Buying groceries on sabbath

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I confessed that I was the chief of sinners just like Paul. I would think following Paul's example would be a shoe in. I prayed for victory over sin and I expressed my willingness to turn away from lusting after women.

I had no lack of repentance and humbly asking for victory over sin.

It didn't work period. There was no justification. I made no excuses. I still make no excuses for my behavior. I take full responsibility for my behavior.

This is about what works and what doesn't work. The only thing I ever got from my Christian beliefs was fear, misery, and sorrow. I have no need to cling to them at all. There is plenty of joy, peace, and happiness without all the trying to figure out what god wants.

It makes no practical sense to me to believe in something that doesn't work.

Ok, I completely understand. Thank you for clarifying. Brother, one can have all the good intentions and prayer in the world, but it won't amount to much without the will. The will is the key. We can't change ourselves but we can choose to follow God. As we do that, our nature begins to change through His power. The more we choose Him, the closer He gets to us and changes us. When we're at crossroads to be tempted, we can choose to obey God, He can give us the power to resist the devil. This is the battle! The warfare against self is the greatest battle ever fought!

I agree that the self or one's ego doesn't act in the long term best interest of one's self. I agree that the will is the key. To choose is to change. I don't need a god to do that.

I find that it makes much more sense to base one's morality on reducing suffering and empathy. This whole idea of debating whether or not I get groceries on the Sabbath is evidence of a lack of consciousness.

I have found no evidence what-so-ever that all the willing in the world will stop men from lusting after women. Adultery is one of the big 10 so I don't think you are going to get into heaven without victory over that one.

So much for the literal interpretation.

[Gail]

One thing that we as parents and church members perhaps have lacked, and that is serious instruction on how God wants us to live.

I don't mean the list of dos and don'ts that we in our laziness like to dictate to others. We too often try to narrow God's ways into something graspable to us, and in doing so it becomes smaller and warped.

I mean, how to live with love as the first principle, upon which all the laws and commandments hang. So many times I stop in my tracks because I don't have even this basic down pat.

Those praises and that joy that nature springs up with with the dew each morning should be ours, too. Living the Golden Rule- with our energies into blessing others instead of fulfilling our own desires and making us seem right before those around us.

Maybe that is what those who have suffered hardship have that is the asset- they've been forced to decide what is real and essential to this, our short life. In that sense God may be closer to the questioners than we credit them for.

[John317]

...Or that we misunderstood.

Tom, what does the Bible teach regarding the destruction of the wicked?

Can we be certain of what the Scriptures teach on this topic?

[Gail]

Quote:

I have found no evidence what-so-ever that all the willing in the world will stop men from lusting after women. Adultery is one of the big 10 so I don't think you are going to get into heaven without victory over that one.

Bingo. All the willing in the world WON'T stop it, but a transformed heart. That goes for us who are Christians, too, no matter how long we've sat in the pews. It is what Christ told Nicodemus and it is what we need to believe- how unable we are and how our hope of doing so is through Him.

That is what I mean- we've been beat to death with the what. It's the how that is the miracle.

[cardw]

"And what exactly is "SWEET EVIDENCE" of pardoned sin?" - cardw

"9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a PURE CONSCIENCE."(1 Tim 3:9)

"7 And the PEACE of GOD, which PASSETH ALL UNDERSTANDING, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."(Phil 4:7)

Q.E.D.

I have a pure conscience now because I am honest with myself and as best I can with others. I take responsibility for my actions and I do my best to make amends for my mistakes. So do I have evidence of pardoned sin?

And this Peace of God that passeth all understanding doesn't really mean anything. You pass this cliche along as if it really means something.

I have more peace now than I ever did as a Christian.

So by the evidence the best way to be saved is to stop being a Christian.

[John317]

... This whole idea of debating whether or not I get groceries on the Sabbath is evidence of a lack of consciousness.

The Sabbath is important because it has to do with recognizing God as Lord and Master of our lives. It says that I acknowledge Someone who not only made me but saved me.

The recognition of the Sabbath is evidence of a raised consciousness of God. If we jettison the Sabbath, we're rejecting the God who made the Sabbath and the entire world.

Being careful to do what God tells us is like a child being careful to obey his father. Would you say it shows a lack of consciousness on a child's part to consider what his father told him to do?

Originally Posted By: cardw

I have found no evidence what-so-ever that all the willing in the world will stop men from lusting after women. Adultery is one of the big 10 so I don't think you are going to get into heaven without victory over that one.

So much for the literal interpretation.

I know from personal experience that through the power of the Holy Spirit, people can get the victory over lust and all kinds of immorality. There is no sinful habit that we can't gain the victory over through Christ. That includes hereditary weaknesses.

[Pockey]

To choose is to change. I don't need a god to do that.

I have found no evidence what-so-ever that all the willing in the world will stop men from lusting after women. Adultery is one of the big 10 so I don't think you are going to get into heaven without victory over that one.

You said you don't need God to choose to change, but then say you found no evidence that all the willing in the world will stop men from lusting. You're right, it is impossible to stop lusting on our own, that's why we need God! He can give us that victory!

[Q.E.D.]

Cardw,

Nice opinion. . .

Q.E.D.

[John317]

....You said you don't need God to choose to change, but then say you found no evidence that all the willing in the world will stop men from lusting. You're right, it is impossible to stop lusting on our own, that's why we need God! He can give us that victory!

Yes, He can and He does!

That is part of the gospel.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

"Do not neglect secret prayer, for it is the SOUL OF RELIGION. With earnest, fervent prayer, plead for PURITY OF SOUL. Plead as earnestly, as eagerly, as you would for your mortal life, were it at stake. Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for salvation, and the SWEET EVIDENCE is obtained of PARDONED SIN." {1T 163.3}

I prayed for purity of soul. Remember I read all of these writings and tried different things for 20 years. It didn't work period.

How old were you at the end of the 20 years?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

To choose is to change. I don't need a god to do that.

I have found no evidence what-so-ever that all the willing in the world will stop men from lusting after women. Adultery is one of the big 10 so I don't think you are going to get into heaven without victory over that one.

You said you don't need God to choose to change, but then say you found no evidence that all the willing in the world will stop men from lusting. You're right, it is impossible to stop lusting on our own, that's why we need God! He can give us that victory!

I have found no evidence for that in my own life at all. When I see a beautiful woman I lust after her. That's a biological imperative. Christianity has no power to change that based on what I observe and what I have experienced.

I have enough self control to not act on that lust, but I find no evidence that lust is going to go away any time soon.

[John317]

I have more peace now than I ever did as a Christian.

But that's not saying much, evidently, right?

Originally Posted By: cardw

So by the evidence the best way to be saved is to stop being a Christian.

The Bible's use of "saved" also means "healed."

Of course it is talking about being saved & healed from sins. I never heard of anyone being saved from sin by ceasing to follow Christ. It works just the opposite of that, in fact.

The Bible says those who don't have Jesus don't have life. Only those who have Christ can have life in the biblical sense.

What does that mean? It's "eternal life," isn't it? It says that those who have Christ have "eternal life" right now, in the present. Have you ever experienced that quality of life before?

Don't tell me it doesn't exist because I experience now and have been experiencing it for a number of years. I'm not alone. I know others who experience eternal life now.

[BobRyan]

You teach a literal interpretation of the Bible and Ellen White. I gave you an example of taking Ellen White literally had on my life and you ignored it.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I have more peace now than I ever did as a Christian.

But that's not saying much, evidently, right?

[BobRyan]

And I know many Christians who attest to the reality of the Gospel - many of them like Dr Veith used to be atheists.

In the end - the road to the lake of fire is not the great paradise and joy that some have made it out to be. Far better to choose eternal life.

in Christ,

Bob

[Pockey]

I'm totally open to have god change those in me.

Cardw this is awesome.

In regards to your lust comment, God can give you the victory over lust. I had a similar cherished sin in pride.

If I could share my testimony of God's power. I've been absent here for about a year because I was in the world, but God gave me victory. I made music and got a bit serious with it, and started making remixes/mashups. I started uploading songs on the internet and to make a long story short became shockingly successful. There's an internet music chart that takes songs from the internet's most popular music blogs and people vote on the songs. So if someone made their own song, it could potentially be voted higher than a major label song that was playing on the radio. It was an even playing field. Over the course of a year I had something like 6 number ones, and 14 top 3s. I got a weekly dj residency at a club and was djing once a week. Eventually I was getting gigs across the U.S. djing at parties, sadly even on the Sabbath.

Eventually there were 2 major music agencies that asked me to join them. Some of their artists were on major labels and charted on Billboard and iTunes. It seemed like a dream. It was a childhood fantasy come true. Playing music for a living, making people dance, meeting girls, partying etc. I was like, wow I could quit my day job. But as I became more known, I knew in my heart this was the wrong road. It became harder and harder to walk away as I become more successful. So I began to pray that God will eliminate this desire to pursue this from me. It seemed impossible. How could I walk away? I could NOT do it on my own will. I was having to much fun.

I prayed "God, take away this desire, make it grow strangely dim. Help me to walk away". On the 5th of July I was supposed to meet with the talent agency. Through His power I wrote him an email and said it wasn't for me. A few days later, I announced on my Facebook page and I explained how I was quitting to follow God, and later deleted my Facebook fan page (I was at 8 thousands fans in a few months and growing exponentially).

I say this only to give God the glory and to encourage you of the power God has. Walking away was a relief. It gave me happiness and peace. What I was doing gave me temporary happiness but always left me empty. It didn't fill the longing inside of me for something else. God filled that void. What is impossible for man is possible for God. He will give you the victory over any cherished sin such as lust! It's a daily battle. The greatest war ever. Don't give up!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I'm totally open to have god change those in me.

Cardw this is awesome.

In regards to your lust comment, God can give you the victory over lust. I had a similar cherished sin in pride.

If I could share my testimony of God's power. I've been absent here for about a year because I was in the world, but God gave me victory. I made music and got a bit serious with it, and started making remixes/mashups. I started uploading songs on the internet and to make a long story short became shockingly successful. There's an internet music chart that takes songs from the internet's most popular music blogs and people vote on the songs. So if someone made their own song, it could potentially be voted higher than a major label song that was playing on the radio. It was an even playing field. Over the course of a year I had something like 6 number ones, and 14 top 3s. I got a weekly dj residency at a club and was djing once a week. Eventually I was getting gigs across the U.S. djing at parties, sadly even on the Sabbath.

Eventually there were 2 major music agencies that asked me to join them. Some of their artists were on major labels and charted on Billboard and iTunes. Other djs on those rosters were making over 10k per show just to dj a few hours. It seemed like a dream. It was a childhood fantasy come true. Playing music for a living, making people dance, meeting girls, partying etc. I was like, wow I could quit my day job. But as I became more known, I knew in my heart this was the wrong road. It became harder and harder to walk away as I become more successful. So I began to pray that God will eliminate this desire to pursue this from me. It seemed impossible. How could I walk away? I could NOT do it on my own will. I was having to much fun.

I prayed "God, take away this desire, make it grow strangely dim. Help me to walk away". On the 5th of July I was supposed to meet with the talent agency. Through His power I wrote him an email and said it wasn't for me. A few days later, I announced on my Facebook page and I explained how I was quitting to follow God, and later deleted my Facebook fan page (I was at 8 thousands fans in a few months and growing exponentially).

I say this only to give God the glory and to encourage you of the power God has. Walking away was a relief. It gave me happiness and peace. What I was doing gave me temporary happiness but always left me empty. It didn't fill the longing inside of me for something else. God filled that void. What is impossible for man is possible for God. He will give you the victory over any cherished sin such as lust! It's a daily battle. The greatest war ever. Don't give up!

[Tom Wetmore]

A common experience of many of us, indeed! I really appreciate your "rant".

Especially:

Let us listen to what people like cardw have to say without constantly picking apart every statement to prove that he is wrong. From what I have read of what he has had to say, he is a decent and principled human being who cares deeply about what is just, right and fair. He is displaying plenty of what my Quaker friends call "that of God in every man." There seem to be too many people on this forum who are intent on breaking the bruised reed and extinguishing the smouldering wick, so to speak.

Words of truth to live by!

The 3-4 for everyone amongst us represents a lot of broken reeds and snuffed wicks...

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I'm totally open to have god change those in me.

Cardw this is awesome.

In regards to your lust comment, God can give you the victory over lust. I had a similar cherished sin in pride.

If I could share my testimony of God's power. I've been absent here for about a year because I was in the world, but God gave me victory. I made music and got a bit serious with it, and started making remixes/mashups. I started uploading songs on the internet and to make a long story short became shockingly successful. There's an internet music chart that takes songs from the internet's most popular music blogs and people vote on the songs. So if someone made their own song, it could potentially be voted higher than a major label song that was playing on the radio. It was an even playing field. Over the course of a year I had something like 6 number ones, and 14 top 3s. I got a weekly dj residency at a club and was djing once a week. Eventually I was getting gigs across the U.S. djing at parties, sadly even on the Sabbath.

Eventually there were 2 major music agencies that asked me to join them. Some of their artists were on major labels and charted on Billboard and iTunes. Other djs on those rosters were making over 10k per show just to dj a few hours. It seemed like a dream. It was a childhood fantasy come true. Playing music for a living, making people dance, meeting girls, partying etc. I was like, wow I could quit my day job. But as I became more known, I knew in my heart this was the wrong road. It became harder and harder to walk away as I become more successful. So I began to pray that God will eliminate this desire to pursue this from me. It seemed impossible. How could I walk away? I could NOT do it on my own will. I was having to much fun.

I prayed "God, take away this desire, make it grow strangely dim. Help me to walk away". On the 5th of July I was supposed to meet with the talent agency. Through His power I wrote him an email and said it wasn't for me. A few days later, I announced on my Facebook page and I explained how I was quitting to follow God, and later deleted my Facebook fan page (I was at 8 thousands fans in a few months and growing exponentially).

I say this only to give God the glory and to encourage you of the power God has. Walking away was a relief. It gave me happiness and peace. What I was doing gave me temporary happiness but always left me empty. It didn't fill the longing inside of me for something else. God filled that void. What is impossible for man is possible for God. He will give you the victory over any cherished sin such as lust! It's a daily battle. The greatest war ever. Don't give up!

I happy for you. The difference is that I don't feel empty.

I feel quite the opposite.

I have learned that when I am true to myself I am at peace and life is full. I have learned that it is very painful to lie to oneself.

When one is doing what their heart desires there is peace no matter what religion you are.

Christianity doesn't have an exclusive on happiness, fulfillment and peace.

I don't feel guilty when I feel hungry, why should I feel guilty when I'm attracted to a beautiful woman?

I observe every other mammal that is male have the same drive, why should we as humans be any different?

This obsession with the denial of the body is based on gnostic ideas of purity and Christianity absorbed it as part of the evolution of its beliefs as various influences formed to create it. It's made up by men and just like every other thing that is made up by men, it has its crazy ideas.

I choose not to act on every single desire I have because that's nuts too. Hopefully we can learn from our mistakes and form rational values based on reality rather than some 6th century iron age notion of what is moral.

I mean, come on, the 2nd commandment forbids sculpture of any kind. You really think that is the 2nd most important moral principle of all time?

I think we can tolerate a lot of sculpture before it becomes harmful. You could substitute just about any advice and exceed the moral value of the 2nd commandment. Like don't be cruel to children or don't eat high fat foods would be far more useful than the banning of sculpture.

I was willing to be changed for 20 years. I think that is long enough to figure out that there is no god doing any changing. Sometimes I feel silly that I waited that long.

[cardw]

Hence the flaw in CARDW's argument.

But he/she does have a point in one area - it would be pointless to pull a non-Christian aside and offer to debate the Sabbath or the viability of the prophetic ministry of Ellen White or the doctrine on Baptism etc.

You have to start at the beginning - the reality of sin, a lost world, the warning of hell, creation, the Gospel.

And for every lost person that tries to sell you the benefits of choosing a lost path - there are as you point out millions of Christians that will offer their testimony as to the blessings of choosing salvation.

These facts are beyond dispute.

in Christ,

Bob

And yet millions of people follow Islam and claim the same thing. Are they right too?

It is a logical fallacy to use numbers as a justification of truth.

It is quite possible for millions of people to be completely wrong.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

...Or that we misunderstood.

Tom, what does the Bible teach regarding the destruction of the wicked?

Can we be certain of what the Scriptures teach on this topic?

Perhaps if you considered and demonstrated understanding of all I said and not just snippets that further your agenda without regard to what I actually meant, I might feel more inclined to be more responsive.

But it seems to me that either you have chosen to ignore what I actually meant in order to play pin the tail on the heretic, or you really didn't understand.

Go back and read as one continuous conversation what fccool posted, your response and my immediate addition to the possible alternatives you posted and then my follow-up thought -

"We are, after all, the weak link in all this. We are known for making mistakes and being confused. That is the mark of sinful man."

Do you understand what I meant now?

[cardw]

Being careful to do what God tells us is like a child being careful to obey his father. Would you say it shows a lack of consciousness on a child's part to consider what his father told him to do?

You claim that I don't understand truth from an adult perspective. What you are stating here proves that your belief is childish.

Adults are self governed. Children need to be told what to do.

You are asking me to behave like a child.

[Overaged]

Perhaps if you considered and demonstrated understanding of all I said and not just snippets that further your agenda without regard to what I actually meant, I might feel more inclined to be more responsive.

But it seems to me that either you have chosen to ignore what I actually meant in order to play pin the tail on the heretic, or you really didn't understand.

That is not what John 317 is doing at all. You might want to practice your own council and read all that he has been posting in context.

[John317]

Being careful to do what God tells us is like a child being careful to obey his father. Would you say it shows a lack of consciousness on a child's part to consider what his father told him to do?

Originally Posted By: cardw

You claim that I don't understand truth from an adult perspective. What you are stating here proves that your belief is childish.

I never said you don't understand truth from an adult perspective. I said I want to understand what you think about the truth from an adult perspective. You had been telling me what you thought of it as a child. You misunderstood what I said. Perhaps I didn't express it clearly. If that's the case, I apologize.

But do you believe that adults don't need God and don't need to obey Him?

[John317]

....it would be pointless to pull a non-Christian aside and offer to debate the Sabbath or the viability of the prophetic ministry of Ellen White or the doctrine on Baptism etc.

You have to start at the beginning - the reality of sin, a lost world, the warning of hell, creation, the Gospel.

Very true. That is why God in the Bible doesn't command Gentiles to keep the Sabbath. Such a command would have been pointless. God only gave the invitation to Gentiles to keep the Sabbath after they were in covenant relationship with Him. See Isaiah 56. No sense "keeping" the Sabbath if you don't even believe in the true, living God. In fact, a person who's without faith in God cannot possibly keep the Sabbath. So what you say above is exactly right.