Buying groceries on sabbath

[John317]

Continued

Ellen White on principles of Sabbath keeping:

Quote:

I pointed to the blacksmith's shop, silent on the first day of the week, and the noise of hammering and of the anvil and clatter of iron on the Sabbath. And then close by was the marble shop, and the sound of hammer and chisel mingled with the prayers of a people who are professedly honoring God by observing His Sabbath. {21MR 340.3}

Entering into the ears of God is all this din and all this confusion, I said, dishonoring God on your very premises, under your control. The Lord has sent you a message to which you are to take heed. You may regard it as an idle tale, but I tell you, in the day of God you will know the things which I tell you are verity and truth. {21MR 340.4}

I related to them that, when in America, I was shown the work in Norway, the church in Christiania in particular, and the slow advancement they were making. The standard of piety and of truth was very low. The truth was made a matter of convenience. Rather than bringing themselves up to the Bible standard they were making their business and their own selfish interest the standard. God will accept no such service. {21MR 340.5}

An angel of God said, "Look and observe carefully what this people are doing, mingling their own dross with pure truth." I had Sara present to report, and will not make the statement I designed to make, but have the words copied and then will have it more exact. Now, said I, I expect you may, some of you, consider my words as idle tales, but you must meet them in the judgment and I must meet them. I cannot abate one iota from their severity. {21 MR 341}

All heaven is keeping the Sabbath, but not in a listless, do-nothing way. On this day every energy of the soul should be awake, for are we not to meet with God and with Christ our Saviour? We may behold Him by faith. He is longing to refresh and bless every soul. 481 {CCh 267.4}

Divine mercy has directed that the sick and suffering should be cared for; the labor required to make them comfortable is a work of necessity, and no violation of the Sabbath. But all unnecessary work should be avoided. Many carelessly put off till the beginning of the Sabbath little things that should have been done on the day of preparation. This should not be. Any work that is neglected until the commencement of holy time should remain undone until the Sabbath is past. 482 {CCh 267.5}

While cooking upon the Sabbath should be avoided, it is not necessary to eat cold food. In cold weather let the food prepared the day before be heated. And let the meals, though simple, be palatable and attractive. Provide something that will be regarded as a treat, something the family do not have every day. {CCh 267.6}

If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath. {CCh 267.7}

When compelled to travel on the Sabbath we should try to avoid the company of those who would draw our attention to worldly things. We should keep our minds stayed upon God and commune with Him. Whenever there is opportunity we should speak to others in regard to the truth. We should always be ready to relieve suffering and to help those in need. In such cases God desires that the knowledge and wisdom He has given us should be put to use. But we should not talk about matters of business or engage in any common, worldly conversation. At all times and in all places God requires us to prove our loyalty to Him by honoring the Sabbath. 483 {CCh 268.1}

Attending School on Sabbath

Whoever obeys the fourth commandment will find that a separating line is drawn between him and the world. The Sabbath is a test, not a human requirement, but God's test. It is that which will distinguish between those who serve God and those who serve him not; and upon this point will come the last great conflict of the controversy between truth and error. {CCh 268.2}

Some of our people have sent their children to school on the Sabbath. They were not compelled to do this, but the school authorities objected to receiving the children unless they should attend six days. In some of these schools, pupils are not only instructed in the usual branches of study, but are taught to do various kinds of work; and here the children of professed commandment-keepers have been sent upon the Sabbath. Some parents have tried to justify their course by quoting the words of Christ, that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day. But the same reasoning would prove that men may labor on the Sabbath because they must earn bread for their children; and there is no limit, no boundary line, to show what should and what should not be done. {CCh 268.3}

Our brethren cannot expect the approval of God while they place their children where it is impossible for them to obey the fourth commandment. They should endeavor to make some arrangement with the authorities whereby the children shall be excused from attendance at school upon the seventh day. If this fails, then their duty is plain, to obey God's requirements at whatever cost. {CCh 268.4}

Some will urge that the Lord is not so particular in his requirements;

that it is not their duty to keep the Sabbath strictly at so great loss, or to place themselves where they will be brought in conflict with the laws of the land. But here is just where the test is coming, whether we will honor the law of God above the requirements of men. This is what will distinguish between those who honor God and those who dishonor him. Here is where we are to prove our loyalty. The history of God's dealings with his people in all ages shows that he demands exact obedience. {CCh 268.5}

If parents allow their children to receive an education with the world, and make the Sabbath a common day, then the seal of God cannot be placed upon them. They will be destroyed with the world; and will not their blood rest upon the parents? But if we faithfully teach our children God's commandments, bring them into subjection to parental authority, and then by faith and prayer commit them to God, he will work with our efforts; for he has promised it. And when the overflowing scourge shall pass through the land, they with us may be hidden in the secret of the Lord's pavilion. 484 {CCh 269.1}

A Day of Rest From Worldly Pursuits

It is the grossest presumption for mortal man to venture upon a compromise with the Almighty in order to secure his own petty, temporal interests. It is as ruthless a violation of the law to occasionally use the Sabbath for secular business as to entirely reject it; for it is making the Lord's commandments a matter of convenience. "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God," is thundered from Sinai. No partial obedience, no divided interest, is accepted by Him who declares that the iniquities of the fathers shall be visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him, and that He will show mercy unto thousands of them that love Him and keep His commandments. It is not a small matter to rob a neighbor, and great is the stigma attached to one who is found guilty of such an act; yet he who would scorn to defraud his fellow man will without shame rob his heavenly Father of the time that He has blessed and set apart for a special purpose. 485 {CCh 269.2}

The words and thoughts should be guarded. Those who discuss business matters and lay plans on the Sabbath, are regarded of God as though they engaged in the actual transaction of business. To keep the Sabbath holy, we should not even allow our minds to dwell upon things of a worldly character. 486 {CCh 269.3}

Completed

[cardw]

My advice to church would be... stop lying to kids, and stop lying to yourself. Stop telling them that they will turn into Jefrfrey Dahmer if they watch pornography. Pornography is just a video of people having sex. That's all it is. It's exciting to watch for young people, because it's something that's kept secret from them. Thus, it becomes "special" and "exciting". Then coupled with fear and guilt, it enters the cycle of reinforced addiction. If it was properly and adequately explained, shown and demonstrated in proper context... it would not be a matter of obsession. It would be normal human behavior that can be contextualized with proper ideals and consequences. It should not be the "biggest secret" that adults are keeping from them.

Yet instead people grow up with idea that sexuality is taboo, and that it's wrong in any visual context of it outside of medical drawings. There's really no difference between a medical drawing demonstrating human sexuality, and that of pornographic nature. That's why the issue is so stupid. Sex should not be shown as larger than it is. It's a relatively insignificant part of human life, when it comes to time spent during the activity. Sexuality should be viewed as natural progression of humans towards forming a family.

I took this approach with both my sons and porn is not a problem in their lives at all. To them it's rather ridiculous. I've discovered that porn seems to be far more interesting to the religious.

C.S. Lewis makes a comment that if we went to a show where they slowly revealed a plate of vegetables we might think that culture had some problems with vegetables.

Here is a link to multiple statistics on porn use by Christians including pastors.

Porn Statistics

The studies go from 50 to 90 percent use of porn by Christian men.

It is painfully obvious that Christian belief does nothing to change this.

[Pockey]

I think that it was a realization that God is much more mature and bigger than people who claim to know Him and explain Him. What was happening to me, and the fixation was primarily due to guilt and fear, because the problem was blown out of the proportion in my own mind, and thus actually made me believe that I have no control over it, while I've had full control.

Once I came to realization that porn is just of people videotaping themselves having sex, and that playing it in reverse has the same exact effect... it became silly and stupid. I can't believe that I was stressing out over watching it. I was curious, and that curiosity, coupled with fear, prohibition, and thrill seeking ... it was pushed into obsession. It should never have been if I was dealt with honestly. Porn will only destroy you if it's made into something larger than life, and that's exactly what church does.

When you realized porn was just people videotaping themselves and thus silly and stupid, does that mean you no longer viewed porn? If you stopped watching it, was it because it was silly that you stopped watching it, or was it because you were convicted that it was sin? I'm curious because you said you were addicted to porn. So I'm wondering what caused you to no longer be addicted to it, or did you no longer view it as an addiction and that it was ok to look at it?

[John317]

And what were you looking for? In other words, in what way didn't "it" work?

Originally Posted By: cardw

... Christianity promised peace and joy in my life. It also promised victory over sin. It did not deliver on any of these.

Perhaps you were expecting the wrong thing when you expected "victory over sin." The Bible doesn't promise that believers will have complete victory over all sin at once. It's a step at a time. The Holy Spirit doesn't even point out all sins in our life at one time. That would be overwhelming to anyone. For instance, let's suppose a person is convicted that it is sinful to watch porn. Once God gives him victory over that sin, the Holy Spirit will convict him of yet another sin in his life.

But how do we gain victory over any sins in our life? Do we gain the victory by simply making up our mind that we won't do those things any more? Some people think so, but it's not that way.

How would you answer?

Originally Posted By: John3:17

It sounds like you were doing a lot of "works" without completely trusting Christ. Did you realize that no one is saved or put right with God because of his works?

Originally Posted By: cardw

There it is. I must not be doing it right. I read Morris Venden, Erwin Gain, Ellen White, and all the various righteous by faith materials. Still didn't work.

But you apparently didn't truly grasp what you were reading. An evidence of this is that you now say Ellen White's writings don't mean anything.

Erwin Gain was one of my favorite teachers at Pacific Union College. Do you remember what you read by him?

How do the people you mentioned above say people are put into right relationship with God?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

... Christianity promised peace and joy in my life. It also promised victory over sin. It did not deliver on any of these.

Perhaps you were expecting the wrong thing when you expected "victory over sin." The Bible doesn't promise that believers will have complete victory over all sin at once. It's a step at a time. The Holy Spirit doesn't even point out all sins in our life at one time. That would be overwhelming to anyone.

[John317]

But how do we gain victory over any sins in our life? Do we gain the victory by simply making up our mind that we won't do those things any more? Some people think so, but it's not that way.

How would you answer?

Originally Posted By: cardw

John it's like you don't read my posts at all. I've told you that I've tried everything available to me for over 20 years. You would think I would have an answer. No results means that I don't know.

Richard, I am asking you what your answer would be on the basis of everything you studied. I'm not asking you to give your answer on the basis of your experience of victory. But what did the things you read-- including the Bible, EGW, Erwin Gain, Morris Vendan-- tell you about how to gain victory over temptations, sins, bad habits, etc.?

I'm trying to find what you were thinking and how you understood what you were reading.

According to those sources,-- based on your study of them at the time you were a believer-- what is the first step in gaining the victory and in experiencing the peace and joy of Christ?

I believe I know what you're talking about when you say you struggled a long time to find it without success. I did the same-- for about 30 years.

[Overaged]

This is stuff made up by men who were obsessed with purity and when they found out that the body doesn't co-operate with their ideas of purity they concluded that it must be bad. You find early church fathers castrating themselves and obsessing over their fantasies of dancing girls. It becomes quite evident that this ego driven control dysfunction that the early church fathers had made it into the Bible and Christian culture from the start.

John, all this crazy stuff is made up.

One of the most marked and hopeful signs of our time is the increasing attention given on all sides to the study of Holy Scripture. Those who believe and love the Bible, who have experienced its truth and power, can only rejoice at such a Book. They know that "the Word of God liveth and abideth for ever," that "not one tittle" of it "shall fail;" and that it is "able to make wise unto salvation, through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

Accordingly they have no reason to dread the results either of scientific investigation, or of searching inquiry into "those things which are most surely believed among us." For, the more the Bible is studied, the deeper will be our conviction that "the foundation of God standeth sure." (see 2 Tim 2:19)

[cardw]

Richard, I am asking you what your answer would be on the basis of everything you studied. I'm not asking you to give your answer on the basis of your experience of victory.

You see I don't think 30 years is proof of success. A lot of times it is simply age that reduces the desire for sex. If we would see a vast majority of young Christian men gain mastery over this aspect of their lives that would be proof. But as I posted before the stats are not good. Studies done by Christian organizations themselves show 50 - 90 percent of Christian men view porn.

But, to give you an outline of how I understood salvation this is what I did.

I gave my life to Jesus by surrendering my will to him. I confessed my sins and asked to be forgiven. I asked Jesus to change my heart and direct my life in the manner of his choosing. I asked god for faith to trust and believe. I studied and witnessed to other people. I did this daily.

[BobRyan]

cardw - your "deny all" solution to every witness in favor of the power of God only goes so far.

At some point even you will have to come up for a breath of objectivity.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

One of the most marked and hopeful signs of our time is the increasing attention given on all sides to the study of Holy Scripture. Those who believe and love the Bible, who have experienced its truth and power, can only rejoice at such a Book. They know that "the Word of God liveth and abideth for ever," that "not one tittle" of it "shall fail;" and that it is "able to make wise unto salvation, through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

Indeed. In such a time as this 1000's and even millions are turning from darkness to light in the Gospel - while some of the formerly privileged few who had the gospel - turn from light to darkness.

Let each man make his own choice and then comes the point of Rev 22 where all are firmly settled on one side or the other of life.

in Christ,

Bob

[Pockey]

I've tried everything available to me for over 20 years. You would think I would have an answer. No results means that I don't know.

...all this crazy stuff is made up.

Was there one day in those 20 years that He gave you victory over sin? Out of those 7300 days, if there was one day that He gave you victory, He can give you victory again today as well. One day at a time. He can give you victory even if there were zero days out of 7300.

It sounds like you're saying you believe it's all made up because you couldn't overcome certain sins, for example, lusting after a woman. It's not a sin to be tempted. I don't believe we can deny the existence of God or the truth of the Bible just because God may decide not to remove certain inherent sinful traits within us. An alcoholic may always crave alcohol, but through God's power, day by day, she will resist the temptation to drink. The days become weeks, which become months and years where she has had her last drink. Through a constant relationship with Him, she has obtained victory and even her desire for alcohol has waned or even disappeared.

We have to do our part too through our choices. If she were to willingly go to a bar, or to Vegas, then she's placed herself in a position where it will be harder to resist temptation.

[fccool]

I think it's important to understand that signing your every post with "In Christ" ignores that some of your posts may not be so.

Christ is not primarily about judgement and condemnation. Christ about understanding and "sacred service", which is our care for people. Etymology of sacrifice is sacre = Sacred facare = service or to serve.

I find it interesting that you take it upon yourself to judge who is worthy of God's forgiveness and eternal life, and who is not. Thus it's not very surprising that I will find you quoting things like "they turn down the eternal life" quite often. The only thing that people are turning down is the religious regurgitation of irrational thinking. You see, you can't level on rational grounds as to "why", so you resort to quotes and statements by "authority". Thus you are making appeals to authority to prove yourself correct.

The hard truth is that some people will never overcome the detrimental habits in their lives. Some will go for years without porn, and then will once again fall into the cycle, only to come out again and then leave it again. Some will go for years without smoking or drinking, only to return.

In your mind, because they have these weaknesses, they deserve to be burned before God with millions of people watching and observing "god's Justice". It's not by mistake that I've capitalized one word over other, because that's what's important to such people. They are not concerned with issues of understanding, empathy, support, and forgiveness. They are concerned with making sure that they "fix the world" by means of "justice", which in essence does not fix anything. It only condemns, and executes.

It's ironic that the only way for such people to understand forgiveness, empathy and grace is for them to end up in the same situation that they condemn other people for being in.

This entire discussion of "thought crime" brings back the scenes of minority report, where people are convicted and given prison sentences for the crimes that they were are to commit in the future. The truth is that the future may be very different, and that some people are on the way to "redemption" through the means of going through means of going through certain path.

These people need empathy instead of judgement.

You are not helping at all. It's not your job to point out who turns from darkness to light and other way around. Your job is to love and to forgive... as you have been forgiven.

[Overaged]

I think it's important to understand that signing your every post with "In Christ" ignores that some of your posts may not be so.

Christ is not primarily about judgement and condemnation.

Christ is our Judge. And it's not your job to tell Christians what their "job" is.

[fccool]

Quote:

Was there one day in those 20 years that He gave you victory over sin? Out of those 7300 days, if there was one day that He gave you victory, He can give you victory again today as well. One day at a time. He can give you victory even if there were zero days out of 7300.

Here's the issue, sid, and that's one of the reasons that I decided not to answer your previous questions. You speak through what I describe "magic words". Not in terms that they fix anything, but in terms that they are very vague and don't offer much practical direction.

Here's a guy who day after day is trying to explain to you that the "solutions" that you offer do not work. They merely replace addiction with denial and suppression.

We are told, only if you pray more and read the Bible and try to follow it. Only if you come to church more. But that's not what certain things are about, especially if these are a part of who you are. It's like telling a person that "if you pray enough, and you read your Bible, you will not want certain food that you like". It's ridiculous. It's like saying, I can make you forget the fact that Australia exists.

There's no amount of praying and fasting that will undo your preferences and wants.

There only way to live properly is to understand that these wants will always be there, and that you will have a good chance of failing. It's like going to Olympics with disadvantage that you know exists and saying, "With God's help, I can win this thing". It's ridiculous. You won't "win". That's not how you "win" in Christian life. Christian life is a struggle, but above all it's continual empathy and understanding.

Quote:

It sounds like you're saying you believe it's all made up because you couldn't overcome certain sins, for example, lusting after a woman. It's not a sin to be tempted. We cannot deny the existence of God or the truth of the Bible just because God may decide not to remove certain inherent sinful traits within us.

That's not what he's saying. Imagine someone telling you that having a pinky on your left hand is a sinful act worthy of death. Now, that would be ludicrous, right?

Now, imagine someone who says that having a foreskin is an act worthy of death. Now, that makes sense in context, right?

Now, in the same manner, examine the statement that reads "Anyone who desires or imagines to have sex with any woman who is not his wife deserves death". That's completely reasonable.

The point being is that this approach to Christianity only looks at crime and punishment. It does not look at the events from standpoint of understanding and empathy. It's "I am the law" Christianity from Judge Dredd:

[fccool]

Christ is our Judge. And it's not your job to tell Christians what their "job" is.

In that case, it's not your job to tell other people how to live "according to the Bible". In that case, all we have left to do is empathy, understanding, and support.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Christ is our Judge. And it's not your job to tell Christians what their "job" is.

In that case, it's not your job to tell other people how to live "according to the Bible". In that case, all we have left to do is empathy, understanding, and support.

Your defensive answer only makes your case even weaker than it already is.

It is Every Christians job to tell others what they have read and experienced from the Bible. (see 1 John 1:1-3); and it is every Christian's job to "judge righteous judgement." (see John 7). Are you going to try and tell us you are responding here with all this "empathy, understanding, and support" you are harping about?

[fccool]

My empathy and understanding is on behalf of those who are oppressed in such case and those who are more deserving of it. It's not the people with the stones in their hands that needed the empathy. It's the person who they were about to stone. Christ simply shown them that they are not better, but what you are saying is that you are essentially better and that you have that right to go around and tell everyone that what they are doing is wrong every time they share their doubts or disagreements. You make it your job and obligation to pick up those proverbial stones as a duty, because it was written in the Bible to stone anyone who breaks the law. Well, you see, that's not what it was about, and these people went away horrified realizing that they are not better.

I do have empathy for such people, because I do feel sorry for them, especially when they think that whatever they say and do is "In Christ", when other do question it.

They claim to "help people", while at the same time they do nothing but drive them away through imposing expectations that they themselves can't live up to.

[Overaged]

My empathy and understanding is on behalf of those who are oppressed in such case and those who are more deserving of it. It's not the people with the stones in their hands that needed the empathy. It's the person who they were about to stone. Christ simply shown them that they are not better, but what you are saying is that you are essentially better and that you have that right to go around and tell everyone that what they are doing is wrong every time they share their doubts or disagreements.

I do have empathy for you, because I do feel sorry for such people, especially when they think that whatever they say and do is "In Christ", when other do question it.

Well; I am sorry but I don't want your "empathy." I totally reject it because you impose it so out of context and out of place. You have no way of knowing who needs such things just from a few internet posts. And you are the judgmental one by deciding who is "more deserving of it."

[fccool]

In that case, practice what you preach? Or, will you keep on setting the double-standard of "Bible tells me that I'm correct?"

If I can't tell, the you can't tell either. And that's somewhat my point. You can't, and I can't. I don't know you. I don't know or understand your circumstances.

Now, when one comes to this forum in rational disagreement, the stones seems to fly... In Christ.

[cardw]

cardw - your "deny all" solution to every witness in favor of the power of God only goes so far.

At some point even you will have to come up for a breath of objectivity.

in Christ,

Bob

Objectivity requires some production of evidence. All any of you has produced is claims. The evidence says otherwise. And it is evidence collected by Christians, so it's not biased.

Instead of making all this stuff up about what I'm trying to do, why don't you produce something of substance.

[Overaged]

In other words we are not to question you in any way or we don't "practice what we preach??" Great. Where have we heard that before?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

cardw - your "deny all" solution to every witness in favor of the power of God only goes so far.

At some point even you will have to come up for a breath of objectivity.

in Christ,

Bob

Objectivity requires some production of evidence.

Says who?

[fccool]

You are correct. I can objectively say that moon is made of green cheese

Although, to be fair, you are somewhat correct. Objectivity does not merely require evidence. Objectivity requires honest evaluation of both sides of the argument, which should be substantiated by evidence.

If you are evaluating an argument, and one side presents evidence, and the other presents unsubstantiated claims, and you choose to go with claims ignoring the evidence. You are not being objective.

But, I don't think Christianity ever had a claim to be objective, neither I believe that any of us can truly be objective.

Although, most Christians, including myself, make exceptions of logic and reason that they would not make otherwise. So, the argument from objectivity is somewhat futile in this case. So is the argument based on evidence, because Christianity is not written in a way to be "proven beyond the shadow of the doubt". It's written to work through mystery.

Frankly, life is a mystery, and it does not bother scientists to think of possible theories. Christian claims are viable possibility that people believe in. Some of the most intelligent people believe in, and I don't think we can call their argument irrational... and I can show you plenty of debates that would support that.

To some degree, arguing these things from ontological perspective is a waste of time. Human and universal ontology is unknowable. That's our limitation, and we should embrace it.

I think what makes a difference about certain ideals is the fruits of these ideals. Christianity has been responsible for some most atrocious things at its worst and some of the most wonderful things at its best. The same goes for secular humanism.

So, from perspective of the "fruits" we are in the same boat. The difference becomes whether we use our beliefs to tear each other down, or help each other and build each other up.

I don't care if someone can quote Bible back and forth, and recite points of Adventist theology. If that's all there is to it, the a secular humanist who sacrifices themselves for the good of other, who works earnestly to make lives better for people around them, who loves people and helps them... that guy is a better Christian than Adventist who clams to be and merely tries not to "make mistakes".

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I've tried everything available to me for over 20 years. You would think I would have an answer. No results means that I don't know.

...all this crazy stuff is made up.

Was there one day in those 20 years that He gave you victory over sin? Out of those 7300 days, if there was one day that He gave you victory, He can give you victory again today as well. One day at a time. He can give you victory even if there were zero days out of 7300.

It sounds like you're saying you believe it's all made up because you couldn't overcome certain sins, for example, lusting after a woman. It's not a sin to be tempted. I don't believe we can deny the existence of God or the truth of the Bible just because God may decide not to remove certain inherent sinful traits within us. An alcoholic may always crave alcohol, but through God's power, day by day, she will resist the temptation to drink. The days become weeks, which become months and years where she has had her last drink. Through a constant relationship with Him, she has obtained victory and even her desire for alcohol has waned or even disappeared.

We have to do our part too through our choices. If she were to willingly go to a bar, or to Vegas, then she's placed herself in a position where it will be harder to resist temptation.

You assume that reject Christianity simply because of this one issue. If you study the history of how Christianity was put together it becomes quite obvious that it is being made up. It is a syncretic collection of beliefs, cultural norms, political moves, dogma, and superstition.

I think one can easily demonstrate this by the idiotic attention people give the Sabbath day. There is no rational argument to show that not keeping the Sabbath is harmful in a way that causes death. It comes from a collection of 10 laws, the 2nd being the banning of sculpture.

If I gain any victory over anything it is because I have chosen to resist it. There is no evidence that god has anything to do with it. Now if I noticed after I prayed about it that I lost all desire to do something that would be remarkable.

There is no way to determine is it is me doing it or god doing it when you present this idea that I had one day of victory. That isn't victory.

I would say the single most successful thing that I have done to change my life is to do 12 step work. It is practical and it is easy to see how it changes one's life. I have applied its principles to many things and it makes my life happier and more authentic. It doesn't require you to believe in god for it to work. But even 12 step work says that it has nothing to say about sexuality.

It has a lot to say about honesty, fear, and resentment. Christianity teaches fear and promotes secrecy through shame. One simply has to read this thread to see that. And Christians practice resentment because they think everyone is persecuting them even though they are in the majority.

So based on evidence there is absolutely no reason that I can see that Christianity has anything of value to offer that you can't get somewhere else in a clearer more concise way.

[cardw]

Frankly, life is a mystery, and it does not bother scientists to think of possible theories. Christian claims are viable possibility that people believe in. Some of the most intelligent people believe in, and I don't think we can call their argument irrational... and I can show you plenty of debates that would support that.

Everyone has to come to the table with a set of assumptions. Christianity's assumptions aren't internally logical. Simply saying that Christianity comes from mystery doesn't really fit with how Christians say they know.

I recognize that life is a mystery, but I don't make claims about things I can't possibly know. I also can recognize ideas that are immature compared to what I have read and worked through in my life. Most Christians that I meet are pretty immature. And most Christian teachings that I experienced and I see taught tend to keep people immature and dependent.

I am not the only one who sees this. There is a reason that non-believers tend to be smarter, as a group, than believers. They are not limited by a belief system that condemns reasoning when reasoning reveals the flaws in their belief system. There is a commitment to intellectual honesty because most of us have paid the price of not following that.