BobRyan Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 I just read Julie Clawson's complete blog (thanks for the lead)and found her attempt to package EC as something new and uncharted rather unconvincing but definitely disturbing. If both liberals and conservatives "pigeonhole" the movement as classic liberalism then it seems her responsibility to prove the contrary rather than simply to cry foul and claim the opposite. It is interesting that while she claims that "we are not home in either camp" she only cites a common philosophical and methodological connection with historic liberalism. Which is "the point". So that begs the question - why in the world would someone provide that particular link as if it were supposed to help make the case that EC Liberalism is not the warmed over liberalism that it is cracked up to be? Seems like you would want a link to an argument in favor of 'EC is not liberalism' where the text did more than just whine that EC is seen by both liberals and conservatives to be liberalism. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 It's the kind of situation that Dr. Kellogg was in: teaching something but denying that he's doing it. Claiming he was in favor of Ellen White but actually seeking to destroy people's confidence in her. Satan attacking Michael the Archangel while denying that he's doing it and even claiming that he loves Him and is trying to help Him. Ellen White wrote that these tactics would be used more and more as we draw closer to the end. Actually it is amazing how often the tactic is used. People will say "well the one thing I am certainly not doing is...." and then name the very thing they are doing. Or they will say "hey I want everyone to know that I am a solid, well grounded..." and then they will identify the very aspect of their life or teaching that is missing or flawed. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Overaged Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 Whoa, there is even a Wiki entry for such folks who call themselves Adventist? ...well that lowers the standard to the very dust. Didnt you know? "Wiki" has now been elevated to "Google" status. They both know everything, and we don't need our own sources of info "straight from the horse's mouth anymore." Only believe. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
doug yowell Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 ...A handsome man, kind to the poor, understanding of those with a grievance. it's very difficult to deal with this kind of subtlty. It's not so difficult and not so subtle once you actually meet me. Quote
Neil D Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Quote: Yes, it is frequently deceptive. Ultimate truth is determined by objective evidence, not our subjective experiences. If we let our own personal, subjective experiences determine ultimate truth, it means that we put our own experiences and reasoning in the place of God. Humans become the authority. It's a subtle way of man (666), instead of God (777), becoming the center of universe. Quote: So who has the objective (with all due respect to Hamilton-Beach)truth here,Tom,Bob,Olger,McLaren, or wiki? I guess it;s time to fess up.....I really don't like the concept of "Ultimate truth"....especally when it's determined by subjective human being, specifically ONE human being...doesn't matter which human being....as every human being has been rather subjective in something and never totally objective.....but I do beleive that objectivity can be achieved by a group of honest humans.... Dang, don't I make a good case???? lol Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators John317 Posted August 29, 2011 Moderators Posted August 29, 2011 The idea of objective truth is that there is something true regardless of what we believe. But you appear to be saying that you believe there is nothing absolutely true regardless of what people believe. The idea of truth as objective is simply that no matter what we believe to be the case, some things will always be true and other things will always be false. Are you saying that the Bible is only true if people believe it to be true? That seems to me to be your position.Does this harmonize with Christ's teachings and the teachings of the Bible? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Stan, the rapid way this thread deteriorated into something as important as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, reveals the importance of the message revealed by your post. "...but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.1 Corinthians 1:24-26 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Stan Posted August 29, 2011 Author Posted August 29, 2011 It would be good to view that again,,,, :) Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 29, 2011 Administrators Posted August 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore Doctrinal issues would be an area that would fit the 4th lane. But my point is that few, if any, Adventist church's or pastors are really seriously traveling that path. Is it your position that SDA progressives like Steve Daily and Fritz Guy "do not exist"?? Are you saying that you would not describe yourself as an SDA "progressive"?? Or is it just that you think they do not fit the description for "Emergent Liberal" given as the fourth lane in that video? in Christ, Bob Being progressive and having non-traditional thoughts or ideas does not put you on the EC highway. It is like say that because you have a fever that you must have potentially fatal encephalitis. That symptom is common to many health issues, most of which are not a big deal and certainly not fatal. Another example, closer to home. We as Adventist believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Catholics also believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Does that mean we are driving in the fast lane of Catholicism? Or how about this? Methodists have a representative form of church governance. Back when the Seventh-day Adventists denomination was being formed they determined that we would also follow the Methodists idea of representative governance. Did that make us Methodists? Cherry picking characteristics common to widely different things and claiming they are the same thing is just plain foolishness. It is the same connect the dot nonsense that conspiracy theories thrive on. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Twilight II Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Seems to me that at the heart of this issue is a barely concealed post-modernism... Which is of the devil himself. Why? An attack on absolute truth is really an attack on absolute authority. The one thing Satan seeks to have removed from over his head, the authority of God, the idea of "absolute authority". And let us remember, that "absolute truth" is God Himself. So when liberalism is studied and defined, always look for these signs, look for the post-modernism tucked away in its coat pocket and give it a wide birth. Liberalism loves to claim that it is the "thinking" viewpoint and if you do not agree to its claims, you are "ignorant". Liberalism and post modernism will usually be found sleeping in the same tent. Liberalism also often seeks to hold itself up as the intelligent open minded type of guy that will promise the girl everything but never get married... And "liberalism" hates to be identified... In all of its "shades of grey"... Quote
Twilight II Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 There is enough liberalism on this forum to fill a gay marriage guest list I am sure... Although I hope to be wrong on that one. How do we soften a direct statement like this? "Just saying" <- Isn't that how it goes? Quote
Twilight II Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 I think it is important for all to be aware of the dangers of liberalism and phariseeism, just so that the liberals do not thinking I am bashing them as a closet hard line conservative... :-) Quote
Moderators lazarus Posted August 29, 2011 Moderators Posted August 29, 2011 I have just had a chance to catch up with this thread. Excellent video. Funny. Quote: Cherry picking characteristics common to widely different things and claiming they are the same thing is just plain foolishness. It is the same connect the dot nonsense that conspiracy theories thrive on. It's usually the path that folks take when they don't have a solid Biblical argument. There has been no Biblical refutation of Lowry's message but simply the erection of the EC straw-man once again. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Moderators lazarus Posted August 29, 2011 Moderators Posted August 29, 2011 I think it is important for all to be aware of the dangers of liberalism and phariseeism, just so that the liberals do not thinking I am bashing them as a closet hard line conservative... :-) Yes, the danger is that both sides will spend the time fighting each other rather than doing the work that the Master has called us to do. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Twilight II Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 The primary truth is "love", when this is in the heart, then Gods work will be done. When we receive this "gift" as a people, then we will finish the work. It is something the Lord keeps calling me to ask Him to give me... Quote
Moderators lazarus Posted August 29, 2011 Moderators Posted August 29, 2011 It seems to me that we have returned to the point in the SDA church where a significant section of our church can no longer embrace the simplicity and beauty of the Gospel message. They cannot bear the the Straight Testimony of the good news about Jesus. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Twilight II Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Someone just quoted this on another forum: Quote: A liberal is simply a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet. Quote
ClubV12 Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 "They cannot bear the the Straight Testimony of the good news about Jesus." The straight testimony is what leads to the shaking. The good news may well be righteouness by faith. Sister White commented that the third angels message is in verity righteouness by faith! We will be facing a situation about to come upon us where we won't have a chance of overcoming without it. I think the discussion will break down into two camps. Those who cry the "law", and they make a good case for that, and those who understand the "law" in the setting of righteouness by faith. Quote
Twilight II Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 "They cannot bear the the Straight Testimony of the good news about Jesus." The straight testimony is what leads to the shaking. The good news may well be righteouness by faith. Sister White commented that the third angels message is in verity righteouness by faith! We will be facing a situation about to come upon us where we won't have a chance of overcoming without it. I think the discussion will break down into two camps. Those who cry the "law", and they make a good case for that, and those who understand the "law" in the setting of righteouness by faith. The good news as I understand it is: "The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart, received by faith in the merits of Christ, transforming the believer into the born again experience". Which is a long way of saying "righteousness" by faith... Quote
parsongarlic Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Thank you Stan, This is such good news. Jesus saves, not a message, not a truth, not a doctrine, not a church, but Jesus saves. Christ in us is the hope of glory... Quote
olger Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Welcome Garlic. Gal 2:20, g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
BobRyan Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Doctrinal issues would be an area that would fit the 4th lane. But my point is that few, if any, Adventist church's or pastors are really seriously traveling that path. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 30, 2011 Administrators Posted August 30, 2011 If you were paying attention you would have understood that "Emergent Liberal" was part of the same EC highway. And since we have more in common with Catholics than we do with Hindus I suppose that would mean we must be Catholic... To define any divergent things by what they have in common shows no discernment. All reptiles and mammals have more in common than differences. How do you tell the difference if all you do is focus on the fact that they are all air breathers with red blood in their veins, skin, internal skeletons, central nervous systems, two eyes, etc.? How can you tell a mammal from a reptile? Or some other life form for that matter? They are distinguished by their differences. That means you must do much more than a superficial comparison. It requires a more thorough examination of all the evidence of many mammals and many reptiles and other life forms. But it is far worse than that. In the context of this topic it takes on a distinctly judgmental hue. Since it is a predetermined conclusion that the label "emerging/emergent church" is very bad, putting that label on anyone or any group, renders a judgment against that person or group as also being very bad. And when it is done without considering all the evidence it reflects a premature judgment and is wrong on several levels. I suspect that you would not be able to tell us off the top of your head the differences between EC and progressive Adventists. More significantly, I doubt you could tell us why I am really neither. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
BobRyan Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 If you were paying attention you would have understood that "Emergent Liberal" was part of the same EC highway. And since we have more in common with Catholics than we do with Hindus I suppose that would mean we must be Catholic... Progressives have more in common with the "emergent liberal" lane four - than they would like to think - apparently. But to be fair - I am not the one that brought the "emergent liberal" concept into this thread. Your own video that you insist that we watch so as to be "informed" at 4:28 min:sec begins the discussion of the "emergent liberal" saying that they "question" key foundational doctrines "that should not be questioned by pastors" according to the speaker. The speakers says they excuse themselves by saying "oh - we are just asking questions" ... such as 1. Did Jesus really die in our place for our sins? 2. Is anybody really going to hell? 3. Is homosexuality sinful? "And on many of these issues - they won't answer the question" says the speaker. They dodge it. And then he goes on to cite an example of one person that questions whether we really need to hold to the virgin birth teaching of the Bible. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
doug yowell Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Your own video that you insist that we watch so as to be "informed" at 4:28 min:sec begins the discussion of the "emergent liberal" saying that they "question" key foundational doctrines "that should not be questioned by pastors" according to the speaker. The speakers says they excuse themselves by saying "oh - we are just asking questions" ... such as 1. Did Jesus really die in our place for our sins? 2. Is anybody really going to hell? 3. Is homosexuality sinful? "And on many of these issues - they won't answer the question" says the speaker. They dodge it. And then he goes on to cite an example of one person that questions whether we really need to hold to the virgin birth teaching of the Bible. All those questions clearly indicate that something is emerging. Wonder what it could be...hmmmmm? Quote
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