Neil D Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Quote: Objective truth is that which God reveals to us in His Word. For instance, God's Word tells us that He exists and that He loves us and has demonstrated His love throughout history. Christ's life, death, and resurrection, are objective proofs that He loves us. It's a basic rule of communication- The communicator sends a message to a reciever who recieves it. The message can get garbled in many places- everything from how the communicator forms his words, what words he chooses, the words expressed, the tone, the gestures to the receiver's interpretation of the words....All these forms of communication doesn't allow for "objective truth" in the human being....It only allows for subjective communication at best. And by subjective communication, I am saying that what is communicated is imprecise, not necessarily clear and thus, is not objective, that is, not black and white... That is why we have so many religions, even within Christendom...it is also why we can not get over the evolution/creation debates.... And while concepts are expressed, and can be communicated, "objective Truth" can not...you can not get universal agreement upon what is "objective truth".... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
LifeHiscost Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Man on His own cannot be objective. The Word of God is objective truth. Its truth doesn't depend on our subjective experience or our feelings or our opinion. For instance, God commands us, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." It is wrong to bear false witness against our neighbor no matter what our subjective experience is. We may think it is OK to bear false witness, but the objective word of God says it is wrong. We don't wait to verify the objective word of God before we believe it and act upon it. The same can be said for all of God's moral law. If we wait to verify it by our subjective experiences, we are telling God that His Word is not sufficient but that we need our own experiences before we believe Him. That's what Abraham and Sarah did when they tried to help God fulfill His promises. It leads to works righteousness and to putting man in God's place. God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators John317 Posted August 27, 2011 Moderators Posted August 27, 2011 :-) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Overaged Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 What did we ever do before the Emerging Church/post modernist ideas come along for us to blame all the ills of the church on?!?! Hmmm; I am trying to find the post where someone did this. I wonder if you could help us? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Overaged Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Neil D Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 The Word of God is objective truth. Its truth doesn't depend on our subjective experience or our feelings or our opinion. For instance, God commands us, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
LifeHiscost Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Quote from Mark Mowry (episode 158) "The only thing you can know for sure is your experience." Wait a minute. Experience can be deceptive, can't it? Dare we determine ultimate truth by our experiences? hmmm, g Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators John317 Posted August 27, 2011 Moderators Posted August 27, 2011 ..All these forms of communication doesn't allow for "objective truth" in the human being....It only allows for subjective communication at best. ....And while concepts are expressed, and can be communicated, "objective Truth" can not...you can not get universal agreement upon what is "objective truth".... Is universal agreement requried in order for there to be objective truth? Are you stating objective truth-- or is what you've said here subjective truth and not necessarily true? When God judges the world, will His decisions and what happens to people depend on how people feel about it? Is it objectively true that Christ came to this world, died, and was resurrected? Or does it depend on how people feel about it? If I feel or believe that Christ didn't come and die, does it change the truth of what Christ in fact did? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Neil D Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Is universal agreement requried in order for there to be objective truth? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Overaged Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Ah, the ol' "If a man goes into a forest and utters a word, is he still wrong" argument.....For you, how you interpret the scripture is good for you...It is incumbant upon you to interpret scripture as honestly and as thoroughly as you are able and remain true to your calling in Christ..... How's that for an answer? One can indeed be "honestly" wrong. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Moderators John317 Posted August 27, 2011 Moderators Posted August 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Is universal agreement requried in order for there to be objective truth? As an adventist, you should know that there must be a standard....lol So the question should be-How can there be objective truth if there is no universal agreement as to what it is? And if you still believe that there is objective truth, then why is there so many denominations among Christendom? The problem is that there is no truth that is universally recognized by all humanity. But does that fact mean there is no such thing as objective truth? The many different denominations isn't evidence that there is no objective truth. The different denominations can easily be explained without concluding that objective truth does not exist. If you give 20 students a poem or a story to read, you will also get many conflicting opinions, but that doesn't mean all of those students are correct. The different denomincations arose partly for the simple fact that people are motivated differently-- just like lawyers are-- and that they come from different historical and religious backgrounds. One of the definitions of objective truth is that it is truth which does not depend on people's subjective opinions. For instance, Noah preached the objective truth that the Flood was coming, but almost no one believed him. However, their lack of belief didn't change the objective truth. It didn't depend on how they felt about it. Almost all the world died because they refused to acknowledge objective truth. When the street light is red, it doesn't matter how you feel about it-- if you go through it, you could be just as dead irrespective of your subjective experience and opinion about the light. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Neil D Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 The problem is that there is no truth that is universally recognized by all humanity. But does that fact mean there is no such thing as objective truth? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Twilight II Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 So Hamilton, you are arguing that man of himself is totally incapable of appropriating "objective truth"? Doesn't that place God in a rather awkward position? How can man respond to the gospel if he is incapable of receiving "truth"? And if man cannot receive objective truth, how can he be judged? Quote
Twilight II Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Just to set my own stall out. Man subject to the flesh and satans leading desires there be no such thing as objective truth, as that involves submission to such. It is not so much that man cannot attain objective truth if the conditions are correct.... ...more a case that he does not "want to". It is not a matter of capability, it is a matter of desire... Quote
Twilight II Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Otherwise, the promise that we will be led into "all truth" is a lie... And I am not about to accuse Jesus of being a liar... Quote
Twilight II Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 There are conditions however to one appropriating "objective truth"... One has to be surrendered and willing to be led.. Quote
olger Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 What did we ever do before the Emerging Church/post modernist ideas come along for us to blame all the ills of the church on?!?! It is true that the Church is under assault from several directions. While the EC is one of those attack fronts, it isn't the only one. It is however the embodiment of two grave errors. It is the hard-line domicile of liberal postmodernism, and a conduit for lethal spiritualism. The former distances people from the Word of God as a reliable source of ultimate authority, and the latter opens people up for enemy attack. Perhaps I could sum it up this way. In the EC movement, it is cool to seek God, but it is not cool to find Him. G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Overaged Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Noah MAY have been able to preach an objective truth over 120 years, but remember, the recieving end of message also garbles up the message as well such that what Noah MAY have preached, was not the message sent...The reciever did not hear the meanings of the word that was sent out... Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Neil D Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 My point, in this discussion, is that there is no such thing as "objective truth"... Origionally, Olger and John317 pointed out that Quote: Ultimate truth is determined by objective evidence, not our subjective experiences. If we let our own personal, subjective experiences determine ultimate truth, it means that we put our own experiences and reasoning in the place of God. Humans become the authority. It's a subtle way of man (666), instead of God (777), becoming the center of universe. In my mind, within the realm of religion, "objective Truth" should be observable, reproductive, and timeless, Contrariety, anytime mankind starts looking into "objectives", he will/has missed an observable fact, or miss applied a principle, or shows bias....While it appears that we humans can come to a "truth", it is always under refinement...and therefore, in the ultimate sense, subjective. It was considered a fact that the earth was flat...but with time, and much evidence, the view was that the world became a gigantic round ball. And while we thought we were the center of the universe, time and new evidence showed us to be a blue marble that was off to one side of the milky way. We told ourselves that these were "objective Truths", but in reality, they were subjective facts. IOWs, in light of new facts, our "objective Truth" about ourselves changed and was not timeless... In the realm of religion, the "objective fact" must tell something about God...and not behavior. Adventists allude to the 10 commandments as a transcript of God's Character...but we used these "behavioral laws" as "objective truths" for our behavior..Our behavior is not an objective Truth because our behavior must be interpreted and reckoned conduct [why do we have a court scene ?] ...this is a totally wrong application of the 10 commandments...The 10 Commandments original use was for prescribing a acceptable way of life for mankind to be used on a personal basis...and to be interpreted as we personally see fit....which is a subjective custom. If we desire to be honest, we will seek other's input into that subjective custom... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Neil D Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach Noah MAY have been able to preach an objective truth over 120 years, but remember, the recieving end of message also garbles up the message as well such that what Noah MAY have preached, was not the message sent...The reciever did not hear the meanings of the word that was sent out... "May have's" are what keeps getting us into trouble with this kind of thing. As you asked John 317 above after his first paragraph; where is your evidence for what Noah did or did not preach? I think that the Bible is pretty clear on this point. Ok, perhaps it is not "pretty clear"... If "objective truth" is timeless, why did it take 120 years to get something pretty obvious out to the people's minds? And why was there only 8 people saved from an "objective Truth"? It must have been pretty subjective for so few to believe that truth.... Only 8 people believed, as Abraham believed God...and that was counted to them as being righteous.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
CoAspen Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Wow, talk about divorce and it quickly gets moved to Religious TTH....maybe the same should happen with this subject! It is about religion........jus' sayn!!!! Quote
Twilight II Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 You did not respond to any of my points Hamilton... Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 27, 2011 Administrators Posted August 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore What did we ever do before the Emerging Church/post modernist ideas come along for us to blame all the ills of the church on?!?! It is true that the Church is under assault from several directions. While the EC is one of those attack fronts, it isn't the only one. It is however the embodiment of two grave errors. It is the hard-line domicile of liberal postmodernism, and a conduit for lethal spiritualism. The former distances people from the Word of God as a reliable source of ultimate authority, and the latter opens people up for enemy attack. Perhaps I could sum it up this way. In the EC movement, it is cool to seek God, but it is not cool to find Him. G The last sentence is among the most ignorant statements about the emerging church movement. The difficulty you are up against is the presumption of having it all figured out squared off against the reality of cluelessness. The liberal/conservative divide is useless in attempting to categorize the emerging church movement. Those are modern constructs and the emerging church is postmodern. It's a whole new ballgame not so easily pigeon-holed by such neat little cliches and traditional platitudes of criticism. Here is an apt blog answer to your blithe snippets of ill-aimed criticism - http://julieclawson.com/2008/09/30/emerging-vs-liberalconservative-theology/ Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
BobRyan Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Perhaps I could sum it up this way. In the EC movement, it is cool to seek God, but it is not cool to find Him. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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