Buying groceries on sabbath

[BobRyan]

God "draws all mankind" unto Himself John 12:32.

God "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

God sends Christ who "is the light of the world" and that light "enlightens everyone of mankind" John 1.

And so as John317 points out - no one can escape being influenced by God in some way.

But all have free will to turn to darkness instead of light if they so choose.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I never, in all the time I was a believer, felt what I could identify as the Holy Spirit. I would say that the holy spirit was in my life, but I had no way to tell if that was true.

Christ points this out in John 3 - saying that very often a lost person will not know the Holy Spirit - and yet the Holy Spirit influences them - drawing them in, convicting them of sin and of their need of salvation to that they may have eternal life.

Once they are actually born again - the Holy Spirit adds another function. The one in Romans 8:14-16 "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh.. then are you the children of God and the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God - crying out "Abba Father"!"

The fruit of the Holy Spirit in Gal 5 is "Love joy and peace..." and other things as well.

In John 14 Christ said "PEACE I give unto you NOT as the World Gives" -

The Spirit of God brings a peace "that passes understanding" as Paul says in Philippians 4.

Many do not take the time to experience the Holy Spirit in their lives and eventually drift away from the faith.

How long does one wait before deciding that it's not going to happen. I was a believer for a good 20+ years. I think that is plenty of time to wait for the Holy Spirit. I was known as a spiritual person because I really was trying to follow the instructions. So it wasn't because a lack of following or obeying. I have no interest in rebellion even today. My interest is in truth and results.

To me, no results means no truth. And apparently Jesus taught the same thing. It is by one's fruits that you know them.

I would say that I was never at peace while I was a believer.

I would say that I feel joy and peace as a non-believer that apparently passes all understanding of believers. LOL

I still think you are making it up.

When I talk about what I believe I reference my own experience. I don't have to decode a book to try and find out what is true. If Christianity was true you would have much more convincing evidence.

[fccool]

Quote:

I never, in all the time I was a believer, felt what I could identify as the Holy Spirit. I would say that the holy spirit was in my life, but I had no way to tell if that was true.

"be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord" (Eph. 5:19)

"Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God" (3:16)

Quote:

I still think you are making it up.

People make up whatever they need to validate their beliefs. It's a matter of subconscious mind reconciling deeply believed conscious.

For example:

[ClubV12]

Ah the guy in the video is an amatuer.

Just wait till the evil doer does some of his tricks, calling fire from the sky, healing the sick, working miracles. We aint seen nothing yet, he will be so convincing if possible even the very elect will be fooled!

If your confused on how the Holy Spirit works now, whew, you won't have a chance to discern evil from good when that day comes.

[fccool]

I'm not the one who thinks that Holy Spirit works through "feelings", or "silent whisper". It works through understanding, which is the Spirit of God. You can't know God in any other way, you can't know your own condition in any other way, you can't be comforted or comfort other in any other way.

Spirit works through understanding, which is initiated by means of experiencing true love. None of the fake romantic stuff.

[ClubV12]

Truly, we need to move from principle, not feelings, not what we see, not what we hear. But solid principles as taught in the bible and expanded upon by Sister White.

However, I leave room for "feelings", for I have FELT the power of God in my life in some profound ways. Like the Friday evening when it finally came to me, through the Holy Spirit, a greater understanding of righteousness by faith. At a time when, like Jacob, I was wresting with the Lord and needed a blessing. That was granted and I truly felt the most wonderful peace and acceptance, the love of God filled my soul and I rejoiced and praised His name. Right out loud, with tears of joy and a smile! :)

[fccool]

There's nothing wrong with feeling joy that follows some realization. That's how we made, and that's how we work. We don't "feel" things outside of our mental capacity to process them.

The issue is ascribing "feeling" to some supernatural presence, which by definition we don't have an ability to feel or differentiate. How do you know that you "feel God", and not "feeling Satan"?

Sort of like "I think I felt the radio waves of TV station #29 just invoking a feeling of Joy. Opra!!!!!!!"

[cardw]

There's nothing wrong with feeling joy that follows some realization. That's how we made, and that's how we work. We don't "feel" things outside of our mental capacity to process them.

The issue is ascribing "feeling" to some supernatural presence, which by definition we don't have an ability to feel or differentiate. How do you know that you "feel God", and not "feeling Satan"?

Sort of like "I think I felt the radio waves of TV station #29 just invoking a feeling of Joy. Opra!!!!!!!"

If we are to tease out the truth by reading the Bible I think we done a pretty poor job of it since there are over 40,000 different versions of Christianity each thinking that they understand what the truth is.

If we are talking about reason here then Christianity fails miserably as a reasonable evidence based idea. Without feelings of fear, shame, and ecstasy religion wouldn't exist.

What is reasonable about killing someone because they don't observe a day of rest? With an immortal body of what need is rest in your view of heaven?

This artificial importance given to the 7th day Sabbath isn't based on any reasonable assessment of value. There is nothing that I can observe in terms of harm around not observing the Sabbath that would warrant a death penalty.

You have to make stuff up to come to any "understanding" around all the trivial debates around what one can and can't do on the Sabbath.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I never, in all the time I was a believer, felt what I could identify as the Holy Spirit. I would say that the holy spirit was in my life, but I had no way to tell if that was true.

Christ points this out in John 3 - saying that very often a lost person will not know the Holy Spirit - and yet the Holy Spirit influences them - drawing them in, convicting them of sin and of their need of salvation to that they may have eternal life.

Once they are actually born again - the Holy Spirit adds another function. The one in Romans 8:14-16 "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh.. then are you the children of God and the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God - crying out "Abba Father"!"

The fruit of the Holy Spirit in Gal 5 is "Love joy and peace..." and other things as well.

In John 14 Christ said "PEACE I give unto you NOT as the World Gives" -

The Spirit of God brings a peace "that passes understanding" as Paul says in Philippians 4.

Many do not take the time to experience the Holy Spirit in their lives and eventually drift away from the faith.

[BobRyan]

This artificial importance given to the 7th day Sabbath isn't based on any reasonable assessment of value. There is nothing that I can observe in terms of harm around not observing the Sabbath that would warrant a death penalty.

You have declared yourself to be lost - but you say that you were in the church for 20 years before coming to this point. So keeping the whole thing in context - surely you remember from the days when you were attending church - that our appeal to the lost is never "better behavior for lost people" or "more correct doctrine for lost people". We do not insist on "debating the sabbath with the lost" as if this is the real problem that they have and that a "sabbath observing lost person" is better off than a non-Sabbath observing lost person. That has never been our claim.

The one and ONLY step for the lost person is to accept Christ as their savior.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

You have declared yourself to be lost - but you say that you were in the church for 20 years before coming to this point. So keeping the whole thing in context - surely you remember from the days when you were attending church - that our appeal to the lost is never "better behavior for lost people" or "more correct doctrine for lost people". We do not insist on "debating the sabbath with the lost" as if this is the real problem that they have and that a "sabbath observing lost person" is better off than a non-Sabbath observing lost person. That has never been our claim.

The one and ONLY step for the lost person is to accept Christ as their savior.

in Christ,

Bob

Excellent points Bob

[phkrause]

If we are to tease out the truth by reading the Bible I think we done a pretty poor job of it since there are over 40,000 different versions of Christianity each thinking that they understand what the truth is.

If we are talking about reason here then Christianity fails miserably as a reasonable evidence based idea. Without feelings of fear, shame, and ecstasy religion wouldn't exist.

What is reasonable about killing someone because they don't observe a day of rest? With an immortal body of what need is rest in your view of heaven?

This artificial importance given to the 7th day Sabbath isn't based on any reasonable assessment of value. There is nothing that I can observe in terms of harm around not observing the Sabbath that would warrant a death penalty.

You have to make stuff up to come to any "understanding" around all the trivial debates around what one can and can't do on the Sabbath.

Not sure about 40,000 different versions of Christianity, the only one I know of is in the Bible. Just because people have made the Bible to adhere to what they want it to say doesn't make it the correct version of Christianity.

[Overaged]

This "reasonable assessment of value" that you proffer as the carrot to hold in front of the world is an elusive ethereal red herring if I ever saw one You offer the number 40,000 as the alleged number of versions of Christianity but do you know how many more versions of so called "reasonable value" there are floating around out there? It's more than you can count! But, in this case, the "reasonable value" would be the fact that it is Gods Word and for CONVICTED Christians His Word has more than reasonable value

[fccool]

Quote:

If we are to tease out the truth by reading the Bible I think we done a pretty poor job of it since there are over 40,000 different versions of Christianity each thinking that they understand what the truth is.

If we are talking about reason here then Christianity fails miserably as a reasonable evidence based idea. Without feelings of fear, shame, and ecstasy religion wouldn't exist.

Perhaps the version that we have today. It does not mean that it can't.

I don't think Biblical narrative is to lead us to the Truth. Biblical narrative is a parable that relays some meaning through perhaps exaggerated History in many cases. Some of it is literal. Some of it is symbolic. Some of it is exaggerated, just like any film that you see, or a book that you read is exaggerated.

It does not mean that it does not contain the principles of truth. The problem is with people taking it apart verse by verse and trying to build some sort of systematic theology without taking into account metaphors, exaggeration that was used and understood in both language and culture, and overall historic context and the writers.

Quote:

What is reasonable about killing someone because they don't observe a day of rest? With an immortal body of what need is rest in your view of heaven?

To be honest, I don't see anything reasonable about it. I just does not seem reasonable. At the same time, it does not seem reasonable to love those who kick a boot in your face. Why would anyone want to?

Reason depends on completeness of information that may change certain perspective. Lack of information may seem like a lack of reason.

For some people it may seem unreasonable to jump out of an airplane with a backpack strapped to ones back, until they are relayed that the backpack contains folded cloth that parasails them to the ground.

Quote:

This artificial importance given to the 7th day Sabbath isn't based on any reasonable assessment of value. There is nothing that I can observe in terms of harm around not observing the Sabbath that would warrant a death penalty.

There's more to it than it may seem. The word Shabbat etymologically gets it's meaning from the word "Seven" "Sheva". Shaba also meanse to "swear" as in take an oath, or make a promise. "Saba" is a word that demotes completeness, or fullness.

In its etymology along it carries an idea of certain "promise of completeness". That's what it was literally to people who understood Hebrew language. In Russian there too many of these things that I actually understand etymologically only by being withdrawn from the culture.

Bog = God

Bogatiy = Walthy (but means full of God as far as root meaning)

Bogatyr' = Strong Person (but means strength by God)

There're a lot of things that may seem meaningless and arbitrary, but the original etymological context is quite different in a way that we understand or use things. So it may seem a bit silly.

Overall, Shabbat is an oath, or a promise. It's a two-way oath or promise of completeness. Sort of like a marriage vow. What should happen during "Shabbat" is not merely "not doing something". There were plenty of things that people were allowed to do. They were not to use it as an excuse to help out a person in trouble, or even an animal in trouble. I think it should say something.

Shabbat is about really one thing, and that's the reason it was set aside for - a reminder to understand. It was not about "not working", or "not buying", or "going to Church". Overall it's about a promise of completeness and fullness that comes through deeper understanding. So, it was a time set up in any culture to have deeper understanding of both humanity and God.

Quote:

You have to make stuff up to come to any "understanding" around all the trivial debates around what one can and can't do on the Sabbath.

You don't have to make that stuff up. The issue is that when one approaches it from position of "you are not to do this", or "this is the day we worship"... it looses meaning. It was NOT a day of worship. I think that Adventism gets mixed up in the whole "worship" deal. That's not what the feasts and the holydays were about. These were not about worship. These were about reflection and reminder.

In case of Shabbat, it was a reminder to take time to connect and understand. God does not desire mindless "You are so awesome! Let me kiss your feet" type of stuff. He desires understanding, from which flows empathy and love... and all of the good stuff.

[fccool]

There's a Russian word "Zazralis'", which denotes gluttony that kills appreciation for certain foods. One would eat so much of all other junk, that when you give great food to them that's healthy and delicious, they refuse it.

I sort of think that's the state of Modern Christianity. They take in so much extra baggage, that when it comes to the roots and meaning of things, they can't take it without some ketchup and coke to enhance that taste.

The Biblical message was not that complex. It was simple, as it was given to simple people. They could not read the 40 books, and 40,000 periodicals. They could not read 1, yet they were to understand the message of God. How do you think they did it? It was simple. It did not have all of the extra junk attached today.

Modern Christians have too much time on their hands if they have all of the time in the world to dispute the doctrine, which reminds me. I seriously need to quit this forum :)

[ClubV12]

All this high falutin' big word college talk sure makes christianity sound complicated. It isn't, it's simple enough for a child to understand. :)

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

How long does one wait before deciding that it's not going to happen. I was a believer for a good 20+ years.

We have some people in the church to this very day claiming to be believers for years - who have never taken the time to experience Romans 8:15-16. The Holy Spirit is not asking for 20 years, or 20 days, or 20 hours.. Had you given 20 minutes a shot in a truly converted manner you would have found this...(as all of us have found who have tried it)

Quote:

1T 163 "The hope of eternal life is not to be received upon slight grounds. It is a subject to be settled between God and your own soul - settled for eternity. A supposed hope, and nothing more, will prove your ruin"

"Determine to know the WORST of your case. Ascertain IF you have an inheritance on high. Deal TRULY with your own soul".

"Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life"

"Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for

salvation AND the sweet EVIDENCE is OBTAINED of pardoned sin"

Since you are to stand or fall by the word of God, it is to that word you must look for testimony in your case. There you can see what is required of you to become a Christian. Do not lay off your armor, nor leave the battle field until you have obtained the victory, and triumph in your Redeemer.

1T 158-164.

By your own words - you merely had "a supposed hope - and nothing more".

[fccool]

Quote:

I never told myself that I was saved because, like I have been saying, there was no evidence. I never felt the "witness of pardoning grace." Oh yeah, we aren't supposed to rely on our feelings.

Well without the evidence of this feeling of being pardoned, what do I have left. Oh yeah, the brilliant and clear explanation of the Bible. Which explanation? Yours?

All I can say is that I feel for you. It sort of reminded me of the little fad we've had back in Ukraine in 90s. There were these "3d notebook covers" that you supposed to look closely for a minute, and then somehow you would see an amazing 3D mushroom, or a horse, or some object. And all of the kids would stare at it, and then would exclaim "There, I see it!" It's a mushroom. And one by one they would see the mushroom in all of its glory.

The thing is, for the life of me, I could not see it. I would stare at it for minutes from different angles, and I just could not. I thought there was something wrong with me, because the kids waiting their turn would get impatient and then rip it out of my hands, look at it for a couple seconds and say "Yeah! That's so cool!".

I felt a bit inadequate, and I actually faked it. I would walk over and pick one up and say "Yeah, a horse! I see it". I did not. At times I simply imagined what it would look like, and then I would "see it" through my own imagination.

Well, those things were so ridiculous that they eventually were banned. On top of that, they were fake. There was no "encoded objects" in the mess of colors. It was a marketing ploy that worked through peer pressure. But, even when teachers would tell the kids that there was nothing to see, they denied it, and they swore that they've seen it.

The point is that some things can be "real", simply because we feel a need to make them real.

But honest approach does reveal the truth of the matter, no matter how isolated or laughed at it is.

I think you are on the right track, and you are exactly where you need to be at this point of time, because there's a reason you are there.

Quote:

You haven't told me anything that I haven't tried or read. Believe me, as a true believer, I took all this very seriously. And I had to be honest with myself when there was no evidence at all that god answered my prayers for salvation. None.

So don't tell me that I was claiming to be saved. You have no idea the kind of suffering that occurs when one believes they are abandoned by god.

We are taught to approach God as the same type of jumbled up 3D drawing on the notebook. If you put your eyes correctly just the right distance, and you do all of the right things, then you will see Him in all of His glory, and you will feel all of these wonderful things. And then series of miracles will happen in your life, from money coming your way as return for you tithes, and your marriage betterment, and your relationships and your health.

So, when this marketing ploy does not live up to all of the described, many people justify their investment by faking it. I don't think that many even realize that they do when they say that "God told me to turn here.", or "I've prayed for a job, and God answered my prayer".

You can't blame them though. They need a validation of their investment. If it's not there, then what they "bought" seems like a waste.

But, in the end, arguing about it is a bit of a waste. It's very much like arguing about the contents of the box that we've never seen inside of.

- There's a pencil there

- No, there's a rubber duck

- I'm telling you, there's a pencil

In the end, both are probably wrong What matters in the end is whether our collective (and individual) lives are better as a result of certain belief. Are we more content, less judgmental, more encouraging, less fearful and manipulative, and more giving?

[ClubV12]

"You have no idea the kind of suffering that occurs when one believes they are abandoned by god."

Actually,,, I do know, it's like death itself, which would be a welcome relief from that torture.

I wish you the very best cardw.

[John317]

...We should stop wrestling with people over Sabbath do's and dont's. It's gotten ridiculous, and has made Sabbath a curse, rather than a blessing, in so many cases.

Very true.

I talk about it here on the Forum, but in my personal life, I only talk to people about the subject when they ask me. Otherwise I don't tell other SDAs how they should keep the Sabbath.

It's OK to make suggestions when people ask you, but otherwise, as you say, we need "stop wrestling with people over the Sabbath."

Church officers talking to someone doing common labor on the Sabbath is one thing, but it is not up to us as indviduals to "correct" people on their keeping of the day.

[John317]

I never, in all the time I was a believer, felt what I could identify as the Holy Spirit. I would say that the holy spirit was in my life, but I had no way to tell if that was true. I tried to believe and do everything I read in the Bible and in Ellen White. I did this for years and as far as I could tell any enlightenment that came was stuff I learned on my own.

I have to conclude that either god was excluding me or Christians are making it up. And as far as I can discern that seems to be what is happening.

You might be looking for the wrong thing as evidence of the Holy Spirit in your life.

Do you accept the Scriptures-- such as the Psalms or the Gospels or the letters of Paul--- as God's voice to you personally?

How does the Bible say we can tell if we have the Holy Spirit in our life?

Look at a few key verses on this question:

1 John 2:3-5-- And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 4:12-13-- No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:1-4-- Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

28,000

[John317]

Based on your memory of the Sabbath and of the things you learned from studying, what do you believe is the purpose of the Sabbath? What's it good for?

Originally Posted By: cardw

It is much simpler to be aware of the present than to go through all these mental gymnastics. All of this is trivia. It's a bunch of mental chatter and noise.

Do you know when I rest?

When I'm tired.

I'm not asking you what you do now or what you believe now.

I'm asking you what you know the Bible says about the reason for Sabbath-keeping.

If you truly believe all this is "trivia," why are you spending time here?

I don't go to Forums where people are talking about "trivia" and where I find only "chatter" and "noise." I don't think you do, either. I believe there's a deeper reason you are here, and it's a good thing.

[ClubV12]

I ride a motorcycle, when the weather is good. I have two, one with an automatic transmission and one with a typical shifter. I rode the shifter one to church, and this friend of mine, in a pleasant and joking way, asked if riding a motorcycle on Sabbath was OK. I'm the only person in our church who rides. We laughed and then I got to thinking, maybe I should ride the bike with the automatic transmision so I wouldn't have to do all that "work" shifting gears on the Sabbath?

[John317]

That's a very good post on how to know we have the Holy Spirit in our lives.

[phkrause]

I ride a motorcycle, when the weather is good. I have two, one with an automatic transmission and one with a typical shifter. I rode the shifter one to church, and this friend of mine, in a pleasant and joking way, asked if riding a motorcycle on Sabbath was OK. I'm the only person in our church who rides. We laughed and then I got to thinking, maybe I should ride the bike with the automatic transmision so I wouldn't have to do all that "work" shifting gears on the Sabbath?

Ain't that the truth.