Buying groceries on sabbath

[Overaged]

I just bought groceries at sabbath because currently i am bodybuilding. However i don t know if God is okay with that. What did EGW had to say about buying on sabbath?

Hey, sorry friend. I think we likely scared you away from this topic that you started. What do you think of all that has transpired in this topic now? Did you learn anything useful? Or did we just confuse you more?

[Overaged]

Adults are self governed. Children need to be told what to do.

You are asking me to behave like a child.

Jesus asks us to be "as little children" too; and He even calls us that at times; but context is the watchword. What does He mean by that?

I don't really agree that adults are "self-governed." We all need to answer to something or someone else. Some children don't need to be told what to do. When I was nine; I cooked and cleaned for my 7 brothers and sisters, and looked after them. There was no one to tell me what to do.

[Pockey]

I choose not to act on every single desire I have because that's nuts too. Hopefully we can learn from our mistakes and form rational values based on reality rather than some 6th century iron age notion of what is moral.

Rational values based on whose reality? What is your gold standard of what is moral?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I choose not to act on every single desire I have because that's nuts too. Hopefully we can learn from our mistakes and form rational values based on reality rather than some 6th century iron age notion of what is moral.

Rational values based on whose reality? What is your gold standard of what is moral?

Empathy and the human ability to sense the suffering of others. It's the same one Jesus gave us. Love your neighbor as yourself.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

Being careful to do what God tells us is like a child being careful to obey his father. Would you say it shows a lack of consciousness on a child's part to consider what his father told him to do?

Originally Posted By: cardw

You claim that I don't understand truth from an adult perspective. What you are stating here proves that your belief is childish.

I never said you don't understand truth from an adult perspective. I said I want to understand what you think about the truth from an adult perspective. You had been telling me what you thought of it as a child. You misunderstood what I said. Perhaps I didn't express it clearly. If that's the case, I apologize.

But do you believe that adults don't need God and don't need to obey Him?

I believe adults need to be accountable to each other.

[John317]

Adults are self governed. Children need to be told what to do.

You are asking me to behave like a child.

All human history shows that adults are not self-governed. Of course some are more so than others. But children are not the only ones who need to learn obedience. God made the laws of our being-- the physical as well as the moral laws. He also made health laws. The better we know these laws and obey them, the better our life is.

Have you ever noticed that humans tend to need something or someone to worship? I use "worship" here in its broadest sense.

[Gail]

I appreciate your stance on honesty, Rich. That is what God appreciates, too. He knows the truth of our hearts and we only fool ourselves (and maybe those on the outside) when we play a charade.

That is why when you embraced honesty it gave you peace. Jesus said that the truth would set you free, and you have experienced that. I dare say, you have BEGUN to experience that.

But it gets better! Eschewing lust is much more than denying what comes naturally to oneself. It is ennobling the principle of erotic love by involving another's soul and tying it to yours. It is what makes 90-year-olds still in love after 60 years of marriage. It is eternal.

And it's the same with the 2nd commandment. Not only did God make us with an ability and need to worship, He steers us away from mere things. It is so easy to become enamoured with our car, our career, even other people that we forget our Creator.

In a sense I like where you are, because you have learned to reach out beyond literal "rules". To me, the Decalogue is much more than rules. What EGW wrote was much more than rules. What you were fed when young robbed both you and God of real worth.

I thank you also for your patience. I appreciate your journey. Don't give up yet! As Jesus told the believers before He ascended to tarry and wait for the promise of the Father, sometimes we need to tarry, too. While they waited they prayed and confessed- their unbelief, their sins, they made amends. And they waited. Then the Spirit came on them with such power that the world never saw before. It still happens today. The Spirit still comes with power.

[CoAspen]

Good words...good words!

[Overaged]

I thank you also for your patience. I appreciate your journey. Don't give up yet! As Jesus told the believers before He ascended to tarry and wait for the promise of the Father, sometimes we need to tarry, too. While they waited they prayed and confessed- their unbelief, their sins, they made amends. And they waited. Then the Spirit came on them with such power that the world never saw before. It still happens today. The Spirit still comes with power.

Hey cardw; you have been very patient with us...I appreciate having you around the forum.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Adults are self governed. Children need to be told what to do.

You are asking me to behave like a child.

All human history shows that adults are not self-governed. Of course some are more so than others. But children are not the only ones who need to learn obedience. God made the laws of our being-- the physical as well as the moral laws. He also made health laws. The better we know these laws and obey them, the better our life is.

Have you ever noticed that humans tend to need something or someone to worship? I use "worship" here in its broadest sense.

[cardw]

I appreciate your stance on honesty, Rich. That is what God appreciates, too. He knows the truth of our hearts and we only fool ourselves (and maybe those on the outside) when we play a charade.

That is why when you embraced honesty it gave you peace. Jesus said that the truth would set you free, and you have experienced that. I dare say, you have BEGUN to experience that.

[BobRyan]

Hence the flaw in CARDW's argument.

But he/she does have a point in one area - it would be pointless to pull a non-Christian aside and offer to debate the Sabbath or the viability of the prophetic ministry of Ellen White or the doctrine on Baptism etc.

You have to start at the beginning - the reality of sin, a lost world, the warning of hell, creation, the Gospel.

And for every lost person that tries to sell you the benefits of choosing a lost path - there are as you point out millions of Christians that will offer their testimony as to the blessings of choosing salvation.

These facts are beyond dispute.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Hence the flaw in CARDW's argument.

But he/she does have a point in one area - it would be pointless to pull a non-Christian aside and offer to debate the Sabbath or the viability of the prophetic ministry of Ellen White or the doctrine on Baptism etc.

You have to start at the beginning - the reality of sin, a lost world, the warning of hell, creation, the Gospel.

And for every lost person that tries to sell you the benefits of choosing a lost path - there are as you point out millions of Christians that will offer their testimony as to the blessings of choosing salvation.

These facts are beyond dispute.

Originally Posted By: cardw

And yet millions of people follow Islam and claim the same thing.

Indeed they do.

And today there are millions of people in Islam following that path right into the arms of Christianity.

While some Christians may in fact choose to turn a blind eye to the light they have - millions of Muslims are taking up the light they have and turning to Christianity!

What an amazing day and age we live in!!

in Christ,

Bob

This still does not address the flaw in your argument.

It's irrelevant how many are being converted. I would point out that the majority of converts are to a form of Christianity most Adventists would condemn.

If we look at the fastest growing group it would be non-believers. They are now the third largest group behind Christianity and Islam.

Christianity has 2.1 billion.

Islam has 1.5 billion

Nonreligious/agnotic/atheist has 1.1 billion.

In the United States non believers have gone from 10 percent of the population to about 35 percent. If non belief was a religion it would be the fastest growing religion of all time.

None of this is relevant to the rightness or wrongness of anything.

Your assertion that millions of Christians believe does not make Christianity any more true than the millions of Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Sikhs, Juches, Spiritists, Jews, Bahais, Shintos, Cao Dais, Zoroastrians, Neo-Pagans, Unitarians, Rastafarians, etc....

I do believe that non belief is growing because of the free exchange of information provided by the internet. I believe once people look at the history, the evidence, and the behavior of Christians throughout the ages it becomes clear that it is all made up.

[Overaged]

I believe once people look at the history, the evidence, and the behavior of Christians throughout the ages it becomes clear that it is all made up.

Not really. Is the behavior of non-believers any better? What does the non-believer's behavior prove about their rightness? Absolutely nothing.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I believe once people look at the history, the evidence, and the behavior of Christians throughout the ages it becomes clear that it is all made up.

Not really. Is the behavior of non-believers any better? What does the non-believer's behavior prove about their rightness? Absolutely nothing.

Non believers aren't trying to be righteous, Christians are.

Since there is little difference in behavior that is further evidence that Christianity makes no difference.

It really is about individuals and their personal choices. It doesn't appear that Christianity gives anyone a particular advantage on the behavior front.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

It really is about individuals and their personal choices. It doesn't appear that Christianity gives anyone a particular advantage on the behavior front.

And that is a sad observation, because it is so often true when the chips are down.

It should make a change in a persons life.

You are correct in that christians and unchristians can appear very alike. It is about personal choices. The christian should feel thy have an additional resource that others may not feel they have, a God that cares about their well being. I do believe a correct view of the Christian God should give peace to the individual when nothing else seems too.

By the correct view, I do not mean the way you and I were brought up!

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Non believers aren't trying to be righteous, Christians are.

And that is the reason you see failure among christians, no amount of trying will achieve the goal!

[phkrause]

Quote:

Non believers aren't trying to be righteous, Christians are.

And that is the reason you see failure among christians, no amount of trying will achieve the goal!

Unfortunitly CoA I have to agree with you. Your 2 posts are right on. A very sad commentary on Christianity. But as I've mentioned time and time again, many call themselves Christian but are not. That's why we need to be looking to Jesus as our example and not people. But at the same time there are many good Christian people.

[Pockey]

Quote:

Non believers aren't trying to be righteous, Christians are.

And that is the reason you see failure among christians, no amount of trying will achieve the goal!

Can you or anyone else please tell me more about this? We still have to choose whether we will obey or not. I know to obey doesn't make us righteous. We don't make ourselves righteous, Jesus does. I guess I'm trying to fully understand this passage in Steps To Christ regarding the will.

What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. {SC 47.1}

Desires for goodness and holiness are right as 48

far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians. {SC 47.2}

Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith. EGW SC

[Overaged]

Quote:

Non believers aren't trying to be righteous, Christians are.

And that is the reason you see failure among christians, no amount of trying will achieve the goal!

[cardw]

Unfortunitly CoA I have to agree with you. Your 2 posts are right on. A very sad commentary on Christianity. But as I've mentioned time and time again, many call themselves Christian but are not. That's why we need to be looking to Jesus as our example and not people. But at the same time there are many good Christian people.

But what does that really mean to look to Jesus as our example? So what if Jesus achieved a perfect life. According to the Bible he was god. And Jesus is only one person who we can't verify because we can't see Jesus or talk with Jesus and ask him how he did it if indeed he was as vulnerable as us to the temptations of life.

If Christianity works and the method of achieving this was clear we should see a massive shift in Christian people's behavior and a whole lot more people behaving well or in this case like Jesus.

Where is that? It has never existed. Christianity has been violent since its beginning.

We always come to this point where we read, if only people did this or if only people did that. Why is it up to people if god is so powerful? Why, if all these people are praying to god to make them better people, do they behave so poorly?

There are certainly good people who are Christian, but it's apparent to me that it must not be Christianity that makes the difference because I know many good people who aren't Christians.

[cardw]

Can you or anyone else please tell me more about this? We still have to choose whether we will obey or not. I know to obey doesn't make us righteous. We don't make ourselves righteous, Jesus does. I guess I'm trying to fully understand this passage in Steps To Christ regarding the will.

What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. {SC 47.1}

Desires for goodness and holiness are right as 48

far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians. {SC 47.2}

Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith. EGW SC

I've read this same passage over and over and it becomes apparent that it's nonsense.

She defines the will as our POWER of choice. She then says that we should give this will or "POWER of choice" over to god.

She says that our affections cannot be changed by our power to choose, but we can choose to serve god. Apparently we choose to serve god by giving god our power of choice. He will then both will for us and do for us of his good pleasure.

She then clouds this up by saying by right exercise of the will or power of choice, an entire change can be made in ones life. Is this the exercise of the will by god or the exercise of the will to give one's will or power of choice to god or the exercise of the will by oneself to be good?

Those who want to emphasize works will say she means the exercise of the will by oneself with the help of god. Those who emphasize faith will say that it is the exercise of the will by god alone.

Now I offerred my will to god a whole lot of times, but it didn't really change my instincts, at all, to want sex every time I saw a beautiful woman. I could force myself not to look or try not to think about it, which is ridiculous since not thinking about is thinking about it. My desire did not change one bit the whole time I was a Christian. And remember according to Jesus every time I lusted after a woman I committed adultery. That's one of the big ten so I wasn't going to get around that one.

Now the next paragraph adds a few more requirements. She says that I have to constantly surrender my will to be successful. So it's not enough to do it once, you have to constantly surrender the will.

So does that mean that every minute I have to say a prayer to god that I surrender my will for the next minute to you? Oh that's not constantly because there is a whole minute in between.

There are so many cliches presented in this material that it sounds like it is terribly profound without actually telling you anything. That is the basis of a cult. Keep people fearful and uncertain so they keep coming back to you for next "answer."

This soon becomes absurd. There is ALWAYS one more hoop to jump through.

Because if you aren't successful then YOU must be doing something wrong.

Well I tried all of this over and over and over and over and NOTHING changed period.

How many times does one have to try this nonsense out before you discover that it simply isn't true?

The truth is nobody knows what Ellen White means because it doesn't mean anything.

[Pockey]

If we have to pray every moment we are tempted in order to gain victory then that's what we have to do. I have found that when I do this He gives me victory. And I mean a persistent prayer, not a quick rushed prayer where I've already secretly decided to sin regardless of my prayer. But a prayer over and over for victory. He has given me victory every time I have persisted. I have also realized that when I decide not to pray for victory, it's because I want to commit the sin. And that is my fault.

[cardw]

If we have to pray every moment we are tempted in order to gain victory then that's what we have to do. I have found that when I do this He gives me victory. And I mean a persistent prayer, not a quick rushed prayer where I've already secretly decided to sin regardless of my prayer. But a prayer over and over for victory. He has given me victory every time I have persisted. I have also realized that when I decide not to pray for victory, it's because I want to commit the sin. And that is my fault.

I obviously have enough self control to not act on my instinctual desires when it comes to women. The problem is, according to Jesus, adultery has already happened once I experience desire for a woman.

That requires a pre-emptive victory. It is my understanding that freedom from sin is freedom from the desire to sin.

If I continue to pray until the moment passes that is not god's power that is my persistence in praying until I'm distracted. That doesn't really sound like victory to me.

There are a lot better methods to use to simply control behavior. It's the promise that I would be changed that never happened.

Your method looks like it is your power doing it, not god.

[Overaged]

The truth is nobody knows what Ellen White means because it doesn't mean anything.

If "NO ONE" knows what she means; how would you happen to "know" that "it doesn't mean anything?" That does not comply with solid reasoning, or anything else that can be understood.