Buying groceries on sabbath

[John317]

"Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life"

1T 158-164.

I read this as a kid and I started praying and pleading with god to not kill me or put me in the lake of fire. "Please god! Please don't kill me or burn me up in the lake of fire. I freely admit that I am the chief of sinners and that I deserve the worst possible punishment. I know that my righteousness is a filthy rags. I give my life completely to you. Please, please, PLEASE don't kill me or torture me in the lake of fire. I beg of you please."

Is this fearful and trembling enough for you?

Maybe I should start cutting body parts off that cause me to sin like Saint Jerome?

Should I start flogging myself literally to prove my dedication?

I was terrified for years. I think I had the fear and trembling thing down.

Like I said, I took this very literally and very seriously. This is what it says to do. I did it and nothing happened.

No change is evidence of no change.

So don't you dare say I wasn't humble or dedicated enough. You have no idea the torture it is to believe, as a child, that you deserve to receive the worst possible punishment and if you don't you are going to face the time of trouble that will be worse than anything you can imagine. I contemplated this daily for years.

To teach a child this and to expose them to Ellen White's writings as infallible on this is child abuse. There are no blows on the outside, but the minute by minute fear, torture, and self loathing suck the life out of everything.

Talk about "protesting too much," cardw. Child abuse to expose them to Ellen White's writings as true?!!

I wonder if Tom Wetmore, Co-Aspen, fccool, other members would agree with you on this.

[John317]

That is very true.

I think what cardw's experience shows more than anything else is that he somehow missed a lot that Ellen White said and he misunderstood what she wrote. This is sad and even tragic in the case of someone like cardw, but it certainly is not even close to being evidence that it is dangerous to accept the Bible and EGW literally.

It would be unfair to writers if we say that it's their fault if some people misunderstand what they've written.

I wonder if cardw would agree with someone who says Nietzsche's books convinced them that they should kill someone in order to prove the philosopher's theory of the "superman" or "overman."

Some people have even blamed Nietzsche for what the Nazis did in WWII, but of course that is unfair and inaccurate, athough a popular notion. That would actually make more sense, though, than blaming Ellen White for what cardw experienced.

Another possibility is blaming Darwin for people's misunderstanding the evolutionary theory to teach that we came from monkeys. That would not be Darwin's fault, would it?

Again, we don't blame writers for the fact that some readers-- even young ones-- don't understand what they wrote. Obviously, though, some would like to see this done in the case of the Bible and of Ellen White. Wonder why.

[John317]

I think what you believe and teach is harmful.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Please quote the statements I've made that you believe reflect a harmful belief or teaching.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You teach a literal interpretation of the Bible and Ellen White. I gave you an example of taking Ellen White literally had on my life and you ignored it.

I feel badly for you, honestly and sincerely, but you're an adult now and you need to realize that what you experienced as a child should not be allowed to prevent you from seeing things from an adult viewpoint.

Is this the extent of your evidence that I believe and teach harmful things? If you have some more evidence, please present it. If you would, please quote what I wrote and give the post number and name of the discussion.

I'll be happy to talk to you about anything you want to talk about, cardw.

[phkrause]

In regards to EGW's quote "Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life" she doesn't say pray for your mortal life. She says pray as eagerly as we would for our mortal life. She was giving an analogy and example. I don't think she meant for us to pray "please don't send me to hell" over and over without praying for repentance or confession as she taught in Steps To Christ. She was saying that the intensity or eagerness of our prayers should be as if our mortal life were at stake, not that literally our words should always be "please don't take my mortal life away" over and over. That takes the focus off of what we should be praying for.

Excellent point Sid. I also mentioned above in a post that the context is very important. I would never have allowed a child to read this in the first place, because there's no way they can understand a statement like that. And if an adult says this to a child I think that is not what EGW had in mind.

[cardw]

In regards to EGW's quote "Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life" she doesn't say pray for your mortal life. She says pray as eagerly as we would for our mortal life. She was giving an analogy and example. I don't think she meant for us to pray "please don't send me to hell" over and over without praying for repentance or confession as she taught in Steps To Christ. She was saying that the intensity or eagerness of our prayers should be as if our mortal life were at stake, not that literally our words should always be "please don't take my mortal life away" over and over. That takes the focus off of what we should be praying for.

How is this any different?

How is it different to pray as earnestly and as eagerly?

If I was praying for my mortal life there would be a lot of fear involved. And the Bible says that fear is the beginning of wisdom.

How is being fearful wise?

I did talk to my pastors and those in authority. They said the same thing as you. I don't see any difference at all between pleading for my mortal life and asking god to save me as earnestly and eagerly as if pleading for my mortal life.

The experience is the same.

These are semantic games.

[cardw]

You can't reasonably blame the Bible or Ellen White for your experience, assuming that your description is accurate. Ellen White makes no statements that would lead anyone to think the things you claim you thought. As a kid, I read those same things, and many thousands of SDA kids have read them, yet neither nor they ever did or thought what you say you did.

Didn't you also read about God's love for you and about how Christ died for you in order for to live eternally with Him?

[John317]

"Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life"

1T 158-164.

Did you read everything else in those pages, such as the following paragraphs:

Quote:

I saw that unless there is an entire change in the young, a thorough conversion, they may despair of heaven. From what has been shown me, there are not more than half of the young who profess religion and the truth who have been truly converted. If they had been converted they would bear fruit to the glory of God. Many are leaning upon a supposed hope without a true foundation. The fountain is not cleansed, therefore the streams proceeding from that fountain are not pure. Cleanse the fountain, and the streams will be pure. If the heart is right, your words, your dress, your acts, will all be right. True godliness is lacking. I would not dishonor my Master so much as to admit that a careless, trifling, prayerless person is a Christian. No; a Christian has victory over his besetments, over his passions. There is a remedy for the sin-sick soul. That remedy is in Jesus. Precious Saviour! His grace is sufficient for the weakest; and the strongest must also have His grace or perish. {1T 158.1}

I saw how this grace could be obtained. Go to your closet, and there alone plead with God: "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Be in earnest, be sincere. Fervent prayer availeth much. Jacoblike, wrestle in prayer. Agonize. Jesus, in the garden, sweat great drops of blood; you must make an effort. Do not leave your closet until you feel strong in God; then watch, and just as long as you watch and pray you can keep these evil besetments under, and the grace of God can and will appear in you. {1T 158.2}

God forbid that I should cease to warn you. Young friends, seek the Lord with all your heart. Come with zeal, and when you sincerely feel that without the help of God you perish, when you pant after Him as the hart panteth after the water brooks, then will the Lord strengthen you speedily. Then will your peace pass all understanding. If you expect salvation, you must pray. Take time. Be not hurried and careless in your prayers. Beg of God to work in you a thorough reformation, that the fruits of His Spirit may dwell in you, and you shine as lights in the world. Be not a hindrance or curse to the cause of God; you can be a help, a blessing. Does Satan tell you that you cannot enjoy salvation, full and free? Believe him not. {1T 158.3}

I saw that it is the privilege of every Christian to enjoy the deep movings of the Spirit of God. A sweet, heavenly peace will pervade the mind, and you will love to meditate upon God and heaven. You will feast upon the glorious promises of His word. But know first that you have begun the Christian course. Know that the first steps are taken in the road to everlasting life. Be not deceived. I fear, yea, I know, that many of you know not what religion is. You have felt some excitement, some emotion, but have never seen sin in its enormity. You have never felt your undone condition and turned from your evil ways with bitter sorrow. You have never died to the world. You still love its pleasures; you love to engage in conversation on worldly matters. But when the truth of God is introduced, you have nothing to say. Why so silent? Why so talkative upon worldly things, and so silent upon the subject that should most concern you--a subject that should engage your whole soul? The truth of God does not dwell in you. {1T 159.1}

I saw that many are fair in their profession, while within is corruption. Deceive not yourselves, falsehearted professors. God looks at the heart. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." The world, I saw, is in the heart of such, but the religion of Jesus is not there. If professed Christians love Jesus better than the world, they will love to speak of Him, their best Friend, in whom their highest affections are centered. He came to their aid when they felt their lost and perishing condition. When weary and heavy-laden with sin, they turned unto Him. He removed their burden of guilt and sin, took away their sorrow and mourning, and turned the whole current of their affections. The things they once loved, they now hate; and the things they hated, they now love. {1T 159.2}

Has this great change taken place in you? Be not deceived. I would never name the name of Christ, or I would give Him my whole heart, my undivided affections. We should feel the deepest gratitude that Jesus will accept this offering. He demands all. When we are brought to yield to His claims, and give up all, then, and not till then, will He throw around us His arms of mercy. But what do we give when we give all? A sin-polluted soul for Jesus to purify, to cleanse by His mercy, and to save from death by His matchless love. And yet I saw that some thought it hard to give up all. I am ashamed to hear it spoken of, ashamed to write it. {1T 160.1}

Continued

[John317]

Continued

Quote:

Do you talk about self-denial? What did Christ give for us? When you think it hard that Christ requires all, go to Calvary, and weep there over such a thought. Behold the hands and feet of your Deliverer torn by the cruel nails that you may be washed from sin by His own blood! {1T 160.2}

Those who feel the constraining love of God do not ask how little may be given in order to obtain the heavenly reward; they ask not for the lowest standard, but aim at a perfect conformity to the will of their Redeemer. With ardent desire they yield all, and manifest zeal proportionate to the value of the object of which they are in pursuit. What is the object? Immortality, eternal life. {1T 160.3}

Young friends, many of you are sadly deceived. You have been satisfied with something short of pure and undefiled religion. I want to arouse you. The angels of God are trying to arouse you. Oh, that the important truths of the word of God may arouse you to a sense of your danger, and lead you to a thorough examination of yourselves! Your hearts are yet carnal. They are not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. These carnal hearts must be changed, and you see such beauty in holiness that you will pant after it as the hart panteth after the water brooks. Then you will love God and love His law. Then the yoke of Christ will be easy and His burden light. Although you will have trials, yet these trials, well borne, only make the way more precious. The immortal inheritance is for the self-denying Christian. {1T 160.4}

I saw that the Christian should not set too high a value, or depend too much, upon a happy flight of feeling. These feelings are not always true guides. It should be the study of every Christian to serve God from principle, and not be ruled by feeling. By so doing, faith will be brought into exercise, and will increase. I was shown that if the Christian lives a humble, self-sacrificing life, peace and joy in the Lord will be the result. But the greatest happiness experienced will be in doing others good, in making others happy. Such happiness will be lasting. {1T 161.1}

Many of the young have not a fixed principle to serve God. They do not exercise faith. They sink under every cloud. They have no power of endurance. They do not grow in grace. They appear to keep the commandments of God. They make now and then a formal prayer and are called Christians. Their parents are so anxious for them that they accept anything which appears favorable, and do not labor with them, and teach them that the carnal mind must die. They encourage them to come along and act a part; but they fail to lead them to search their own hearts diligently, to examine themselves, and to count the cost of what it is to be a Christian. The result is, the young profess to be Christians without sufficiently trying their motives. {1T 161.2}

Says the True Witness: "I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth." Satan is willing that you should be Christians in name, for you can suit his purpose better. If you have a form and not true godliness, he can use you to decoy others into the same self-deceived way. Some poor souls will look to you, instead of looking to the Bible standard, and will come up no higher. They are as good as you, and are satisfied. {1T 162.1}

The young are often urged to do duty, to speak or pray in meeting; urged to die to pride. Every step they are urged. Such religion is worth nothing. Let the carnal heart be changed, and it will not be such drudgery, ye coldhearted professors, to serve God. All that love of dress and pride of appearance will be gone. The time that you spend standing before the glass preparing the hair to please the eye, should be devoted to prayer and searching of heart. There will be no place for outward adornment in the sanctified heart; but there will be an earnest, anxious seeking for the inward adorning, the Christian graces--the fruits of the Spirit of God. {1T 162.2}

Says the apostle: "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." {1T 162.3}

Subdue the carnal mind, reform the life, and the poor mortal frame will not be so idolized. If the heart is reformed, it will be seen in the outward appearance. If Christ be in us the hope of glory, we shall discover such matchless charms in Him that the soul will be enamored. It will cleave to Him, choose to love Him, and in admiration of Him, self will be forgotten. Jesus will be magnified and adored, and self abased and humbled. But a profession, without this deep love, is mere talk, dry formality, and heavy drudgery. Many of you may retain a notion of religion in the head, an outside religion, when the heart is not cleansed. God looks at the heart; "all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do." Will He be satisfied with anything but truth in the inward parts? Every truly converted soul will carry the unmistakable marks that the carnal mind is subdued. {1T 162.4}

I speak plainly. I do not think this will discourage a true Christian; and I do not want any of you to come up to the time of trouble without a well-grounded hope in your Redeemer. Determine to know the worst of your case. Ascertain if you have an inheritance on high. Deal truly with your own soul. Remember that a church without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, will Jesus present to His Father. {1T 163.1}

How are you to know that you are accepted of God? Study His word prayerfully. Lay it not aside for any other book. This Book convinces of sin. It plainly reveals the way of salvation. It brings to view a bright and glorious reward. It reveals to you a complete Saviour, and teaches you that through His boundless mercy alone can you expect salvation. {1T 163.2}

Do not neglect secret prayer, for it is the soul of religion. With earnest, fervent prayer, plead for purity of soul. Plead as earnestly, as eagerly, as you would for your mortal life, were it at stake. Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for salvation, and the sweet evidence is obtained of pardoned sin. {1T 163.3}

The hope of eternal life is not to be received upon slight grounds. It is a subject to be settled between God and your own soul--settled for eternity. A supposed hope, and nothing more, will prove your ruin. Since you are to stand or fall by the word of God, it is to that word you must look for testimony in your case. There you can see what is required of you to become a Christian. Do not lay off your armor, or leave the battlefield until you have obtained the victory, and triumph in your Redeemer.

Chap. 28 - Church Trials

The following view was given at Ulysses, Pennsylvania, July 6, 1857. It relates to things as they have existed in ----- and other places in New York. {1T 164.1}

There have been so many church trials among the brethren in the State of New York, that God has not had the least to do with, that the church have lost their strength, and they know not how to regain it. Love for one another has disappeared, and a faultfinding, accusing spirit has prevailed. It has been considered a virtue to hunt up everything about one another that looked wrong, and make it appear fully as bad as it really was. The bowels of compassion that yearn in love and pity toward brethren, have not existed. The religion of some has consisted in faultfinding, picking at everything bearing the appearance of wrong, until the noble feelings of the soul are withered. The mind should be elevated to dwell upon eternal scenes, heaven, its treasures, its glories, and should take sweet and holy satisfaction in the truths of the Bible. It should love to feed upon the precious promises that God's word affords, draw comfort from them, and be lifted above trifles to weighty, eternal things. {1T 164.2}

cardw, please try as hard as you can to forget what you felt as a child. I want you to consider these things as a grown man. I would really be interested in knowing what you think today of those same pages and about the same lines about prayer. Would you please tell us?

[BobRyan]

In the end there are only two groups of people in Rev 20 - those that burn in the lake of fire and those that live forever.

Those who think that burning in the lake of fire is some kind of party that must not be missed out on - are engaging in destructive "self-talk".

In Matt 25 Christ contrasts the saved and the lost in very very clear terms for the end of time.

God describes the lake of fire event in Rev 14:10-11 in the most "stay away from that at all costs" language that can be imagined. How can anyone read the warning signs God places at the brink of the lake of fire and continue to tell themselves that their path down that road "is a good thing"??

What can they be thinking?

Noah was sent to warn the world - but the world simply "sweet-talked" themselves out of "stepping onto the boat".

Matt 7 says that it is the "many" that engage in non-step self-deception and end up on the wide road to destruction.

Has that changed since the days of Christ in Matt 7??

When lost person says "I used to think that God would send the wicked to the lake of fire and it caused me to worry for my own safety" - but then confronted with the "way of safety" they simply choose to remain on the road to destruction - who are we to take down the flashing lights and warning signs?

I say leave up those sign posts and warnings! Let the yellow flags of warning be unfurled and the danger sirens wail.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

But cardw, how then does it happen that there are millions upon millions of people for whom Christianity and the gospel of Christ does indeed work?

It certainly works for me. I now love Jesus Christ and love people and am sitting here writing to you about Him, when I have no reason to except that the Holy Spirit has placed it in my heart to care about you enough to spend time writing to you, a person I never even met.

I can tell you that without the Bible and Ellen White's writings, I would be out on the streets and doing very wrong things. As it is, I am happy and even joyful and have love for other people. I was "happy" as a non-Christian and I had a lot of fun, but I loved sin and it was doing those sins and living for myself that brought me happiness. Now I live for God and for other people.

This is owing to what you claim is child-abuse--the reading and taking literally of the Bible and the writings of a woman I know to be a genuine prophet of God.

[John317]

[John317]

Didn't you also read about God's love for you and about how Christ died for you in order for to live eternally with Him?

Originally Posted By: cardw

Yes, I read about a father god who needs the horrible death of his son to give himself permission to save us.

It makes more sense to simply forgive us. Why all the sacrifices and torture? Oh yeah, reason isn't enough convince so we need to add fear.

cardw, if this is what you thought as a Christian, it is no wonder you didn't stay a Christian. It really only shows how shallow and superficial your understanding of the gospel and the Bible is.

Are you saying this is what you believed when you claimed to be a Christian, or is it what you came to believe after you jettisoned Jesus Christ and the Bible?

[John317]

How old were you when you first read that passage? And weren't your parents there to guide you and teach you? Didn't you go to anyone about what you were thinking? And if not, why didn't you?

[John317]

I wish Tom Wetmore, Co-Aspen, fccool and others would also join us and give you their viewpoints about this. Tom was here a while ago and said something about our possibly being wrong about the Bible's teachings on the destruction of the wicked. He doesn't seem to have come back since then. Maybe he is away from the computer at this time.

Tom, if you read this, please help answer some of the urgent questions that cardw has about the Bible and Ellen White. If Stan or Gail also want to chip in and answer anything, that would be great, too! :-)

[Overaged]

If I was praying for my mortal life there would be a lot of fear involved. And the Bible says that fear is the beginning of wisdom.

How is being fearful wise?

Your above hub-bub re "child abuse" is pretty far-fetched and very much out of context. When fear does ocurr, it can be very useful, in many ways. And I would not be too concerned about my kids being fearful when it comes to say - drug use, or drinking and driving; so why would fear, in a proper context be so "abusive," when it comes to our salvation? What you say is simply not correct. Fear cannot be avoided, not even for you.

[John317]

John, let me point out something obvious to you.

You have over 28,000 posts and you have been a member since Nov of 2005.

I have been a member since Feb of 2002 and I have just over 3000 posts.

You have over 9 times as many posts as I and I have been a member almost 4 years longer than you.

You tell me who spends more time at their computer. LOL

Yes, I do love the Forum and all the people on it. But I also still have a family and many other things I'm doing. For instance, my photography, some of which is on the following links, and which I hope you enjoy:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/165910.html

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/370/1/Photos_by_John317.html

[John317]

I was thinking something very similar, Overaged. You said it straight and to the point.

[Gail]

Richard, Psalm 56:9 says, "God is for me." He is on your side. That is the part that should have been ingrained into you, if anything was to be.

In the face of enemies, in the judgment or in your local church or family, God is for me (you!)

It is God that puts love into my selfish heart and it is God that awakens compassion for you because of the experience you went through that was WRONG. My natural selfish heart would just as rather not be bothered, but I am not feeling that. When I read your story I feel compelled to give you a hug.

xx

[Overaged]

Yes I was indoctrinated to fear god. I was indoctrinated to understand that if I had one sin unforgiven that I would be lost. I was indoctrinated that I had to perfect my character otherwise I wouldn't make it through the time of trouble which was just around the corner. I was indoctrinated to understand that if I sinned then it was evidence that the spirit of god was not in me.

I did everything that it said to do in Ellen White and the Bible. The bottom line. It doesn't work.

[Gail]

This week I've had a few exposures to conversations about people's memories, harmful ones, and how that has affected them in their later lives.

A discussion involving our dear cardw piqued me to mention it finally here, as it has been an eventful week, thought-wise, for me. The memories mentioned have been horrific, some in the church, some out of it. The common factor is that they involved children and given that stage of development the effects have been profound.

All of the experiences brought to my attention have made me inwardly weep. Weep, and just reach out and give the person a great, big hug. I got one lady's e-mail address because I want to keep in touch with her. That is not a usual practise for me with a customer, but I have prayed on the phone with this one a couple of times and we are bonding into friends.

And among them have been my own children.

The courage that these folks have shown in facing life is incredible and awe-inspiring.

What I don't know is, how some of these broken children grow up and find Jesus through it and some give up. What makes the difference in how this happens?

My friend cardw, I know where you are at from what you have exposed to us, and do not blame you one bit. I thank you for allowing us to listen as you vent. I picture you as my friend, and I must tell you that I have not given up on you to experience the real joy that I and so many others have experienced in Jesus.

I only wish healing... and although you haven't yet had it from the Jesus angle, it is there. I've heard too many testimonies from devastating childhoods to know otherwise. If anyone here can be of a support and uplifting character to you, let it be our gift. :)

[Q.E.D.]

Hi Folks, This is my first post.

[phkrause]

I'd say most of us, if not all, have been indoctrinated in one way or another. Its how we deal with this as we grow older that either helps us or allow it become a great burden. We are the ones that choose the final outcome of our lives.

I'd also like to know cardw, how do you see the reason of Jesus coming to this earth to die for all? Do you think he had no other chose? Like to say, No Father, I'll them all die. Or are you saying that God had another chose? That he could've just gotten rid of Satan and his Angels? And it would've been all OK? In that case Satan would've been right!!!

[John317]

Welcome to ClubAdventist, friend.

Please let us know your thoughts on the topic.

[Overaged]

cardw, if this is what you thought as a Christian, it is no wonder you didn't stay a Christian. It really only shows how shallow and superficial your understanding of the gospel and the Bible is.

Are you saying this is what you believed when you claimed to be a Christian, or is it what you came to believe after you jettisoned Jesus Christ and the Bible?

I would strongly suggest that it may not be cardw's understanding that should be faulted here. He is relating what he got from church members. And that can be faulted all the way from what I see with my feeble vision

[John317]

...I grew up and realized that all this respect for the bible and Ellen White was underserved. It is nonsense. No reasonable advanced being who was all knowing would behave and teach this terrible stuff to children, let alone adults.

Ok, but you seem to me to be still reading the Bible and Ellen White as if you are a child. As you read them now as an adult, what do you think?

Let's talk about them from the viewpoint of grown ups, not as children.

As one straight forward guy to another. :-)