Buying groceries on sabbath

[John317]

...It's amazing how when it gets real that everything gets quiet.

How did it get quiet?

Maybe you are interpreting people being away from their computer and being busy with their family as "amazing" and "quiet".

[John317]

I think what you believe and teach is harmful.

Please quote the statements I've made that you believe reflect a harmful belief or teaching.

[John317]

...Or that we misunderstood.

Please show how we could misunderstand the following verses to mean that everyone will eventually be saved:

Romans 2:5-10

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

[6] He will render to each one according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

2 Thes. 1:7-9

....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

[8] in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [9] They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Rev. 20:12-15

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [13] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. [14] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. [15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev. 22:14-15

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[John317]

... True humility and openness results from realization that you can be wrong.

Of course I and everyone else can be wrong about some things. I don't think anyone on earth would deny this.

But does this mean we could be wrong about everything?

And does this mean we cannot be certain of anything in the Bible?

Are you certain of anything that you find in the Bible? If so, what are you absolutely certain of?

What do you think, and this is also for Tom Wetmore if he cares to offer a direct and clear answer: Is the Bible the inspired Word of God? Is it God's revelation to us?

[John317]

I guess you are calling my a liar here?

You guessed wrong.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are calling you a liar. That is the common "guess" of teen-agers when someone says they are wrong. It's silly but it's understandable when they say it. It is less understandable when a grown man says it.

[John317]

... If Adventism theology happens to be false, then He's a liar.

Some of the Bible's teachings are so clear that we could say that if they are not true, then either God lied or the Bible is not the revelation of God.

Can you think of any that are this clear?

[Overaged]

quote=cardw]...It's amazing how when it gets real that everything gets quiet./quote]

How did it get quiet?

Maybe you are interpreting people being away from their computer and being busy with their family as "amazing" and "quiet".

Isn't that the truth? Often I experience someone saying to me when this is the case that I am "refusing to answer."

[John317]

I know. It's kind of funny, I think. It is as if they think all you do is sit at the computer waiting for them to post. WE all have great lives apart from the Forum, I hope.

[BobRyan]

Essentially, what you are saying is that God is a liar, if any other possibility happens to be true.

So, in your view, if God offers universal salvation, He's a liar. If Adventism theology happens to be false, then He's a liar.

You base your interpretation not from the idea that God is true and we can fault, but from the position that your theology is in a perfect alignment with God. And if someone says is not, then God is a liar by proxy of your view.

It's a very cult-like mechanism to divert any opposing arguments as arguments against God himself. ...

Your distance from the Protestant reformation principle of testing all doctrine "Sola Scriptura" is impressive!

The protesting Catholics that give up their lives in favor of the Word of God - over man made tradition, had no such "well really it is just my personal bias that I am dying for this day" concept as you have supposed.

The same is true of the early Christians - who were persecuted both by the Jews and the Romans. They were not lining up to lay down their lives for the notion "my personal bias and preference leads me to a slightly different conclusion for which I am willing to give up all earthly interests and even my life".

The is true of the Millerites and the same is true of the saints as they go through the time of trouble.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Jesus was pretty quiet sometimes when his belief was challenged

Excellent point OA. Besides what does it profit anyone to argue on and on? After a certain point it makes no sense to respond anymore, because whatever you say is either being taken out of context or not being understood. I think that is one of the problems of posting on a forum and not talking face to face.

[Overaged]

There is only one thing whereby God is made out to be a liar:

Quote:

1Jn_5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...It's amazing how when it gets real that everything gets quiet.

How did it get quiet?

Maybe you are interpreting people being away from their computer and being busy with their family as "amazing" and "quiet".

John, let me point out something obvious to you.

You have over 28,000 posts and you have been a member since Nov of 2005.

I have been a member since Feb of 2002 and I have just over 3000 posts.

You have over 9 times as many posts as I and I have been a member almost 4 years longer than you.

You tell me who spends more time at their computer. LOL

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I think what you believe and teach is harmful.

Please quote the statements I've made that you believe reflect a harmful belief or teaching.

[Overaged]

You were "terrified for years" but that does not prove any fault in the teaching; only in the understanding thereof...and maybe not even your's

[phkrause]

John, let me point out something obvious to you.

You have over 28,000 posts and you have been a member since Nov of 2005.

I have been a member since Feb of 2002 and I have just over 3000 posts.

You have over 9 times as many posts as I and I have been a member almost 4 years longer than you.

You tell me who spends more time at their computer. LOL

card, I've been a member longer than either you or John! And the first couple years, maybe more, I hardly posted at all. But than I got over my self counseness(sp) and started posting. But there were times that I didn't get on the forum for days or more. I've notice times that you would be gone for an extended period of time and have not seen one other poster complain that you were silent on a particular topic. Just a comment no critisism(sp) intended.

[John317]

I think what you believe and teach is harmful.

Originally Posted By: John317

Please quote the statements I've made that you believe reflect a harmful belief or teaching.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You teach a literal interpretation of the Bible and Ellen White. I gave you an example of taking Ellen White literally had on my life and you ignored it.

That's what I mean about getting real.

OK, let's get REALLY real.

Are you claiming that since you had a particular kind of personal experience, it proves that taking the Bible and the writings of Ellen White literally is harmful?

I was under the impression that you think logically and scientifically.

Have you ever heard of the saying, "One swallow does not make a summer"?

It means that your personal experience-- however bad it was-- is no evidence that it's harmful to take the Bible and Ellen White literally. There are thousands and even millions of experiences of people that show just the opposite.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

John, let me point out something obvious to you.

You have over 28,000 posts and you have been a member since Nov of 2005.

I have been a member since Feb of 2002 and I have just over 3000 posts.

You have over 9 times as many posts as I and I have been a member almost 4 years longer than you.

You tell me who spends more time at their computer. LOL

card, I've been a member longer than either you or John! And the first couple years, maybe more, I hardly posted at all. But than I got over my self counseness(sp) and started posting. But there were times that I didn't get on the forum for days or more. I've notice times that you would be gone for an extended period of time and have not seen one other poster complain that you were silent on a particular topic. Just a comment no critisism(sp) intended.

I'm usually quiet when no one responds to my post. I would have to work to post 28,000 posts. That is about 215 posts per month and about 7 posts a day.

I'm not sure your point is valid in this case.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I think what you believe and teach is harmful.

Originally Posted By: John317

Please quote the statements I've made that you believe reflect a harmful belief or teaching.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You teach a literal interpretation of the Bible and Ellen White. I gave you an example of taking Ellen White literally had on my life and you ignored it.

That's what I mean about getting real.

OK, let's get REALLY real.

Are you claiming that since you had a particular kind of personal experience, it proves that taking the Bible and the writings of Ellen White literally is harmful?

I was under the impression that you think logically and scientifically.

Have you ever heard of the saying, "One swallow does not make a summer"?

It means that your personal experience-- however bad it was-- is no evidence that it's harmful to take the Bible and Ellen White literally. There are thousands and even millions of experiences of people that show just the opposite.

I gave you a specific instance and as usual you generalize. Address the specific quote. I read that you should plead for your mortal life with god.

How is that not abusive to teach a child that?

[John317]

John, let me point out something obvious to you.

You have over 28,000 posts and you have been a member since Nov of 2005.

I have been a member since Feb of 2002 and I have just over 3000 posts.

You have over 9 times as many posts as I and I have been a member almost 4 years longer than you.

You tell me who spends more time at their computer. LOL

So what? What is that supposed to be evidence of?

I doubtless do spend more time on the Forum. And?

Does that mean I don't leave the computer for hours at a time or have a family to attend to?

That is the point I was making. How does your response here deal with what I said in my earlier post?

The point is that people should not assume that if someone does not reply right away, it's because they are being "amazingly quiet." It's a foolish assumption. There are many reasons a person might not post a reply to something when you would like them to.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

John, let me point out something obvious to you.

You have over 28,000 posts and you have been a member since Nov of 2005.

I have been a member since Feb of 2002 and I have just over 3000 posts.

You have over 9 times as many posts as I and I have been a member almost 4 years longer than you.

You tell me who spends more time at their computer. LOL

So what? What is that supposed to be evidence of?

I doubtless do spend more time on the Forum. And?

Does that mean I don't leave the computer for hours at a time or have a family to attend to?

That is the point I was making. How does your response here deal with what I said in my earlier post?

The point is that people should not assume that if someone does not reply right away, it's because they are being "amazingly quiet." It's a foolish assumption. There are many reasons a person might not post a reply to something when you would like them to.

Thou "doth protest too much, methinks."

[phkrause]

I gave you a specific instance and as usual you generalize. Address the specific quote. I read that you should plead for your mortal life with god.

How is that not abusive to teach a child that?

Not to bud into you and Johns posting, but first could you give me the quote, and I'm guessing it was EGW, or where you read this so I can read it in context. Second this is not something that I myself would ever want a child to read or have to deal with, at least till they are older and have the ability to understand. Because I believe as we have our daily walk with our Lord and Savior, we take steps to get closer and there is a time that things become clearer for us to understand better what these things mean to us. I hope I'm making this clear, because many times I do have a hard time saying things that others understand. I'm not very good with words, lets put it that way. :)

[John317]

I'm usually quiet when no one responds to my post. I would have to work to post 28,000 posts. That is about 215 posts per month and about 7 posts a day.

Maybe it helps to write really fast and to have worked on a newspaper where you have deadlines to meet all the time. No time to diddle-daddle.

28,000 posts are just fun for me, not work.

If someone doesn't repond quickly to a post of mine, I go on to another topic or begin another discussion or read the news or feed my cat or make some food or call my sister or daughter or kiss my wife.

It has to do with a difference in people's personalities, histories and abilities. Nothing more.

[John317]

Thou "doth protest too much, methinks."

I'm not protesting at all. I am trying to reason with you. What does the fact that I post more have to do with the fact that people shouldn't assume that if someone doesn't respond immediately, they are being "quiet"?

[John317]

I will repost it as I have to do with you most of the time because you ignore stuff you can't deal with.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

I don't ignore anything. I sometimes do not notice a post or a statement, but I don't intentionally ignore anything. I try to answer everyone in detail just as I would if we were in a face-to-face conversation.

Your statement here is similar to your statement that it was "amazing" how "quiet" I was simply because I didn't respond immediately to your post.

Originally Posted By: cardw

(quoting Ellen G. White): "Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life"

1T 158-164.

I read this as a kid

How old were you? And did you read the pages 158 to 164 and other writing by her on the same subject?

Originally Posted By: cardw

and I started praying and pleading with god to not kill me or put me in the lake of fire. "Please god! Please don't kill me or burn me up in the lake of fire. I freely admit that I am the chief of sinners and that I deserve the worst possible punishment. I know that my righteousness is a filthy rags. I give my life completely to you. Please, please, PLEASE don't kill me or torture me in the lake of fire. I beg of you please."

Is this fearful and trembling enough for you?

Maybe I should start cutting body parts off that cause me to sin like Saint Jerome?

Should I start flogging myself literally to prove my dedication?

I was terrified for years. I think I had the fear and trembling thing down.

Like I said, I took this very literally and very seriously. This is what it says to do. I did it and nothing happened.

No change is evidence of no change.

So don't you dare say I wasn't humble or dedicated enough. You have no idea the torture it is to believe, as a child, that you deserve to receive the worst possible punishment and if you don't you are going to face the time of trouble that will be worse than anything you can imagine. I contemplated this daily for years.

To teach a child this and to expose them to Ellen White's writings as infallible on this is child abuse. There are no blows on the outside, but the minute by minute fear, torture, and self loathing suck the life out of everything.

You can't reasonably blame the Bible or Ellen White for your experience, assuming that your description is accurate. Ellen White makes no statements that would lead anyone to think the things you claim you thought. As a kid, I read those same things, and many thousands of SDA kids have read them, yet neither nor they ever did or thought what you say you did.

Didn't you also read about God's love for you and about how Christ died for you in order for to live eternally with Him?

It is unfortunate and sad that you had that horrible experience, but I would by lying to you if I encouraged you to think it was due to taking the Bible and Ellen White literally.

Did you talk to any adults, such as your father, mother, or a teacher or minister, about what you were thinking?

Did they teach you to think that way at Sabbath School or in school?

[Pockey]

Quote:

"Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life" 1T 158-164.

I read this as a kid and I started praying and pleading with god to not kill me or put me in the lake of fire. "Please god! Please don't kill me or burn me up in the lake of fire. I freely admit that I am the chief of sinners and that I deserve the worst possible punishment. I know that my righteousness is a filthy rags. I give my life completely to you. Please, please, PLEASE don't kill me or torture me in the lake of fire. I beg of you please."

Is this fearful and trembling enough for you?

Maybe I should start cutting body parts off that cause me to sin like Saint Jerome?

Should I start flogging myself literally to prove my dedication?

I was terrified for years. I think I had the fear and trembling thing down.

Like I said, I took this very literally and very seriously. This is what it says to do. I did it and nothing happened.

No change is evidence of no change.

So don't you dare say I wasn't humble or dedicated enough. You have no idea the torture it is to believe, as a child, that you deserve to receive the worst possible punishment and if you don't you are going to face the time of trouble that will be worse than anything you can imagine. I contemplated this daily for years.

To teach a child this and to expose them to Ellen White's writings as infallible on this is child abuse. There are no blows on the outside, but the minute by minute fear, torture, and self loathing suck the life out of everything.

In regards to EGW's quote "Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life" she doesn't say pray for your mortal life. She says pray as eagerly as we would for our mortal life. She was giving an analogy and example. I don't think she meant for us to pray "please don't send me to hell" over and over without praying for repentance or confession as she taught in Steps To Christ. She was saying that the intensity or eagerness of our prayers should be as if our mortal life were at stake, not that literally our words should always be "please don't take my mortal life away" over and over. That takes the focus off of what we should be praying for.