chapter one to Daniel chapter nine by using a "simple word association". That is just toooooo weak.

Although your questions are interesting about God warning us of the Messiah's coming doesn't mean that you just grab any old text and twist it to fit what you want.

2. As to the Second Coming the evidence keeps shifting with the current cycle of events. No one knows when Jesus Christ will return the Second Time. Jesus Christ promised He would return but told us only the Father knew when.

When Christ comes He comes. We are told that whether He comes during our watch or not we are to be READY! I am READY! So if Jesus Christ comes today, I am ready. If Jesus does not come today, I am ready. That is all that counts. The key is to be READY, not wasting time and energy looking for this sign and that sign which with each passing day changes like a "quick change artist".

We can talk about what "being READY" means?

3. Could you show me where in the Bible it says that God warned the people about the Flood in which God saved Noah?

4. Where in the Bible does it say that those looking for the Messiah in the days of Christ's birth were doing so on the basis of Daniel chapter nine?

[Aliensanctuary]

This may be a dumb question, and sorry to interrupt the current discussion.

What year does the 2300 day prophecy begin?

Dan 8:

13. I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one say to the speaker, "How long is this vision to be, of perpetual sacrifice, of horrifying iniquity, of sanctuary and army trampled underfoot?"

14. The first replied, "Until two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings have gone by: then the sanctuary will have its rights restored."

It seems to me that the 2300 days begins when the perpetual sacrifice is stopped by the little/big horn that sprung up from one of the 4 little horns of the he-goat. The Sanctuary is overrun and trampled upon and the perpetual sacrifices are halted until the sanctuary is restored 6.38 years later. That's my understanding of it, a future time period lasting just over 6 years.

Now, if we believe in day-for-a-year theory and the perpetual sacrifices were halted in AD 70, 2300 years + 70 years = AD 2370. Why would someone pick another start year for this method of interpretation?