Buying groceries on sabbath

[skyblue888]

I can't find the truth and salvation for you...

John317

________

Are you sure about that John?

Was not Peter sent to Cornelius to teach him the truth, the way of salvation? The Bible is full of such examples, as you know. So what exactly did you mean by "I can't find the truth and salvation for you?"

When I thought I had found the truth years ago my first impulse was to share it with others who had not found it. And is this not our first duty, to help others find the way the truth and the life?

sky

[Overaged]

Wow; I can't believe what I am readng here. You say the church has "perverted" this teaching? Lets put this another way. If I ever see someone "imagining" (as you call it) with/to my wife; I'll be the first in line to change the position of their ears.

[Overaged]

This has nothing to do with claims of superiority. It has to do with expertise.

I'm admitting ignorance on how to be saved. I have written post after post of my lack of success. If you can't figure out that I'm admitting ignorance on this topic by now ...

Well; it's all fine and dandy to say it like this to justify your course, but I see your "admissions" as accusations. They are well-styled as such, and I am finding it hard to even believe your story anymore because of the nature of your posts.

And no matter how you fiddle with semantics of "lust" or "desire" or whatever you want to "admit" that it is; you can't change how people see it; or how Jesus meant it. Strictly limiting the meaning of Bible text to semantics never reveals the full meaning or intended context of most Bible verses. Certainly not with this one. You don't "admit" ignorance on how to be saved when you use same to constantly decry the worthless nature of Christianity; and say all that you do about Christianity and the Bible...After thinking about it and reading over a lot of posts; I see you as accusing Christians and the Bible, period.

You don't have to be an "expert" to know what adultery is; in the mind, or in person. Why don't you "admit" something that is real for a change? People here have tried to be nice to you & you still argue with them...

[cardw]

When will you answer my last question? You havent even attempted a "reasonable" answer. I know you won't because you know I am right. Your cop-out has been noted.

I don't even know what you are talking about.

If you need to be right then OK you're right.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]When will you answer my last question? You havent even attempted a "reasonable" answer. I know you won't because you know I am right. Your cop-out has been noted. /quote]

I don't even know what you are talking about.

If you need to be right then OK you're right.

I don't care about being "right" I am just asking you, the same way you have been asking others, to please answer my question. Just read back a few posts/pages to find the last question I asked you...My point is not be be right, but that you are wrong about your accusations re the Bible and christianity.

[BobRyan]

My point about millions believe - is simply that for your one complaint - there are a lot of success examples - including examples of muslims turning to Christianity and even atheists/agnostics like Walter Veith turning to Christianity.

Thus your "I am witnessing against Christianity" claim is fine as a witness "of one". But it is hardly overwhelming evidence of anything but the sad fact that there continue to be some Christians today who choose to turn their backs on eternal life. (As limiting as that strategy of theirs sounds)

in Christ,

Bob

[fccool]

Wow; I can't believe what I am reading here. You say the church has "perverted" this teaching? Lets put this another way. If I ever see someone "imagining" (as you call it) with/to my wife; I'll be the first in line to change the position of their ears.

First of all, you won't know what they imagine. It does not merely mean that they are going to drool over your wife. They can be in a completely different place.

My points that you've failed to address.

1) Imagination is a part of human psyche. We are visual human beings. When I say "dirty toilet", it paints a certain picture in your mind. It's uncontrollable at times via dreams. There's nothing wrong with imagining the possibilities. Imagination does not equal desire.

2) Sexual desire is not "sinful". Adultery is. I certainly am not saying that woman should be judged by their looks. It's somewhat shallow view of sexuality. There's much more to it. But the issue here is of imagination, and imagining sexual concepts. Christianity tends to equate these things with pornography and the act itself. It's silly.

Pondering what would it be like to steal a candy bar is the same as the act of stealing?

Is imagining getting in a car crash after imagining getting drunk the same as actually getting drunk and wrecking your car?

Is imagining healing a person the same as actually healing them?

Is imagining donating $1000 to the church the same as donating $1000?

Or, does it only work with taboo things?

[fccool]

Quote:

If "NO ONE" knows what she means; how would you happen to "know" that "it doesn't mean anything?" That does not comply with solid reasoning, or anything else that can be understood.

If I ask you to guess an object inside of the box that you can't see... it's a lot easier to guess what's no in there, than what is in there.

No one can understand better the true meaning of your intent ... than yourself.

[fccool]

My point about millions believe - is simply that for your one complaint - there are a lot of success examples - including examples of muslims turning to Christianity and even atheists/agnostics like Walter Veith turning to Christianity.

That's true. The number of people believing or disbelieving something... or the "famous experts" who renounced or turned to something is not an indicator of veracity.

One should examine the ideas for themselves.

People generally take it as offense when one says, "I don't think what you believe is true." A sign of mature human being is in fact not trying to guilt them into saying that they "reject the eternal life and God", but to respect their choice.

[Pockey]

First of all, you won't know what they imagine. It does not merely mean that they are going to drool over your wife. They can be in a completely different place.

What did you mean by "imagine" then? Holding hands and skipping down the street whistling kumbaya?

[Overaged]

[cardw]

My point about millions believe - is simply that for your one complaint - there are a lot of success examples - including examples of muslims turning to Christianity and even atheists/agnostics like Walter Veith turning to Christianity.

Thus your "I am witnessing against Christianity" claim is fine as a witness "of one". But it is hardly overwhelming evidence of anything but the sad fact that there continue to be some Christians today who choose to turn their backs on eternal life. (As limiting as that strategy of theirs sounds)

in Christ,

Bob

My point is that Christianity doesn't work for everybody and other methods produce similar or superior results.

That means that Christianity can't claim to be the only way. In this respect it is wrong based on the evidence.

I think if you surveyed the majority of Christian men you will find that a vast majority of them still fantasize about women other than their wife or girlfriend.

When Christian conventions come to a hotel the rate of porn watching sharply rises in comparison to other types of conventions and seminars.

If Christianity worked so well you would think Christianity as a group would show better results.

So your point isn't even addressing what I have said. I have never refuted people's claims that it has changed their life individually because I have no way to determine that.

I have my doubts about their claims because I think the evidence indicates that it is the individual themselves that changes. Belief is powerful but I think if they believed in anything that claimed it could change their life they would change. It is quite evident that Christianity does not have an exclusive on change.

[cardw]

When will you answer my last question? You havent even attempted a "reasonable" answer. I know you won't because you know I am right. Your cop-out has been noted.

Originally Posted By: cardw

I don't even know what you are talking about.

If you need to be right then OK you're right.

I don't care about being "right" I am just asking you, the same way you have been asking others, to please answer my question. Just read back a few posts/pages to find the last question I asked you...My point is not be be right, but that you are wrong about your accusations re the Bible and christianity.

[cardw]

My points that you've failed to address.

1) Imagination is a part of human psyche. We are visual human beings. When I say "dirty toilet", it paints a certain picture in your mind. It's uncontrollable at times via dreams. There's nothing wrong with imagining the possibilities. Imagination does not equal desire.

2) Sexual desire is not "sinful". Adultery is. I certainly am not saying that woman should be judged by their looks. It's somewhat shallow view of sexuality. There's much more to it. But the issue here is of imagination, and imagining sexual concepts. Christianity tends to equate these things with pornography and the act itself. It's silly.

Pondering what would it be like to steal a candy bar is the same as the act of stealing?

Is imagining getting in a car crash after imagining getting drunk the same as actually getting drunk and wrecking your car?

Is imagining healing a person the same as actually healing them?

Is imagining donating $1000 to the church the same as donating $1000?

Or, does it only work with taboo things?

This is all very reasonable, but when are some of the teachings of the Bible based on reason?

I agree with the absurdity of condemning someone for thinking about sex, but I'm not sure how you can get around the statement by Jesus that says if one simply looks at a woman with sexual desire they have committed adultery.

It appears that you are stating that someone has to actually do the adultery before it is condemned.

I guess you could be right about tithe. If I think about giving tithe then I have given tithe, because it's the thought that counts.

[Q.E.D.]

I read our whole library of Ellen White books, including the Conflict of the Ages series, The Bible commentaries, and Messages to Young People, etc. etc. Because this was the Spirit of Prophecy and it held the secrets of a successful and joyful life. Hardly.

"Because this was the Spirit of Prophecy and it held the secrets of a successful and joyful life. Hardly." - cardw

Hardly?

Millions of Christians disagree with you.

And sure you will claim millions do agree with you.

Who are they?

[John317]

The woman in that verse should be translated as "wife",

The Greek word is gynee, and the first definition in any lexicon is "woman." It is usually a married woman but it need not be. It is a word that is used of females generally.

But the sins of fornication and adultery are the main topic of this verses, and Jesus is saying that these sins don't require physical contact between people. They begin in the mind, just like murder begins in the thinking. Jesus isn't saying that it's OK to lust after an unmarried girl or woman. Therefore all translations that I've looked at translated gynee in Matt. 5: 28 as "woman," not as "wife." In fact, it is best translated as "female."

Some men go out looking to lust after young girls. Or even after young boys. It's all included under the sins that Jesus is referring to.

[John317]

I agree with the absurdity of condemning someone for thinking about sex, but I'm not sure how you can get around the statement by Jesus that says if one simply looks at a woman with sexual desire they have committed adultery.

Yes, you're right that it is not wrong simply to think about sex. Nor is it wrong for a man or woman to wish they had a husband or wife.

What's sinful is wanting a particular unmarried man or woman for sex. Why? Because it is coveting and wanting something or someone that does not belong to us.

Both stealing and adultery or fornication begin in the mind.

God is able to give us the victory over the practice of all these sins.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

The woman in that verse should be translated as "wife",

The Greek word is gynee, and the first definition in any lexicon is "woman." It is usually a married woman but it need not be. It is a word that is used of females generally.

But the sins of fornication and adultery are the main topic of this verses, and Jesus is saying that these sins don't require physical contact between people.

1) 10th commandment says ______, but I tell you that if you intend to commit adultery in your mind... the only thing that's missing is opportunity.

That's the proper context. Sure, we can stretch it to include all "mind fornication", but I don't believe that's the context of this verse.

2) Sure, we can discuss imagining having sex with someone's wife, and I'm certainly not defending the concept.

The issue is when the idea of imagining having sex applied universally as sin. It's not, otherwise, we should likewise apply imagining doing good as righteousness. I.E. I imagined helping that person, or I imagined donating $10,000 to the charity.

Thus it becomes the guilt-ridden concept of fundamentalism that feeds on guilt and fear of other. It makes sex as something very dirty and disgusting to the point that imagining it is akin to murdering people. Neither girls nor boys can avoid imagining having sex as a sexual beings. It's as natural as breathing, or thinking about other possibilities.

Instead of explaining the proper purpose of sexual relationship, the church instead makes people guilty of lust. And because they can't avoid it, they end up hiding behind the masks and playing a role.

The reality of the issue is church perverting the view of sex, instead of restoring it to its proper place.

[fccool]

What's sinful is wanting a particular unmarried man or woman for sex. Why? Because it is coveting and wanting something or someone that does not belong to us.

Let me give you two instances:

1) I walk into the store and see a basketball. The basketball is not mine. I think about it buying it, and imaging playing with it in the back yard.

2) I walk into the store, and there's a basketball laying there. I then think about stealing it, and imagine playing with it in the back yard.

Now, as an example, and to show you where you entire view of this thing should be thrown into garbage... and as far away from our young people as possible:

1) I see a beautiful woman. I have no intention of having sex with her, neither pursuing her, but a thought crosses my mind of what I imagine that would be like. I realize that I'm doing that, and I see through the consequences, and I understand that such possibility would not be ideal. I choose not to pursue this possibility.

2) I see a woman, and I intentionally undress her with my mind, and imagine having sex with her... and given opportunity I would do that.

There's a clear difference between &1 and &2. There's absolutely nothing wrong with considering possibilities. That's what our mind is for, and it does it almost automatically.

The difference is how we channel and act on these possibilities. If we set out to act out a certain possibility given an opportunity, that's the context of what you are talking about. If a man is set in his mind to do something.. That's the proper context. Imagining something is quite different.

Church today is turning people into porn addicts, because they are being treated like little kids. They should be leveled with as adults, and driven towards having certain ideals... instead there's "thought police" that teaches that people are rejecting God because they imagine a certain possibility.

It's absurd.

[John317]

1) I see a beautiful woman. I have no intention of having sex with her, neither pursuing her, but a thought crosses my mind of what I imagine that would be like. I realize that I'm doing that, and I see through the consequences, and I understand that such possibility would not be ideal. I choose not to pursue this possibility.

2) I see a woman, and I intentionally undress her with my mind, and imagine having sex with her... and given opportunity I would do that.

There's a clear difference between &1 and &2. There's absolutely nothing wrong with considering possibilities.

We're pretty much in agreement here in terms of the differences between those possibilities.

But let me ask you if it would be OK for a non-practicing gay person to do the same as regards imagining what it would be like having sex with another member of their own gender?

[fccool]

The churches today are either in complete ignorance of guilt/addiction cycle psychology... or they are aware of it, and use it to manipulate people.

When a person is addicted to a substance like drugs or an experience like sex, it usually causes them to feel guilt and shame about their addiction. Addictive behavior exposes a weakness and a dependence on something outside of ourselves to give a sense of well-being.

When we see our self as weak and needy, it often causes us to feel ashamed of our weakness, which actually intensifies our neediness. Addiction creates a cycle of ever increasing addictive behavior resulting in guilt and shame which in turn motivates an increase in dependence on the addiction for comfort.

This cycle is a guilt and shame cycle that at a point in the addiction history, becomes self perpetuating and makes it difficult to break.

The church, instead of helping people to break out of the cycle, does completely opposite. It intensifies it. It makes them feel worthless, and thus dependent on their addiction for "escape" from that feeling of weakness.

It tells them that "God knows what you do in secret. Those of you who are watching pornography in secret, or lusting after women... God knows". And in fact, a completely opposite effect is achieved. People are scared, they feel guilt, when they are reminded of that guilt they are reminded of their addiction and weaknesses, thus associative link is created in respect to that cycle.

[fccool]

Quote:

But let me ask you if it would be OK for a non-practicing gay person to do the same as regards imagining what it would be like having sex with another member of their own gender?

I do that, and that's how I can confirm that I'm not gay. I can imagine what it would be like, and I can know that I won't really enjoy it.

But, irrelevant of enjoyment factor, there's a difference between imagination and pursuit of something in your mind. You can imagine and be horrified. You can imagine liking something yet understanding the consequences.

I can imagine killing someone, yet my imagination usually extends beyond certain act and towards further exploration of consequences. Even if you imagine enjoying something, it's a far cry from setting your mind on doing it.

Even imagining having sex with someone, does not mean that I will do it even given opportunity and consent. It's a fiction book that your mind writes. Call it the pornography of mind, but in essence that's all it is.

People don't look at porn to lust. They don't turn on their computer thinking,"Ok, let's lust today. I really want to have sex with THAT woman right now". They are not idiots. People generally look at porn to satisfy a certain curiosity of possibility. That's why it's appealing to them. They get hooked because they have addictive personalities, and then it gets in the mix with certain triggers that they respond to by turning to porn.

Church does very little to help them be free from it. In many cases, it actually intensifies their addiction. I can't tell you how many times I've been there personally, and have friends crying to me about this issue. Neither I, nor them had to be there, and to do that. But in essence the mind programing plays out in such a way that it drives people back to the things that they "should not do".

"Don't think of pink elephant". That's what it really is about. When you tell kids, "Pornography will destroy you." They don't get the proper view of sexuality. There's two factors now: curiosity and guilt. And once they are hooked in the cycle, it's very difficult to break from in the church setting, as ironic as it may sound.

And that's the entire point. We should look at this issue as mature adults, and not wave a finger to each other's face "No, no, no. You should not think that!".

Thinking and imagination makes us what we are. If we don't imagine possibilities, than we simply run on autopilot. We can't make proper choices.

[John317]

Is it OK to for a believer to wish he could sin?

Is it OK for a gay person to wish or think about having sex with a member of his/her own gender?

I don't think anyone would claim that God's word condemns an unmarried man or woman for thinking of marriage to another person. But it is not wishing they could have sex outside of marriage.

Doing wrong has its origins in wishing to do wrong. I believe there's a clear distinction between experiencing the temptation to do wrong and continuing to consider and dwelling on doing wrong even after one is conscious that's it's wrong. When we dwell on doing sin, we're asking for serious trouble.

Jesus was tempted to dwell on sin, but He refused. Had Christ dwelt on it, He would have sinned.

Give the thought of sin over to Christ immediately. Don't consider it or dwell on it for a moment. That's our only safety.

[fccool]

Quote:

Is it OK to for a believer to wish he could sin?

It's all a matter of perspective. I can tell you that it's not ok, but believing in something does not get rid of our desires.

I have to be honest, and I still desire to eat shrimp and clams. I like the taste, but I understand the consequences and I don't take out a map and run to the nearest seafood place, because my priorities and loyalties overshadow that desire.

And that's the entire point! It's ok for believer to desire to sin. It will always be there. That's a part of being human. The difference is to be strong and mature enough to prioritize your desires, and ignore them for something else.

Christ really desired not to go through with God's plan. It was a strong desire. There's nothing wrong with desiring something. Action is what matters.

Quote:

Is it OK for a gay person to wish or think about having sex with a member of his/her own gender?

Yes, it's ok. They can't help it. My wife has gestational diabetes right now, and she really craves cookies and ice cream. She craves it to the point of insanity. Sometimes she actually acts out a little play in front of me with her eating and enjoying the cookies and ice cream and she describes how these taste.

But she loves the baby more than her desires, and she simply ignores them.

That's what love does. These desires will always be there. It's part of what makes us who we are, but it does not mean that we have to act on them.

That's honest reality, and church makes people feel guilty about even thinking and wishing certain things, while they genuinely love God, and are acting accordingly.

Quote:

I don't think anyone would claim that God's word condemns an unmarried man or woman for thinking of marriage to another person. But it is not wishing they could have sex outside of marriage.

Marriage is not a ceremony with a priest and congregation. Marriage is a lifetime commitment to a person, which can be done without ceremony. It's a mutual understanding.

But even in our context, the issue here is not with "perfection", but rather honest humanity. The church puts on a mask, when it pretends that these things are no longer issue among people who truly believe. It's not true. It's a lie. It's a play of ignorance.

That's the reason you hardly hear these issues are brought up. The reality is opposite of "the claim", and it makes people very uncomfortable.

If we simply looked at it with very honest perspective to strive to making things right, while understanding the weaknesses of other, things would be much better. But instead, we put on "masks of perfection" and act like these things don't happen to believers. They do. And we need to support these people, and not shove "it's wrong" in their faces.

Quote:

Doing wrong has its origins in wishing to do wrong. I believe there's a clear distinction between experiencing the temptation to do wrong and continuing to consider and dwelling on doing wrong even after one is conscious that's it's wrong. When we dwell on doing sin, we're asking for serious trouble.

When you live in a way that you have to constantly restrain yourself, and then feel guilty over thinking something, you will most likely end up obsessing over the very thing that you are trying to avoid.

When I first became Christian at age 16, I remember I was obsessing about sex. I never understood why, until very recently. I've never had the same problem prior, because it was presented by my parents very differently. They talk to me about it as it was normal to have these desires and feelings. But they also showed that I've had a choice to ignore them for something better. My parents are not Christian either. I remember my dad saying after I asked him to go to a party when I was 15,

"Son, you can go to the party, and you can drink and have fun, and hook up with the girls and have all of the sex in the world. I've done it, and it's fun. I would not be upset with you if you did that. But, 20 years down the road, you will be doing the same things, and I believe that you can do better than that. If you concentrate on things that are more important, then you really have a chance at achieving something better. All I can say, you really have a chance to be better than me, and make the best of your life. The choice is yours."

Since then, I've never really had anyone put it that way. I wanted to be "better me". And the choice was mine. And everything was sort of a background noise then... things like smoking, sex, drugs, alcohol. I viewed them as something that would stop me from being better, and I never really obsessed over any. All that in non-Christian family.

I came to a Christian school at age 16, and as I remember it, I honestly was knocked the fear of God right into me. I did watch porn a couple time prior, but now it became addicting because it was coupled with thrill of being caught, the guilt that driven constant reminder of worthlessness, and the idea that i can't overcome it "apart from God". And it drove me to it, day after day.

Looking back on it, it's so stupid... but at the same time throws me into rage when I know what church does to our young people today. Once I understood why, and that I really had no reason to be afraid of God, or feeling constantly guilty for the things I've done, the porn issue went away.

It's normal to make mistakes. It's normal to be curious. It's normal to fall. That's the condition we are in. We are not perfect. Perfection does not exist in pure form of in humans. We constantly need something. We are constantly incomplete. And viewing that as normal is the first step to realizing that things can be better, and can be done better.

Quote:

Jesus was tempted to dwell on sin, but He refused. Had Christ dwelt on it, He would have sinned.

Quote:

Give the thought of sin over to Christ immediately. Don't consider it or dwell on it for a moment. That's our only safety.

John, listening to you preaching to me really aggravates me, simply because I believe that such mentality is not a part of the solution. Is a part of the problem. I say that with honesty and respect that you deserve.

You speak in impractical metaphors that have very little literal application or meaning to them. "Give the thoughts of sin over to Christ" is impractical metaphor that does not exist in the reality. You can't give the thoughts of something to somebody else. That's not how it works in reality. And I'm not going to pretend that I understand what you mean by that, because it does not make sense.

You can't avoid the thoughts of sin. It will always be there. You will always want something, you will always dream about something, you will always feel that you need something. You will always feel the possibilities. You will always read something that other people did, and put yourself in their situation subconsciously. That's how human mind works. And that's the honest approach. Simply understanding something, or understanding consequences does not strip us of our desires.

We paint a dishonest picture of Christianity, where people are stripped of wanting the bad stuff, and they right away turn into this perfectly walking and talking human beings... but that's a mask. You know it is. You know it's dishonest. You know that all of us still have problems, but our understanding keeps us from causing harm to each other. That's the reality of Christianity, and it should make us more understanding instead of being more judgmental.

Coming back from example of my dad's view of it, the only true way to overcome all of this silliness is to concentrate on certain goals, and approach these desires with honesty... without restraint.

If you approach it from the standpoint of policing the thoughts, then you only end up fighting the problem which will never go away.

You can either police the crime, or give people employment and other activities that would naturally lower the crime.

As church, we should be more understanding.

[CoAspen]

Not a reply, but an observation......

Since this is NOT a religious topic in the general Townhall and we are NOT talking about the sabbath or any other religious topic, sin, etc,....maybe we should just get back to buying some food to eat!!! Cheerios or steak, it whats for dinner!!