Buying groceries on sabbath

[John317]

I haven't always loved God or Jesus but I do now. How did that happen? It began with my recognition of God's command that I love Him.

As I said, God doesn't give a command without also providing the power to obey and fulfill the command.

If you always go on denying that God did not command humans to love Him and saying that this command does not apply to you, you won't be able to face the truth about God's relationship to all human beings.

Originally Posted By: fccool

I don't think that you understand this, but what you are essentially saying is that God compels us to love him as means of loving him. He stirs up some "feeling and call" through the Holy Spirit and us recognizing a command to do so. We either reject that call to love, or we accept it and love God. Love can't be forced, neither can it force itself on you.

I can tell you why I love God. It is not because the magic of the Holy Spirit. It was not because He commanded me to. It's because I love people, I love what he created, and I love what He is about .

No, I am not saying God compels us to love Him. Of course not. GOD DOES NOT COMPEL US TO LOVE HIM. And of course love can't be forced.

If you think I'm saying God compels us to love Him or that love can be forced, you are completely wrong. That is just the opposite of what I am saying. I have never said that God forces us to love.

What I am saying is that the Bible teaches that we only love others and love God because God gives us the ability to love.

Humans wouldn't love without God's Spirit. Every good thing that people do is the result of the influence of God's Holy Spirit.

You love people, whether you know it or not, because of God's influence in your life.

[John317]

Do you believe it's important that humans worship and obey the Creator of the universe?

Do you believe that assuming that such a God exists, He has a right to command worship and obedience?

Originally Posted By: cardw

I can't imagine an all knowing god needing or requiring worship. It would take one massive ego to require that. I can't imagine an all knowing god even caring about what we thought about him or not. That is simply not something an advanced being would be concerned with.

It isn't that God "requires" worship, Richard. It is that as our Creator, God knows what humans need. It is like the car manufacturer knowing what cars need because they designed the car. They know what it requires in order to run well.

Everyone worships something or someone bigger than themselves. God put that need and desire within the human heart.

If we don't worship God, we will worship something else or someone else.

We become like the God or the thing or person we worship. That is one reason it's important to worship the true, living God.

Does this make any sense to you?

[John317]

I apologize, if that's the case.

Forget it-- no problem, friend.

That is perfectly understandable how you got my views mixed up with someone else's. It's not the first time and I'm positive it won't be the last. :-)

[fccool]

Quote:

GOD DOES NOT COMPEL US TO LOVE HIM. And of course love can't be forced.

Quote:

Every good thing that people do is the result of the influence of God's Holy Spirit.

Quote:

in·flu·ence - the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others

[John317]

No one alive can escape the influence of God.

But the point is that He doesn't force people to make the choices they make. He won't force you to accept Him. He won't force you to love Him or to accept Christ.

God helps everyone! Without Him there would be no life and no love.

[fccool]

Quote:

Everyone worships something or someone bigger than themselves. God put that need and desire within the human heart.

Can you define worship, in a way that would differentiate it from admiration of photography, extreme interest in something, appreciation and honor of someone's ability, for example, or a appreciation of aesthetic beauty, or infatuation?

How do you personally define "worship" . I hear the above sentence way too much to simply believe it. I don't say that it's not close to truth, but I don't believe it's accurate.

It's one of those popular pulpit sayings that people like to repeat as a deep truth.

[fccool]

No one alive can escape the influence of God.

But the point is that He doesn't force people to make the choices they make. He won't force you to accept Him. He won't force you to love Him or to accept Christ.

God helps everyone! Without Him there would be no life and no love.

There's a difference between me influencing the way you think through intelligent means of understanding and experience. I think there's a totally different concept of influence of being "possessed", or nagged by some feeling o implanted thought.

If mechanics of God's influence is not on a conscious level, then it's no different that Ad people trying to influence you by training you to respond to a certain feeling. That's called manipulation.

How does God influence us? Is it through manipulation of our emotional and mental state? Or is it through reason and understanding that we can acknowledge and process i.e. through living and breathing people and concepts.

The way you present the influence is very close to me recording "You must love _____" message on the loop and putting it under a pillow of some woman who I want to be loved by . And then when having date with her and proposing on the spot, accuse her of not responding to my call of love ))

She does not even know me. How can she decide to love or reject me?

[ClubV12]

Spiritual things are spiritually understood, through the Holy Spirit impressing our heart with truth or just a deeper revelation of the love of God.

I've heard it said there are four created beings that sit/stand/move around the throne of God. There only thing they do, they only thing they want to do, is praise God, worship Him constantly. I can understand that, I can see the beauty in it, if so allowed, I would do the same. Sometimes, as I'm studying spiritual things some gem of truth becomes clearer to my understanding. I have to get right up, if I'm sitting, and start praising God! Sometimes I sing right out loud! The joy and love I feel cannot be repressed, God is so wonderful, I HAVE to proclaim it.

Worship doesn't have to be in a church, it can take place anytime, anywhere.

I love to recount the various names of the Saviour, to say them, to write them, to sing them, to share them.

The Lord mighty in battle, the Lion of Judah, the Lamb of God, the Light unto our path, the Saviour, so tender and merciful. Praise His name! Worship comes from the heart.

[John317]

Sure.

When the Bible commands us to worship God, it is talking about glorifying God with our lives, particularly through obedience to Him as our Savior and Lord, our Creator and Redeemer. The Bible connects the true worship of God with obedience to God's commandments out of love and honor freely and intelligently given, recognizing that He alone is worthy.

It's important to notice that true worship of God necessitates the power of the Holy Spirit, for we cannot obey God without His Spirit.

Rev. 4:10, 11-- The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Rev. 14: 6,7--And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

WORSHIP, n. [see Worth.]

...4. Chiefly and eminently, the act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being; or the reverence and homage paid to him in religious exercises, consisting in adoration, confession, prayer, thanksgiving and the like.

The worship of God is an eminent part of religion.

Prayer is a chief part of religious worship.

...1. To adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration.

Thou shalt worship no other God. Exodus 34:14.

[BobRyan]

No one alive can escape the influence of God.

But the point is that He doesn't force people to make the choices they make.

I recall discussing this same point on another SDA board in 2009.

Interesting point.

God "draws all mankind" unto Himself John 12:32.

God "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

God sends Christ who "is the light of the world" and that light "enlightens everyone of mankind" John 1.

And so as John317 points out - no one can escape being influenced by God in some way.

But all have free will to turn to darkness instead of light if they so choose.

in Christ,

Bob

[cardw]

God "draws all mankind" unto Himself John 12:32.

God "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

God sends Christ who "is the light of the world" and that light "enlightens everyone of mankind" John 1.

And so as John317 points out - no one can escape being influenced by God in some way.

But all have free will to turn to darkness instead of light if they so choose.

I never, in all the time I was a believer, felt what I could identify as the Holy Spirit. I would say that the holy spirit was in my life, but I had no way to tell if that was true. I tried to believe and do everything I read in the Bible and in Ellen White. I did this for years and as far as I could tell any enlightenment that came was stuff I learned on my own.

I have to conclude that either god was excluding me or Christians are making it up. And as far as I can discern that seems to be what is happening.

There is a lot of quoting of the Bible, but a black hole of any evidence.

And generally those who hold this belief tend to say that I have turned to darkness. As far as I can tell that hasn't happened either.

And when we look at a belief system that even has to ask the question, "Is it Ok to buy groceries on the Sabbath" I think we can easily dismiss it as being enlightened.

[Overaged]

Funny you should mention that Doug, I'm in the middle of a major remodel. New bath and a gutted kitchen, knocking down walls. Getting ready for Sabbath, lately, means moving some drywall out of the living room, hiding the paint cans and hoping construction dust hasn't messed up my suit to much.

Why on earth would you have to hide the paint cans? God knows you are renovating anyways; so why bother?

[Overaged]

Why are you so obsessed with responding (or is it refuting?) what cardw posted?

Let it go man!

I think he has already said that you do not understand what he said.

This has gotten all rather silly, IMHO.

OK, I will leave now so you can have the last word...

By the looks of your vociferous post; it is evidential that the lacl of understanding is not where you are pointing your finger. Try checking your other three fingers and see what direction they are pointing in.

[Overaged]

I don't write only for posters but for people who come on the Forum and read the threads. So it doesn't matter if cardw is interested in my answer. Maybe he isn't, but that is not the point. The point is that it deserves an answer. I think those posts need to be answered because readers would like to see them answered.

[John317]

There's a difference between me influencing the way you think through intelligent means of understanding and experience. I think there's a totally different concept of influence of being "possessed", or nagged by some feeling o implanted thought.

....

How does God influence us? Is it through manipulation of our emotional and mental state? Or is it through reason and understanding that we can acknowledge and process i.e. through living and breathing people and concepts.

The way you present the influence is very close to me recording "You must love _____" message on the loop and putting it under a pillow of some woman who I want to be loved by . ....

When I say that God is influencing us-- and that He influenced my life even when I wasn't aware of it-- I don't mean that God forces our will or that He makes us do things we don't want to do. He really has no interest in worship and love that isn't freely and intelligent given.

You're right that God influences us through the use of reasoning and our understanding. Look how God influenced people in the Bible, such as Abraham and Joseph and David.

When we get to heaven, I have a hunch that we will be surprised to learn all the different ways that God influenced us.

Did you know that God's angels try to influence us, but we are able to resist their influence, just as we can resist the Holy Spirit. I don't know why anyone would choose to resist God, though-- I mean I know why I did for a long time, but what I'm saying is that I can see now how badly mistaken I was, and I sure don't want to makes those mistakes again. God doesn't want anything for us that we wouldn't want ourselves if only we had God's wisdom and foresight.

[John317]

...And when we look at a belief system that even has to ask the question, "Is it Ok to buy groceries on the Sabbath" I think we can easily dismiss it as being enlightened.

Based on your memory of the Sabbath and of the things you learned from studying, what do you believe is the purpose of the Sabbath? What's it good for?

[Overaged]

I just bought groceries at sabbath because currently i am bodybuilding. However i don t know if God is okay with that. What did EGW had to say about buying on sabbath?

You ask a fair question considering the poor job some of us more "established" Adventists have done, in relating the practical truths of the sabbath doctrine. I remember a short while ago; an elder in one of our churches heard that I took a factory job for a while; and the first thing he said to me next time he saw me; (and in front of others) "DID YOU TELL THEM ABOUT YOUR SABBATH?" He even said it in a fairly raised tone of voice, and I just thought; "wow."

Too often, we spend too much time and effort in "protecting" the sabbath; as if it actually was "our" sabbath; but it seems to me the Bible is clear: It is "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." (Exodus 20:10, Deut 5:14)

When I first became an Adventist; the way I kept sabbath was considered "rebellious" and yet I in all honesty thought it was OK. I believe my "sin" at that time was going to the gymn in the afternoon. I have some medical problems that are improved with a little exercise, and I honestly thought nothing of it. Well; soon enough a church member found out that I did that some Sabbaths, and they marched right up to me in church and said "I would never do that on Sabbath." That dude quit going to church years ago so that answers that. We should stop wrestling with people over Sabbath do's and dont's. It's gotten ridiculous, and has made Sabbath a curse, rather than a blessing, in so many cases.

I don't keep Sabbath the way I used to when I first went to Church; but looking back; I can't see why God would not have accepted my Sabbath worship and activities, as my honest, heart-felt response; just as much as He does now.

Isa_9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

What I have outlined in red is particularly true about the Sabbath. Don't let others make you feel guilty over the Sabbath. Study your Bible and do what you understand.

[Parade Orange]

OVERAGED

he hides the paint cans so he can play hide and seek with them after the Sabbath as a Special after hours treat!

why ask why hide the paint cans?

u funny

lol

U THINK HE DONT KNOW GOD KNOWS HE IS PAINTING

REALLY?

why do anything small or big?

cause he wants to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

why hide the paint cans!

good question!!!!

WHY WHY WHY!

o dear im falling on the floor laughing

maybe he will write a BLOG on why hiding the paint cans

so much to ponder

so many layers

it cant possibly be cause he felt like it

or uhhhh ..wanted to have at least one day or weekend , when paint not being used, he can have a sense of normalcy in his own home on the SABBATH

or they might offend the impromptu bible study gathering delicate sensibilities ' oh dear Parden the mess!'

maybe mother is coming to visit and faints at the slightest sight of CANARY YELLOW drip on a can!

goodness gracious

[Overaged]

maybe mother is coming to visit and faints at the slightest sight of CANARY YELLOW drip on a can!

LOL; you may be right.

[Parade Orange]

TY for taking it in the spirit is given

i crack myself up

[Overaged]

Well; you crack me up too. LOL. But seriously; I am really wondering about hiding those paint cans, Can't wait to hear the explanation! (the real one)

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...And when we look at a belief system that even has to ask the question, "Is it Ok to buy groceries on the Sabbath" I think we can easily dismiss it as being enlightened.

Based on your memory of the Sabbath and of the things you learned from studying, what do you believe is the purpose of the Sabbath? What's it good for?

It is much simpler to be aware of the present than to go through all these mental gymnastics. All of this is trivia. It's a bunch of mental chatter and noise.

Do you know when I rest?

When I'm tired.

[ClubV12]

Why I hide the paint cans, and other "stuff". During the week the living room accumulates all kinds of construction stuff, a ladder here, a hammer laying on the coffee table (oops, the Pero table), an old rag, some paint cans.

I like to have at least ONE room in the house somewhat presentable for Sabbath so I don't have to look at all the stuff. It frees the mind. Plus, the angels might need a place to sit and stay for awhile.... :)

[Overaged]

Why I hide the paint cans, and other "stuff". During the week the living room accumulates all kinds of construction stuff, a ladder here, a hammer laying on the coffee table (oops, the Pero table), an old rag, some paint cans.

I like to have at least ONE room in the house somewhat presentable for Sabbath so I don't have to look at it all the stuff. Plus, the angels might need a place to sit and stay for awhile....

LOL' well that makes perfect sense. It just sounded a bit odd when I first read it.

I am a drywall taper right now and I know all about the construction messes from what you are saying!

[phkrause]

You ask a fair question considering the poor job some of us more "established" Adventists have done, in relating the practical truths of the sabbath doctrine. I remember a short while ago; an elder in one of our churches heard that I took a factory job for a while; and the first thing he said to me next time he saw me; (and in front of others) "DID YOU TELL THEM ABOUT YOUR SABBATH?" He even said it in a fairly raised tone of voice, and I just thought; "wow."

Too often, we spend too much time and effort in "protecting" the sabbath; as if it actually was "our" sabbath; but it seems to me the Bible is clear: It is "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." (Exodus 20:10, Deut 5:14)

When I first became an Adventist; the way I kept sabbath was considered "rebellious" and yet I in all honesty thought it was OK. I believe my "sin" at that time was going to the gymn in the afternoon. I have some medical problems that are improved with a little exercise, and I honestly thought nothing of it. Well; soon enough a church member found out that I did that some Sabbaths, and they marched right up to me in church and said "I would never do that on Sabbath." That dude quit going to church years ago so that answers that. We should stop wrestling with people over Sabbath do's and dont's. It's gotten ridiculous, and has made Sabbath a curse, rather than a blessing, in so many cases.

I don't keep Sabbath the way I used to when I first went to Church; but looking back; I can't see why God would not have accepted my Sabbath worship and activities, as my honest, heart-felt response; just as much as He does now.

Isa_9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

What I have outlined in red is particularly true about the Sabbath. Don't let others make you feel guilty over the Sabbath. Study your Bible and do what you understand.

your post very much. I think the problem is we've heard that from every side that it just becomes a part of our lives. I don't think its a bad thing, but it can become a crutch for many, or maybe even legalistic.