Buying groceries on sabbath

[Pockey]

I obviously have enough self control to not act on my instinctual desires when it comes to women. The problem is, according to Jesus, adultery has already happened once I experience desire for a woman.

[Overaged]

I obviously have enough self control to not act on my instinctual desires when it comes to women. The problem is, according to Jesus, adultery has already happened once I experience desire for a woman.

There are a lot better methods to use to simply control behavior. It's the promise that I would be changed that never happened.

[Overaged]

If we have to pray every moment we are tempted in order to gain victory then that's what we have to do. I have found that when I do this He gives me victory. And I mean a persistent prayer, not a quick rushed prayer where I've already secretly decided to sin regardless of my prayer. But a prayer over and over for victory. He has given me victory every time I have persisted. I have also realized that when I decide not to pray for victory, it's because I want to commit the sin. And that is my fault.

[Pockey]

Absolutely!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The truth is nobody knows what Ellen White means because it doesn't mean anything.

If "NO ONE" knows what she means; how would you happen to "know" that "it doesn't mean anything?" That does not comply with solid reasoning, or anything else that can be understood.

Ok, you take a shot at it.

What does she mean?

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]quote=cardw]

The truth is nobody knows what Ellen White means because it doesn't mean anything. /quote]If "NO ONE" knows what she means; how would you happen to "know" that "it doesn't mean anything?" That does not comply with solid reasoning, or anything else that can be understood./quote]

Ok, you take a shot at it.

What does she mean?

But you didn't answer my question. Is it because you know I am right?

[cardw]

Let's look at what He said: "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:27-28 He says lust. Just because you see a woman and are instantly attracted to her doesn't make it a sin. It's the lust part that's the sin, which means, looking a little bit longer than we should, and allowing thoughts to creep into our heads that we shouldn't. I know you guys know what I'm talking about.

OK, give me a Bible quote to prove your position here. Jesus doesn't really give us all that much explanation. Again, as usual, there is not a lot of clarity on these matters when we input reason here. Now if we read it literally...

The Greek word literally means desire. It is simply translated as lust in this particular verse. The early church certainly interpreted this as simply desire, as evidenced by its intense interest in celibacy as a cure. In fact the text itself lowers the bar to a mere look so your idea that one has to linger to enter into sin doesn't have support. I don't think you have any Biblical support for your position even though it would seem to be reasonable.

I wouldn't quibble on this, but according to Christian belief understanding this is essential to my eternal life. If a person gets it wrong, and apparently there are snares all over the place to trap us, then you lose your eternal life.

Are you willing to bet your eternal life on an idea that has absolutely no clear Biblical support?

[cardw]

But you didn't answer my question. Is it because you know I am right?

I'm not trying to prove a negative. That is something you are making up in your own mind.

The problem is that no one seems to have an explanation. Of course she could have a very insightful position here once someone points it out, but as time goes by it seems less and less likely.

How long do we wait before we realize that you can't make sense out of nonsense? It seems less and less likely that she has anything to say here.

To prove me wrong you simply have to provide a clear and reasonable explanation of what she means.

And yet you continue to make up positions I haven't taken and refute them. Go ahead and make up all these imaginary positions and have a conversation essentially with yourself.

[cardw]

No it's God's power. If you only knew how enormous a sinner I am and what a weak fool I am, you would agree.

If you are a weak fool, as you say you are, why should I listen to you?

[Overaged]

So, in other words; I have to keep answering your questions; and you are refusing to answer even one of mine. OK

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Sid

No it's God's power. If you only knew how enormous a sinner I am and what a weak fool I am, you would agree.

If you are a weak fool, as you say you are, why should I listen to you?

Are you saying you are not like us, and you are not also a weak fool?

[Pockey]

The Greek word literally means desire. It is simply translated as lust in this particular verse.

[Pockey]

Originally Posted By: Sid

No it's God's power. If you only knew how enormous a sinner I am and what a weak fool I am, you would agree.

If you are a weak fool, as you say you are, why should I listen to you?

So you only listen to the strong?

On my own I am weak. Through Him I have strength

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Sid

No it's God's power. If you only knew how enormous a sinner I am and what a weak fool I am, you would agree.

Originally Posted By: cardw

If you are a weak fool, as you say you are, why should I listen to you?

Are you saying you are not like us, and you are not also a weak fool?

This has nothing to do with claims of superiority. It has to do with expertise.

I'm admitting ignorance on how to be saved. I have written post after post of my lack of success. If you can't figure out that I'm admitting ignorance on this topic by now I don't know what to tell you.

I would think that someone who was wise and strong would have a better chance of answering my question don't you?

[cardw]

Well your link also says it means lust. The verse says "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." It seems pretty clear to me what He is saying. Help me understand how you interpret it. Are you saying that if a woman walks by in your field of vision and you are attracted to her that that is sin? I don't believe that is what He is saying man. That doesn't make reasonable sense to me. I can understand what a burden that it must be if that is what you believe.

The only problem is that this greek word is translated as lust in only this verse. In all other cases it is translated as desire. The word lust was not used before the 16th century.

So based on the facts, however unreasonable, the word means desire. There is in fact no greek word for lust.

If we are to be honest, reading this literally without imposing our own reasoning on the text, Jesus is saying that simply looking with desire on a woman is committing adultery.

You claim that it means to linger has no basis in fact.

If you have some facts to indicate otherwise I'm open to reading them. When I was a Christian I looked for some evidence otherwise and I could never find it.

This text has a couple of disturbing texts following it. Jesus says to gouge your eye out if it causes you to sin. So maybe we should gouge our eyes out to prevent us from looking at women lustfully because we want to follow the words of Jesus.

The next text says to cut your hand off if it causes you to sin. Maybe if we cut our hands off we won't be able to masturbate?

There is no clear way to read these. Some of the early church father's took these literally and cut body parts off. Is that what it takes to be saved?

If you are going to appeal to reason, why do we need the Bible?

[cardw]

No it's God's power. If you only knew how enormous a sinner I am and what a weak fool I am, you would agree.

Originally Posted By: cardw

If you are a weak fool, as you say you are, why should I listen to you?

So you only listen to the strong?

On my own I am weak. Through Him I have strength.

Well isn't god supposed to be strong and we're supposed to listen to him.

Should I listen to fools?

Look I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just pointing out that if you are going to appeal to reason then be reasonable on all things.

[Pockey]

Well isn't god supposed to be strong and we're supposed to listen to him.

Should I listen to fools?

Look I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just pointing out that if you are going to appeal to reason then be reasonable on all things.

No offense taken. I am not sure if you missed the part where I said through Him I have strength! Every gift, talent and power I have comes from Him. I can take no credit. Without Him I am nothing. And yes, I am a fool for Christ

p.s. you don't sleep? :D

[Doug]

I heard from one person that thinks if you use a credit card to pay for stuff on Sabbath it's kosher: You are not actually purchasing anything and no money is transferred. I agree with this. But then you are getting into legalism, something I think is hurting the church.

[John317]

The problem is that no one seems to have an explanation. Of course she could have a very insightful position here once someone points it out, but as time goes by it seems less and less likely.

How long do we wait before we realize that you can't make sense out of nonsense? It seems less and less likely that she has anything to say here.

To prove me wrong you simply have to provide a clear and reasonable explanation of what she means.

Each of us is individually responsible to find our way spiritually. In the ultimate sense, none of us is going to be able to blame anyone else for where we spend eternity. I can't find the truth and salvation for you, and neither can I get inside your head or heart and tell you what you have or have not experienced. So it is utterly impossible for anyone to analyze someone else's spiritual experience and tell them all the answers to what their particular problem is. I can direct you to possible solutions, but in the final analysis, you have to decide what you are going to do and whether you want Christ in your life. Others can pray for you and urge you to accept Him, but it's your choice.

If, after all the study you've done, you make up your mind that God does not exist and that the Bible and Ellen White are all lies, then that is your decision, and the point comes when you have to live and die with what you choose.

God commands me to love you and to care about you and to never stop treating you with love and dignity, but God does not tell us that we must convince you of God's existence or of the truth of the Bible. At some point you must take responsibility to either find the truth or reject it.

Whether I am able to give you all the answers that you agree with or that you accept doesn't determine whether Christ is real or whether Ellen White is a liar. One person's experience doesn't prove or demonstrate these things. It wouldn't make sense to judge something this important on something of so slight a foundation.

[John317]

...The only problem is that this greek word is translated as lust in only this verse. In all other cases it is translated as desire. The word lust was not used before the 16th century.

So based on the facts, however unreasonable, the word means desire. There is in fact no greek word for lust.

It is true that the word itself (Strong's #1939) means desire, or strong desire, but the context helps to determine when it has refernce to good desire and evil desire.

For instance, it refers to good desire in Matt. 13: 17; Luke 22: 15; 1 Tim. 3: 1; Hebrews 6: 11; 1 Peter 1: 12.

But what does the same Greek word-- epithumhsai, as it occurs in Matt. 5: 28-- mean in Romans 7: 7; 13: 9; Acts 20: 33; 1 Cor. 10: 6; Gal. 5: 17; and James 4: 2?

In those instances, it means to desire for what is forbidden, contrary to God's law. It is usually translated as "covet" in the commandments. God's commandments are not commanding us not to have any desire whatsoever. Obviously there are good and bad desires.

To "covet" something or someone is to desire to have that which does not belong to us. This is the definition of lust. All wrong actions begin with wrong desires and wrong thoughts. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with translating the word as "lust." See all the Greek-English lexicons.

Anyone we're not married to does not belong to us. They actually belong to God. He both made them and paid for them with His life. Therefore we have no right to them. So it is sinful to desire them. It is actually desiring to steal them from God and to use them not as full persons created by God but as objects for our selfish purposes and pleasure.

[John317]

...

If we are to be honest, reading this literally without imposing our own reasoning on the text, Jesus is saying that simply looking with desire on a woman is committing adultery.

You claim that it means to linger has no basis in fact.

If you have some facts to indicate otherwise I'm open to reading them. When I was a Christian I looked for some evidence otherwise and I could never find it.

It means to desire a woman or a man wrongly according to God's law.

Matt. 5: 28 says it is wrong to look with the purpose of desiring a woman wrongly. It says this by its use of the preposition, pros.It refers to the person's intentions or motives in looking at someone.

So this verse does not prohibit us from noticing that someone is handsome or very beautiful. God wants us to notice and appreciate people's beauty or good looks. There's nothing wrong with that. The wrong is in having the desire to use them for our selfish, sinful pleasure. On our own, apart from God's Spirit and without a new heart, it is utterly impossible not to have these wrong desires. See Galatians 5: 16-24.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...The only problem is that this greek word is translated as lust in only this verse. In all other cases it is translated as desire. The word lust was not used before the 16th century.

So based on the facts, however unreasonable, the word means desire. There is in fact no greek word for lust.

It is true that the word itself (Strong's #1939) means desire, or strong desire, but the context helps to determine when it has refernce to good desire and evil desire.

For instance, it refers to good desire in Matt. 13: 17; Luke 22: 15; 1 Tim. 3: 1; Hebrews 6: 11; 1 Peter 1: 12.

But what does the same Greek word-- epithumhsai, as it occurs in Matt. 5: 28-- mean in Romans 7: 7; 13: 9; Acts 20: 33; 1 Cor. 10: 6; Gal. 5: 17; and James 4: 2?

This is too general. When we look at a woman is there any good desire according to the Bible? Women are pretty despised in the Bible. That's the context.

Jesus says" I desire to eat this passover with you before I suffer" (Luke 22:15)

Does that mean Jesus is lustfully desiring to be with the disciples? Does this mean that Jesus was gay?

You impose a context by previous assumptions and belief.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The problem is that no one seems to have an explanation. Of course she could have a very insightful position here once someone points it out, but as time goes by it seems less and less likely.

How long do we wait before we realize that you can't make sense out of nonsense? It seems less and less likely that she has anything to say here.

To prove me wrong you simply have to provide a clear and reasonable explanation of what she means.

Whether I am able to give you all the answers that you agree with or that you accept doesn't determine whether Christ is real or whether Ellen White is a liar. One person's experience doesn't prove or demonstrate these things. It wouldn't make sense to judge something this important on something of so slight a foundation.

I have not said this. You selectively answer the problems. Notice you don't address the cutting off of hands and gouging of eyes advice of Jesus.

You haven't even attempted a reasonable explanation of what Ellen White means by the will. I know you won't because you know the controversy surrounding this Ellen White passage and it will only serve to show the great confusion around what she means.

This passage is quoted by those who think the law saves us, those who think we are saved by grace, those who think we are saved by trying with god's help and a whole host of conflicting solutions.

This is a a cop out. You are basically saying go work it out on your own when you don't have it worked out in a form that makes sense.

[Overaged]

You haven't even attempted a reasonable explanation of what Ellen White means by the will. I know you won't because you know the controversy surrounding this Ellen White passage and it will only serve to show the great confusion around what she means.

This is a a cop out. You are basically saying go work it out on your own when you don't have it worked out in a form that makes sense.

When will you answer my last question? You havent even attempted a "reasonable" answer. I know you won't because you know I am right. Your cop-out has been noted.

[fccool]

The woman in that verse should be translated as "wife", and "desire" should be translated as desire to commit adultery. Reading too much into what was said results in a severely perverted view of repressed sexuality by means of guilt that's very unhealthy.

Men can admire a woman's looks. That's how we are built. Likewise, we have a very specific individual "preferences", which is likewise how we function. The issue becomes when this sexual drive is used in a way that destroys human relationships rather than building these. That's the issue, and not looking at someone with underlying idea that you are sexually attracted to them.

You can't read "desire to have sex with a female who is not your wife" as a "sinful desire" into this passage. That's not what the subject of it is. Let's be honest, we don't choose our wives by reading their autobiographies and admiring their wits. There's a complex of things that make us prefer one woman over other, and sexual preferences are among the complex of these things. The same goes for ladies. Sexual imagination is a given of any individual with imagination. Imagination is expression of a possibility in your mind.

Yet, what church is done is to pervert this completely natural view into "though shalt not imagine". It's our imagination that should drive us to realization of certain consequences. If one desires to have sex with neighbors wife through imagination, and then the very same imagination leads them to further examine the consequences, why would it be sinful? Isn't that the entire point of acting mature?