Mark Lowry Recovering Fundamentalist - Interesting

[LifeHiscost]

Just guessing, OP means original post.

God blesses!

[Overaged]

Stan; I think I finally figured it. I just listened to the video again; and one of the things Lowry said in the first few sentences was that the only people Jesus ever chewed out were religious folks, and that He mostly hung around prostitutes, vagabonds, thieves, and the like. Some of the religious folk here must not like that...

[doug yowell]

Stan; I think I finally figured it. I just listened to the video again; and one of the things Lowry said in the first few sentences was that the only people Jesus ever chewed out were religious folks, and that He mostly hung around prostitutes, vagabonds, thieves, and the like. Some of the religious folk here must not like that...

I've been giving Lowry's presentation more thought the last couple of days and I think I can understand why some people find it rather suspect. I liked the video and much of what he said, but the OP (Ocean Pacific?)is entitled somewhat misleading. ML does something that is common but in a humorous way which masks what he is actually doing. Alternating half truths with full truths deludes the intent and the fullness of the truth itself.

Lowry makes the quick comment, "Im a recovering fundamentalist...",in passing and couples it with other statements like the one you just posted. What bottom line message does this convey about fundamentalists? That they can't be Christians? What ML fails to consider is that Jesus never chewed out religious people because they were religious, and He didn't restrict His criticisms to only the "religious" (would that mean that the disciples of John the Baptist/Jesus weren't religious?). "Get thee behind me Satan" ain't exactly "What's for dinner, brother?"

For all the other good things said what ML is doing is publically critizing other church members for their failures to live up to the standard that he himself holds. Like the publican who stands in the back of the church and says "I'm thankful that I am not like this Pharisee. I hang out with prostitutes and thieves..."

[Overaged]

Alternating half truths with full truths deludes the intent and the fullness of the truth itself.

Lowry makes the quick comment, "Im a recovering fundamentalist...",in passing and couples it with other statements like the one you just posted. What bottom line message does this convey about fundamentalists? That they can't be Christians?

For all the other good things said what ML is doing is publically critizing other church members for their failures to live up to the standard that he himself holds. Like the publican who stands in the back of the church and says "I'm thankful that I am not like this Pharisee. I hang out with prostitutes and thieves..."

Nothing wrong with "critisizing" Christians; if they need critisizing man! Ha ha! Go ask your wife! She will tell you. I think your opinions as stated here of this video are largely subjective - that is, they are the way you see it; but others see it much differently. So my question remains; what did this man say that was not Biblical?

Quoting a partial sentence he made about being a recovering fundamentalist does not do justice to the bigger picture idea he was trying to convey. It is my understanding that he used the term "fundamentalist;" not to denote any one denomination, but to critisize people who are so dogmatic about being so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good...

[Overaged]

Just guessing, OP means original post.

God blesses!

Thats right.

[John317]

Stan; I think I finally figured it. I just listened to the video again; and one of the things Lowry said in the first few sentences was that the only people Jesus ever chewed out were religious folks, and that He mostly hung around prostitutes, vagabonds, thieves, and the like. Some of the religious folk here must not like that...

But what does he mean by "hanging around" prostitutes and theives"?

Jesus took them as his friends in order to help them stop being prostitutes and thieves. Of course he was not always successful, as in the case of Judas. But the point I am making is that Jesus didn't recommend that His followers hang out with prostitutes and thieves for the sake of having friends and a good time.

Usually hanging around prostitutes and thieves is a good way to become a prostitute or whore-monger or a thief.

Notice that when Jesus was doing it, He spent hours and many times all night in prayer.

One of my problems with the video was just this point. What he said may be OK with people who never hung out with prostitutes and thieves, but the effect of his words is not the same on people who are coming out of those kinds of activities or "lifestyles".

If you used to be a prostitute, for instance, you want to hang out with Christians, not with the prostitutes and the thieves that you used to hang out with. That is where I am coming from. I understand, of course, that Mark didn't mean to have that effect, but I think we need to realize that those kinds of ideas can have exactly that effect on some people. It is telling me that somehow I am not being Christ-like if I stop hanging out with prostitutes and thieves. Which I admit I no longer do. Neither do I go to bars where I used to go.

I would not hang out with them now, but I would certainly give them literature to read and talk to them of Christ. But that is not the same as "hanging out" with them.

He's talking to people who have never lived with prostitutes and thieves or been one of those kinds of people. For him and for the people he's talking to, it seems to be all theory and something to laugh about and be enterained by. That's the impression I take away from his talk.

Yet I know it's not the one he intended. I know he wants people to think of how they need to reach out to people who are poor, rejected, and considered the filth of the earth. As important as that message is, though, it really has nothing to do with being a Fundamentalist. That seems to me to be a wrong and inaccurate association. Non-Fundamentalists don't hang around with prostitutes and theives any more than Fundamentalists do. I think it would have been far better if Mark had said all Christians need to reach out to everyone without regard to their background and beliefs. But then I realize that saying this wouldn't have gotten as many laughs.

[doug yowell]

I think your opinions as stated here of this video are largely subjective - that is, they are the way you see it; but others see it much differently.

Yes, I agree and that was one of the things I was trying to say.As John tries to point out in the above post, the way things are phrased and portrayed are important because they can be taken differently by different people. Your take was just as subjective as mine but I doubt that if ML had been a little more lucid in his use of Scripture that you and I might easily have reached the same conclusion.

[doug yowell]

So my question remains; what did this man say that was not Biblical?

I already posted that. Jesus did not limit (as Lowry states)His chewing out to the "religious".He had words of rebuke for even His closest friends.One can easily get the impression from Lowry's presentation that Fundamentalists are the only people that God doesn't tolerate and has no time for.Perhaps he's forgotten that Jesus also "hung out" with Pharisees and treated them with the same gentleness and respect that He gave to the tax collectors (and me).

[doug yowell]

It is my understanding that he used the term "fundamentalist;" not to denote any one denomination, but to critisize people who are so dogmatic about being so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good...

That could well be but he didn't state it that way.I like your interpretation better than I like his.It addresses behavior rather than theological stereotype.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged] So my question remains; what did this man say that was not Biblical?

/quote] I already posted that. Jesus did not limit (as Lowry states)His chewing out to the "religious".He had words of rebuke for even His closest friends.One can easily get the impression from Lowry's presentation that Fundamentalists are the only people that God doesn't tolerate and has no time for.Perhaps he's forgotten that Jesus also "hung out" with Pharisees and treated them with the same gentleness and respect that He gave to the tax collectors (and me).

Lowry did not say he was limiting this chewing out ONLY to religious folks - but then look a little more seriously at what he meant by religious folks...Lowry was only saying they needed it more. Go directly to (Adventist) Jail Doug. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

It is my understanding that he used the term "fundamentalist;" not to denote any one denomination, but to critisize people who are so dogmatic about being so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good...

That could well be but he didn't state it that way.I like your interpretation better than I like his.It addresses behavior rather than theological stereotype.

I think you & others have been toiling away at putting Lowry into a "theological stereotype;" of your own choosing - perhaps, because "he is not one of us?" I don't think he meant anything the way some are trying to portray

[doug yowell]

But what does he mean by "hanging around" prostitutes and theives"?

Good question. Jesus was a perfectly holy human being whose entire mission in life was to save sinners.Using today's venacular to describe Jesus relationship with those who (whom?) He came to save is a little misleading.

The Bible records Jesus as an itinerant teacher traveling the country, preaching the good news. People came to see Him and He turned away no one.Many followed Him (hung out with Him)because they were drawn to His non-selective,non-condemning message and behavior. This in stark contrast to the attitudes of most of the Jewish society,including his own disciples and the religious leaders.

Not quite the same relationship as today's hanging out meaning.

[doug yowell]

I think you & others have been toiling away at putting Lowry into a "theological stereotype;" of your own choosing - perhaps, because "he is not one of us?"

Are you sure you're not doing the same thing to us? Who is the "one of us"? I never put Lowry into any stereotype other than being unbalanced in his presentation.I liked much of what he said.Did you miss that part of my previous post?

[Stan]

If in your church, you can not smell smoke or alcohol on anyone, and other similar things, your Church is more than likely not doing a good job in reaching the community.

[John317]

Very true, Stan.

Our church services should have a lot of non-SDAs in them of all types, including the homeless, alcoholics, thieves, practicing gays, prostitutes, etc. Our churches are exactly the place for them.

And the only way this is going to happen-- or the way it usually happens-- is if members of the church invite them, perhaps even give them transportation to the place of meeting.

[doug yowell]

If in your church, you can not smell smoke or alcohol on anyone, and other similar things, your Church is more than likely not doing a good job in reaching the community.

Amen!!

[Stan]

AT THE SAME time that we need to make Church a safe place for 'them' to go, we have to make it a safe place for our Children and members to go.

How do you balance that?

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]I think you & others have been toiling away at putting Lowry into a "theological stereotype;" of your own choosing - perhaps, because "he is not one of us?" /quote]Are you sure you're not doing the same thing to us? Who is the "one of us"? I never put Lowry into any stereotype other than being unbalanced in his presentation.I liked much of what he said.Did you miss that part of my previous post?

LOL; your debate skills are improving Doug..."Other than being unbalanced;" in his presentation is an Adventist-speak steryo-type. What do you expect from the man, an "Adventist" presentation? My use of "not one of us" was intended generically to reflect an attitude that spans all denominations. However, you are targetting a specific person, and twisting his message into something "unbalanced," from what seems like an unbalanced Adventist perspective...unless you are not Adventist? What do I know? Maybe you are a Moonie or a Jesuit trying to "influence" us? It doesn't really matter if you "liked much of what he said;" when you twist what he said.

[Overaged]

AT THE SAME time that we need to make Church a safe place for 'them' to go, we have to make it a safe place for our Children and members to go.

How do you balance that?

That can be a little tricky; but where there is a will; there is a way.

[Overaged]

If in your church, you can not smell smoke or alcohol on anyone, and other similar things, your Church is more than likely not doing a good job in reaching the community.

I know that some of our churches are like this - I once decided that I needed to get to prayer meeting on Wed night - infact I felt it was urgent that I go. But the problem was that I had my really grubby drywall taping clothes on...everywhere we kneeled or stood for prayer you could see a trail of drywall crumbs, including where I sat. Eventually, someone noticed and just handed me a small blanket to sit on, while they chuckled...they made me feel quite at home that night...

[doug yowell]

What do I know? Maybe you are a Moonie or a Jesuit trying to "influence" us?

Can't sneak anything by you,OA.

[doug yowell]

What do you expect from the man, an "Adventist" presentation?

I never mentioned Adventist so why do you project that suspicion on me? Just because I'm a Jesuit/Moonie doesn't mean I judge everything from an unbalanced Adventist perspective.Maybe you also missed the fact that I referred to sola scriptura when pointing out ML's misuse of it, (something that no one has yet disproved), as well as the admittedly subjective interpretation that can legitimately spring from his choice of example and wording in an otherwise good presentation.

[doug yowell]

It doesn't really matter if you "liked much of what he said;" when you twist what he said.

More precisely,I didn't twist what he said I noted that he misconveyed the Scriptural account (which is exactly what he said)and I then questioned whether his point about Fundamentalists then could be seen as balanced. Tom once noted that words have meanings and I'm one that attempts to determine what is meant by the words.

[LifeHiscost]

then I realize that saying this wouldn't have gotten as many laughs.

Therefore would have lost perhaps 75% of the audience he was trying to reach. One of the characteristics of the Bill Gaither group is the bouyancy of their programs, which often includes humor, of which Mark Lowry is the salt that brings out the savour of that kind of ministry.

The trouble with sitting in criticism of ML's ministry is that we look for him to be without fault in his presentation, IOW, absolutely without fault. Once I tried that tack, until I found the only one left to hear my voice was me. And then when I came to the place that I found I wasn't absolute, I found I could come to one of two decisions. Either stop preaching entirely, because I had no audience, or take what I knew to be right and reveal by my actions that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost.

I heard a maxim, of which I agree. Jesus doesn't call the qualified to follow Him. He promises to qualify the called.

If one is so certain that Mark's ministry is without redeeming value, then please, reveal the solution that will reach the same audience he is reaching, with just as much success.

Mark lifted up Jesus in his ministry. And at the end of his time in the spotlight, it was clear he adores and worships his Master. If we cannot see that, maybe we ought to lift Mark up to Jesus in prayer and ask Him to give him the dressing down we think he deserves.

"The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out. And when I am lifted up...., I will draw everyone to myself."John 12:31-33 Underlined bold Mine LHC

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. "

Faith and Works, Page 50 EGW

"For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.”"Luke 19:10 NLT

"Jesus says, “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me"

Matthew 16:24

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

If in your church, you can not smell smoke or alcohol on anyone, and other similar things, your Church is more than likely not doing a good job in reaching the community.