WHICH COMMANDMENTS EXISTED BEFORE EARTH'S CREATION?

[miz3]

Which of the Ten Commandments existed as part of God's government before the Creation of the Earth?

Please explain why you think they did or did not exist.

[skyblue888]

They all did but they were adapted to unfallen beings.

sky

[miz3]

They all did but they were adapted to unfallen beings.

sky

When you say "adapted to unfallen beings" it sounds like you are saying they changed somewhat.

How then did they change or how were they "adapted"?

[Gustave]

God simply "IS" and existed eternally prior to the creation of the earth & all in it...

...Because God existed eternally His law existed eternally.

...Simply because God's law is an extention of God Himself.

The ceremonial rubrics of the law were that which was "added"...

...These are the things man is NOT commanded by nature to observe.

...Instead, man must be instructed supernaturally as to their observances.

These "Johnny come lately" laws are NOT part of God's character...

...They were a fabrication of God intended to have authority for specific peopel @ specific times.

[skyblue888]

The law is not merely an extension of God, it is the transcript of His nature.

The law was adapted to unfallen beings as after the fall it was adapted to fallen beings but still the same law.

It is the law of life, the law of self-sacrificing love.

sky

[John317]

These "Johnny come lately" laws are NOT part of God's character...

...They were a fabrication of God intended to have authority for specific peopel @ specific times.

I agree with some of what you said in your post, Gustave, but you are mistaken about the fourth commandment not being a part of God's character and having authority for only a specific people and specific times.

The seventh-day Sabbath is certainly a part of God's character.

Remember that the Sabbath does not belong to mankind. God calls the Sabbath "My Sabbath," "My holy day," and "the holy day of the Lord."

The weekly Sabbath is never called "Your Sabbath," "Your holy day," or "the holy day of mankind."

The purpose of the Sabbath is based on the very character of God. It is based on eternal principles adapted to human beings.

Do you know what that purpose is?

[skyblue888]

I think what he is saying is that the Sabbath did not exist prior to the creation of man. If it did not exist, the weekly cycle as we know it did not either.

right?

sky

[John317]

The ceremonial rubrics of the law were that which was "added"...

...These are the things man is NOT commanded by nature to observe.

...Instead, man must be instructed supernaturally as to their observances.

You probably think the weekly Sabbath is ceremonial, but it is not. It is moral.

It is moral in the same way that God's command to Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge was a moral command.

There is a good reason why God made the tests of obedience based on commands that "must be instructed supernaturally" to mankind.

Otherwise, people could be doing the commands because they agree with them, not because they are obeying God. The real test of obedience to God comes when people obey Him even when they don't agree with the command.

For instance, anyone would probably agree that it's good to rest one day a week. That makes perfectly good sense. But what about God's command to rest and keep holy the seventh of the week? That's when people reason and conclude that it makes no sense to have to keep one particular day. Human reason tells us that it should be OK to rest on any day of the week. Why only the seventh day?

Why indeed? Because of God's commandment. It's a way of showing who acknowledges God as their Lord and Master, and who recognizes their own logic and reason as their lord and master.

[Gustave]

I think what he is saying is that the Sabbath did not exist prior to the creation of man. If it did not exist, the weekly cycle as we know it did not either.

right?

sky

Yes, all of the Jewish Liturgical rubrics are spoken of as expressly belonging to God...

...Therefore, by default using the logic IF the Sabbath is part of God's character.

...The other ceremonials would be also.

Leviticus 23,2

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are MY feasts

These convocations were commanded to be observed by a specific people at specific times...

...Within a specific time-hack - they ( the Liturgical Feasts ) were also classified.

...As a personal possession OF the people that were directed to observe them.

Hosea 2:11

I will also cause all her mirth to cease, HER feast days, HER new moons, and HER sabbaths, and ALL HER solemn feasts.

[John317]

Yes, all of the Jewish Liturgical rubrics are spoken of as expressly belonging to God...

...Therefore, by default using the logic IF the Sabbath is part of God's character.

...The other ceremonials would be also.

The ceremonial law was made to point to Christ's death and resurrection. The 7th day Sabbath was never intended to do this. The Sabbath was made before sin and therefore could not have been a type.

Why do you use the word "rubrics" so often?

The ceremonial sabbath were sometimes called "your sabbaths," but the weekly Sabbath never was. It is always called "My sabbaths." The weekly Sabbath is God's holy day, His holy time.

The seventh day is holy and blessed. We cannot say this about any other day of the week. The pope cannot make a day holy and blessed. Only God Himself can because it is God's presence that makes a day holy, and God is not in the "venerable day of the Sun."

Check out the following text:

Quote:

Ezekiel 8:12-18

Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, 'The Lord does not see us, the Lord has forsaken the land.' " [13] He said also to me, "You will see still greater abominations that they commit."

[14] Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. [15] Then he said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? You will see still greater abominations than these."

[16] And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord. And behold, at the entrance of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east. [17] Then he said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations that they commit here, that they should fill the land with violence and provoke me still further to anger? Behold, they put the branch to their nose. [18] Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them."

[Gustave]

The ceremonial law was made to point to Christ's death and resurrection. The 7th day Sabbath was never intended to do this. The Sabbath was made before sin and therefore could not have been a type.

[John317]

The ceremonial sabbath were sometimes called "your sabbaths," but the weekly Sabbath never was. It is always called "My sabbaths." The weekly Sabbath is God's holy day, His holy time.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Lev 23 specifically states the weekly Sabbath is no different than the other "feasts"...

...Anything related to the Liturgy that requires time to pass to activate IS ceremonial by definition.

It actually states clearly that the weekly Sabbath is distinct from the ceremonial Sabbaths.

Why do you think the weekly Sabbath alone was placed directly in the middle of the the moral law?

Leviticus 23:37-38

"These are the appointed feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim as times of holy convocation, for presenting to the Lord food offerings, burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each on its proper day, [38] besides the Lord's Sabbaths and besides your gifts and besides all your vow offerings and besides all your freewill offerings, which you give to the Lord.

[John317]

Everything within the house of the Lord was said to be "holy"....

...From the cloths the Priests wore to the impliments contained within it.

OK, sure. What's your point?

[Gustave]

It actually states clearly that the weekly Sabbath is distinct from the ceremonial Sabbaths.

[cheddar]

I don't understand your logic on this.

You're basically saying that the Sabbath was only for the Jews.

If we go back to the very beginning before the Law was ever given - the 7th day sabbath was given to Adam and Eve as a day of rest and they weren’t Jewish!

If Adam and Eve never sinned they would have lived forever and been keeping the Sabbath forever.

I'm not sure if you're saying that any day is acceptable or only Sunday but biblically the 7th day was given to mankind not the Jews.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It actually states clearly that the weekly Sabbath is distinct from the ceremonial Sabbaths.

Lev 23 doesn't, that Scripture says it's all the same "law"...

...The same as all other Scripture classifys it.

Lev. 23 lists all of the Lord's festival days with holy meetings. The weekly Sabbath is one of them. However, a comparison of verses 2-3 and 4, and verses 37, 38 shows that the weekly Sabbath was considered distinct from the other sabbaths.

The very word "besides" in verse 38 is another evidence that the Lord made a difference between the weekly Sabbath and the ceremonial sabbaths.

The distinction and differences are shown in many other ways in the Bible.

Here are some of the differences:

1) The weekly Sabbath, like marriage, was a gift of God that was made for mankind (Jesus said) before the Fall.

2) Ceremonial laws were made AFTER the Fall for the purpose of typifying the work of Christ in saving mankind.

3) The weekly Sabbath was not made to typify Christ's work but to be a reminder of the Lord's work of creation.

4) The commandment to remember to keep the Sabbath holy was placed in the very middle of God's Ten Commandment law, which summarize God's moral law.

5) You will notice that there are no ceremonial laws included in the Ten Commandments.

6) When Jesus said that "the Sabbath was made for the benefit of mankind," He was speaking of the weekly Sabbath, not all the ceremonial sabbaths.

7) Even the Catholic Church recognizes that according to the Bible the seventh day of the week-- our Saturday-- is the Sabbath, and this is the day people keep if they go strictly by the Bible. The Catholic Church has published articles stating this. I have Catholic catechisms that show the Catholic Church acknowledges the difference between the weekly Sabbath and the ceremonial sabbaths.

One Catechism, Christ Among Us, says, "The Ten commandments have been a handy summary of morality for Christians as well as Jews through the centuries... They are ways of fulfilling our covenant of love with God...

#3. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy..."

Obviously, it is not referring to the ceremonial sabbaths. It is saying that Catholics should keep the sabbath day, which they interpret to mean going to Mass on Sunday.

I know this because I have dear, close relatives whom I love that go to Mass on Sunday.

Page 44 of this Catholic Catechism refers to the Ten Commandments as a "moral code" and says on page 47 that we should still keep them.

On page 110 of this Catholic Catechism, it says Christians attend church on Sunday, and Catholics go to Mass on Sunday, because of Christ's victory over sin and death on that day. But it does not give any biblical evidence for Sunday keeping.

I know for a fact that Catholics believe they are fulfilling the Sabbath commandment when they go to Mass on Sunday. They don't believe the Sabbath commandment has simply been abolished. If they did, they wouldn't list the Sabbath commandment as something that Catholics should fulfill. Catholics, then, believe they should keep the Ten Commandments, and they don't believe they need to keep the ceremonial sabbaths. It is plainly stated in the Catholic Catechisms.

[John317]

...

That just because God Blessed the Sabbath day does not mean it's everything you are claiming it is...

...Becuause I've already proven God blessed many things and made them "holy" - many things you reject.

...Do you have holy oil or holy water within your church John317?

God blessed and made holy the Sabbath day because he first rested on it. God never did that to any other day of the week. There's only one twenty-four hour period that is holy time, and that is the seventh day of the week, the day before the Sunday, the first day of the week.

The first day of the week is a common working day. There are six days for labor, and obviously the first day is one of those days for labor.

It's true that everything connected to the sanctuary service, including oil and water, were holy, but the entire earthly sanctuary service came to an end when Christ the Lamb of God died, thus fulfilling the types.

AS I said, even the Roman Catholic church does not believe the weekly Sabbath came to an end.They simply believe that the church had the authority to transfer the sanctity of the Sabbath to the Sunday. Hebrews 4, together with Luke 23: 56 and Acts 13: 41, 44, proves that the Sabbath continues under the New Covenant.

What am I claiming the Sabbath day to be?

Only what the Bible says it is:

1) It is the holy day of the Lord.

2) It is holy time.

3) It is a memorial of God's creation of the world.

4) It is a test of obedience to God.

5) It is a sign that God is the One who makes us holy.

6) It is God's Sabbath.

7) It was made to benefit mankind. If you are a human, Jesus said the Sabbath was made to benefit you.

8) It is the seal of God.

[Gustave]

I don't understand your logic on this.

You're basically saying that the Sabbath was only for the Jews.

[skyblue888]

I think we could be making the same mistake that our forefathers made in the past debating over the law. In 1888 Mrs. White wrote: "Let the law take care of itself. We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboah, without dew or rain. Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. May God help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may see." 1888 Materials, Vol.2, 557.

We can debate over the Sabbath or any part of the law be it moral or ceremonial, back and forth, all we want, until we too get as dry as the hills of Gilboah, without dew or rain, but if we would take the above statement at face value, receive it, believe it, and act upon it, trusting wholly in the merits of Christ's sacrifice from the heart, this faith would bring the righteousness of Christ into the life and not only would we all be convinced by the Holy Spirit of the importance of keeping the moral law but we would be enabled to keep it for the righteousness of Christ is made manifest in obedience all the commandments of God. The righteousness of Christ never leads the soul into transgression of the law but in obedience to the law.

In other words, the Lord of Heaven has promised that all who come to Him daily trusting wholly in the merits of the sacrifice that was made for us upon Calvary's cross will be guided into all truth and strengthened to do His will by the Holy Spirit bringing into subjection all their inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil and impressing Christ's character upon them until the full corn shall be in the ear.

sky

[John317]

I think we could be making the same mistake that our forefathers made in the past debating over the law. In 1888 Mrs. White wrote: "Let the law take care of itself. We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboah, without dew or rain. Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. May God help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may see." 1888 Materials, Vol.2, 557.

We have to consider everything Ellen White said, though, sky. She didn't mean that we should not talk to others about the Bible evidence for the law of God and the Sabbath. She says that God raised up the SDA church for the very purpose of bringing people's attention to the downtrodden law of God.

Her words in the quote above are addressed to Seventh-day Adventists, who already understand that God's law and the Sabbath are still in effect.

Something I found out recently in Arthur White's biography of his grandmother is that she supported an SDA leader in Australia holding a public debate over the law of God and the Sabbath.

Much of Great Controversy is devoted to showing the Bible evidence for the law of God.

Ellen White would never have told Sunday keepers that the law will take care of itself and not to think about the Bible evidence regarding the binding authority of God's law.

I do agree with you, though, that what's most important is that people understand the necessity of trusting Christ's merits. Yet if people have the wrong idea of what this means, they can believe that it doesn't matter whether they disobey God's law or the Sabbath commandment.

[John317]

Christianity observes the 8th or 1st day because that's the day Jesus rose on...

Yes, and that's based on tradition, not on anything that Christ said.

If Christ was going to say anything about Sunday being a part of the New Covenant, He would have said it before He died. But He obviously never did. No one can add to, or change, a covenant after the covenant is ratified. Galatians 3: 15 and Heb. 9: 17.

The church-- even the apostles themselves-- had no authority to change the law of God. So even if Paul (or someone looking like him) were to appear on TV and claim that the church changed the day of worship, he would be wrong.

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [9] As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

[doug yowell]

The law is not merely an extension of God, it is the transcript of His nature.

sky

I think that's the same thing,sky, just a different way of stating it.

[doug yowell]

God simply "IS" and existed eternally prior to the creation of the earth & all in it...

...Because God existed eternally His law existed eternally.

...Simply because God's law is an extention of God Himself.

I really like the way you worded this,but do you wholeheartedly believe it,G?

[Gustave]

I really like the way you worded this,but do you wholeheartedly believe it,G?

[John317]

Yes, and that's based on tradition, not on anything that Christ said.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

According to Acts chapter 1 verses 1 - 4 you should re-think your position...

...The commandments of Christ kept coming John.

What position? Do you know what it is?

Can you give us the chapter and verse of where Christ said not to keep the Sabbath but to keep Sunday or some other day of the week?