WHICH COMMANDMENTS EXISTED BEFORE EARTH'S CREATION?

[John317]

If Christ was going to say anything about Sunday being a part of the New Covenant, He would have said it before He died. But He obviously never did. No one can add to, or change, a covenant after the covenant is ratified. Galatians 3: 15 and Heb. 9: 17.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

What did Jesus say about terminating the Passover or circumcision...

...Or paying Temple tax?

The Passover was a ceremonial sabbath. As such, it ended at the cross, because it typified Christ. Jesus was the passover lamb. He fulfilled it. We don't need to offer a passover lamb because Jesus is our Passover.

See Daniel 9: 27; Mark 15: 38.

The Temple tax obviously disappeared with the destruction of the Temple. But the temple tax was never part of the New Covenant, whereas the Sabbath is.

Jesus ended the entire earthly sanctuary service. That's why God allowed it to be destroyed. The only true sanctuary is in heaven.

[miz3]

Did the Sabbath Commandment (the fourth commandment of Exodus chapter twenty) exist before the Creation of the Earth?

If yes, please show from Scripture that this is true.

If yes, how did it operate and function in the pure and holy environment of the pre-earth creation?

[John317]

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [9] As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed

And that Gospel taught by the Apostles was that the Eternal Christ CAME in the Flesh...

...And Died for us and by doing so SAVED US.

...Exactly as was stated the Christ would do in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Of course, Gustave.

Quote:

Man's need for a divine teacher was known in heaven. The pity and sympathy of God were aroused in behalf of human beings, fallen and bound to Satan's chariot car; and when the fullness of time was come, He sent forth His Son. The One appointed in the councils of heaven came to this earth as man's instructor. The rich benevolence of God gave Him to our world, and to meet the necessities of human nature He took humanity upon Himself. To the astonishment of the heavenly host the eternal Word came to this world as a helpless babe. Fully prepared, He left the royal courts and mysteriously allied Himself with fallen human beings. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14. {CT 259.2}

Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God. . . . In speaking of His pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. . . . {FLB 46.3}

His divine life could not be reckoned by human computation. The existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured by figures. {FLB 46.4}

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. {FLB 46.6}

But He humbled Himself, and took mortality upon Him. As a member of the human family, He was mortal; but as a God, He was the fountain of life to the world. He could, in His divine person, ever have withstood the advances of death, and refused to come under its dominion; but He voluntarily laid down His life, that in so doing He might give life and bring immortality to light. He bore the sins of the world, and endured the penalty, which rolled like a mountain upon His divine soul. He yielded up His life a sacrifice, that man should not eternally die. He died, not through being compelled to die, but by His own free will. {FLB 46.7}

Christ came in the form of humanity to live the law of God. He was the word of life. He came to be the gospel of salvation to the world, and to fulfil every specification of the law. Jesus is the word, the guidebook, which must be received and obeyed in every particular. How necessary that this mine of truth be explored, and the precious treasures of truth be discovered and secured as rich jewels. The incarnation of Christ, His divinity, His atonement, His wonderful life in heaven as our advocate, the office of the Holy Spirit,-- all these living, vital themes of Christianity are revealed from Genesis to Revelation. The golden links of truth form a chain of evangelical truth, and the first, and staple, is found in the great teachings of Christ Jesus. Why, then, should not the Scriptures be ennobled and exalted in every school in our land? How little children are educated to study the Bible as the word of God, and feed upon its truths, which are the flesh and blood of the Son of God! "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood [that is, continues to receive the words of Christ, and practice them], hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him." "And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us." {FE 385.3}

[doug yowell]

[doug yowell]

Did the Sabbath Commandment (the fourth commandment of Exodus chapter twenty) exist before the Creation of the Earth?

That would be rather difficult to establish I would think.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I think we could be making the same mistake that our forefathers made in the past debating over the law. In 1888 Mrs. White wrote: "Let the law take care of itself. We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboah, without dew or rain. Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. May God help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may see." 1888 Materials, Vol.2, 557.

We have to consider everything Ellen White said, though, sky. She didn't mean that we should not talk to others about the Bible evidence for the law of God and the Sabbath. She says that God raised up the SDA church for the very purpose of bringing people's attention to the downtrodden law of God.

Her words in the quote above are addressed to Seventh-day Adventists, who already understand that God's law and the Sabbath are still in effect.

Something I found out recently in Arthur White's biography of his grandmother is that she supported an SDA leader in Australia holding a public debate over the law of God and the Sabbath.

Much of Great Controversy is devoted to showing the Bible evidence for the law of God.

Ellen White would never have told Sunday keepers that the law will take care of itself and not to think about the Bible evidence regarding the binding authority of God's law.

I do agree with you, though, that what's most important is that people understand the necessity of trusting Christ's merits. Yet if people have the wrong idea of what this means, they can believe that it doesn't matter whether they disobey God's law or the Sabbath commandment.

John, what I meant was that we should spend much more time talking about the privilege and the necessity of daily appropriating to ourselves the merits of Christ IN ORDER TO bring His righteousness into the life, in order that the requirements of the law may be fulfilled. This is the message that we, as a people, need to receive, believe and act upon, that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use. Otherwise we cannot have a part in giving the loud cry to the multitudes out there.

When we speak of righteousness by faith, we must show the relation between the necessity of faith in the merits of Christ and His righteousness which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. Our people must be taught that only as they daily come to God just as they are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of the world's Redeemer can they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which brings all other blessings in its train, including the righteousness of Christ which accomplishes everything.

Then the people will be captivated by the glory an abiding Christ and the law will be restored to its rightful position and magnified and made honorable in the eyes of all and thus many will be won to God and glory will flow back to the great Giver.

I do not believe that long dry debates to prove that the seventh day is the Sabbath and that it is still binding will melt the hearts of unbelievers, be they adventists or non-adventists. Only the merits and righteousness of Christ will avail. This is the true light. When the Reformers discovered it, it is said that they cast themselves wholly upon the merits of Jesus as their only hope to be accepted of God, forgiven, and transformed. See The Great Controversy,73,74.

sky

[Gustave]

But if the law is an expression of God Himself, and God Himself rested on the 7th day then wouldn't the 4th commandment, being a part of God's law and therefore an extension of Himself, be a reflection of Godly nature (Godlikeness)?

God rested not because He was tired but because there was NOTHING left to do...

...Man was created and placed in this REST ( of God ).

...The weeds and pain didn't even start until AFTER sin.

= Man was thrown OUT of God's rest.

Genesis 3,17

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: CURSED is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it ALL the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles SHALL it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

The ground wasn't "cursed" prior to Adam's sin - it was cursed AFTER Adam's sin...

...Thorns, thistles ( weeds ) pain and suffering.

...To suggest Adam busted sod 6 days a week in Eden and then observed a sabbath is heretical!

...This is a totally alien concept to Scripture.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

But if the law is an expression of God Himself, and God Himself rested on the 7th day then wouldn't the 4th commandment, being a part of God's law and therefore an extension of Himself, be a reflection of Godly nature (Godlikeness)?

God rested not because He was tired but because there was NOTHING left to do...

...Man was created and placed in this REST ( of God ).

...The weeds and pain didn't even start until AFTER sin.

= Man was thrown OUT of God's rest.

Genesis 3,17

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: CURSED is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it ALL the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles SHALL it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

The ground wasn't "cursed" prior to Adam's sin - it was cursed AFTER Adam's sin...

...Thorns, thistles ( weeds ) pain and suffering.

...To suggest Adam busted sod 6 days a week in Eden and then observed a sabbath is heretical!

...This is a totally alien concept to Scripture.

I think that's a good point (the last one not the first one) though it didn't address my question. But your observation brings up another question, since Adam hadn't busted his sod before that first 7th day, what do you think he did while God was resting and calling that day holy (like Himself). What did he do on the second 7th day after that first one? What did he do every 7th day after he actually had to suffer the results of the curse (sweating like a ...)?Also feel free to answer the first ? I asked,if you want.

[doug yowell]

= Man was thrown OUT of God's rest.

Man was thrown out of the garden but that happened only after he sinned. God's rest (to celebrate His sinless perfection) began before man's fall. So wouldn't that mean that man was originally a part of HIS rest? And wouldn't that infer that that was something that God intended to restore someday (restoring His image within mankind)?

[Gustave]

I think that's a good point (the last one not the first one) though it didn't address my question. But your observation brings up another question, since Adam hadn't busted his sod before that first 7th day, what do you think he did while God was resting and calling that day holy (like Himself). What did he do on the second 7th day after that first one?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

But if the law is an expression of God Himself, and God Himself rested on the 7th day then wouldn't the 4th commandment, being a part of God's law and therefore an extension of Himself, be a reflection of Godly nature (Godlikeness)?

God rested not because He was tired but because there was NOTHING left to do...

...Man was created and placed in this REST ( of God ).

...The weeds and pain didn't even start until AFTER sin.

= Man was thrown OUT of God's rest.

Yet according to Exodus 20: 8-11,the Sabbath was to be kept as a reminder of God's creation and of His rest.

Roman Catholic catechisms also teach that the Sabbath commandment should be fulfilled, although they claim that going to Mass on Sunday is a fulfillment of that commandment.

Hebrews 4 shows that God calls believers to enter His rest, and that the weekly Sabbath rest points to our resting from our works as God rested from His.

God rested on the same day that is our seventh day, and He didn't rest on any other day of the week. Therefore it is impossible to substitute one day of rest for another day of rest, because God only blessed and sanctified one day.

How did God rest from His works? By ceasing to create and work on the seventh day of the week. When we do the same, it is a reminder of our resting in God's rest.

Thus the Sabbath is a symbol of righteousness by faith, not only because it reminds us of our dependence on Him as our Creator but it reminds us that He has saved us and will recreate the earth where all flesh will worship God from Sabbath to Sabbath. Is. 66: 22, 23.

Quote:

Hebrews 4:4-9

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." [5]

.... [8] For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. [9] So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

[10]for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

[John317]

...There wasn't even a 1st 7th day - Adam and Eve never made it that far.

...Adam and Eve were created and sinned on the 6th day.

Please quote the verse and give the reference for this.

The truth is that no one knows how long after the Creation the Fall occurred.

But for sure it didn't happen on the sixth day.

How do we know? Because the Bible teaches that God said the sixth day was "very good." He didn't proclaim it "very good" at the beginning of the day but at the end of it.

Furthermore, God wouldn't have rested on the seventh day and proclaimed the Creation "very good" if the Fall had taken place even before the seventh day began.

The seventh-day was a celebration of a perfect world, and obviously there wouldn't have been any reason to celebrate a perfect world if the world was already fallen by the seventh day.

[John317]

To Adam all days were alike - Adam was inobservant of a Sabbath such as Moses observed...

...This is the primary meaning of Rosh Hashanah.

Please explain in what way and why God blessed the seventh-day of the week.

What is the significance of the word "blessed" in the context of Gen. 2: 1-3?

Did God bless it for Himself alone?

And why did Jesus (the Creator of the Sabbath) say that He made the Sabbath for the benefit of man, if He kept the Sabbath a secret from the first man, Adam?

Adam's very name means "man." So when Christ says that He made the Sabbath for man, He is actually saying He made the Sabbath for Adam and all his children.

Are you a child of Adam? Then He made the Sabbath for you!

[John317]

Which of the Ten Commandments existed as part of God's government before the Creation of the Earth?

Please explain why you think they did or did not exist.

The principles of God's Ten Commandment law existed before the creation of the Earth because they are all grounded in God's eternal character.

For instance, prior to the Fall, such a command as "Thou shalt not kill," did not exist in that particular wording. It existed, rather, in the principle that all living beings would show agape/love towards one another.

Similarly, the principle of the Sabbath was not written as, "Remember to keep the seven-day Sabbath holy by doing no work on it," but rather, "Remember that God gives life to you as well as to all other living creatures. Respect and love all life, especially your own."

Notice that the Sabbath commandment connects the first three commandments regarding our duty to God with the last 6 commandments dealing with our love for our fellow-creatures.

In the Sabbath commandment itself is a reminder that our love for God should result in our showing love for the brute creation.

The Sabbath commandment, therefore, binds the first part of the moral code with the last part.

In addition, the Sabbath commandment tells us why God has the right to command humans to obey the law: He is our Creator and Redeemer.

[Gustave]

Yet according to Exodus 20: 8-11,the Sabbath was to be kept as a reminder of God's creation and of His rest.

[John317]

Roman Catholic catechisms also teach that the Sabbath commandment should be fulfilled, although they claim that going to Mass on Sunday is a fulfillment of that commandment.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Of course it should be fulfilled - the setting aside of some time for God is absolutely "moral"...

...This is demonstrated by every society the world has ever recorded as having existed.

But God did not say just be sure to set aside "some time" for God, did He?

God made only one day holy. What day is that?

Did God ever give the impression that He would be pleased if people chose their own day on which to rest?

The purpose of the manna in Exodus 16 was to show distinctly that it matters to God which day we choose to rest on. The same principle is shown in Acts 13: 41, 44.

All you've shown is that it is reasonable to rest on one day a week. So whether people acknowledge God's existence or not, they are likely to rest on one day a week.

But God's command to keep the Sabbath shows that the seventh day is important to God. After all, it is His Sabbath, "the holy day of the Lord."

That is why the keeping of the Sabbath of the Lord is a sign that God is worshipped and obeyed. There's no reason for people to keep the Sabbath if they don't believe in the Creator God, Yahweh.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...The act in and of itself is Moral or Natural - the specific time is ceremonial.

Adam and Eve might well have reasoned the same way, and considered that it didn't matter which tree they refused to eat from, as long as they chose one tree in the Garden from which they wouldn't partake.

But would that have worked?

Of course not.

So what makes you think that God would be pleased for everyone to choose which day to rest on?

If all humanity chose to rest on the Sunday, would that make it blessed and holy?

Who alone can make holy time?

[John317]

God rested on the same day that is our seventh day, and He didn't rest on any other day of the week. Therefore it is impossible to substitute one day of rest for another day of rest, because God only blessed and sanctified one day.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Now we have been through this previously John and you know that's not true...

...It is IMPOSSIBLE that Christ died at the Jewish Passover in 31 A.D.

...And that's according to the Gregorian / Julien calendar.

This doesn't depend on Christ's dying in 31 AD.

I'm simply pointing out the fact that the Sabbath of today was the Sabbath of Jesus Christ.

The weekly cycle was not changed between Christ's day and ours.

Are you sure which day is the first day of the week? If you are, we can be sure which day comes before the first day, and that is the seventh-day Sabbath. There's no doubt about that.

[John317]

(quoting): ...

THE JEWISH SABBATH CHANGED TO SUNDAY BY THE APOSTLES

The Apostles therefore resolved to consecrate the first day of the week to the divine worship, and called it the Lord's day. St. John in the Apocalypse makes mention of the Lord's day;10 and the Apostle commands collections to be made on the first day of the week;11 .... From all this we learn that even then the Lord's day was kept holy in the Church.

The Bible is clear about which day is the Lord's day:

God only calls the Sabbath "my holy day," and "the holy day of the Lord."

On 1 Cor. 16:1-3--

Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. [2] On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.

NOTE: There's no mention in verse 2 of a collection made during a worship service or at church. "Each of you" were to "lay aside and store up at home" what they believed they could afford on the basis of their calculations.

Check out closely the Greek-English intelinears, such as the NRSV.

William F. Beck's translation has "each of you should at home lay aside some money he makes and save it so that none will have to be collected when I come."

If the early church was keeping Sunday holy, why does Acts. 13: 41, 44 say what it does? Antioch was a Gentile city, yet it says the people waited a whole week-- instead of coming together the next day, Sunday-- to hear the word of the Lord preached.

Notice also that in the NT, the first day of the week is treated as a common working day, whereas the Sabbath is treated as still the holy day of the Lord, which indeed it is.

Finally, notice that the Jews did not accuse Paul of Sabbath breaking, which they certainly would have done if Paul was breaking the Sabbath or teaching people to disobey the Sabbath. Paul himself said over and over in the book of Acts that he never taught anything that was opposed to the books of Moses. He could not have said this if he was teaching people that the Sabbath was either abolished or changed.

[Gustave]

The Bible is clear about which day is the Lord's day:

God only calls the Sabbath "my holy day," and "the holy day of the Lord."

[12tribes]

Psalms 119:142

(142) Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

All the commandments existed before creation and since the law is a transcript of the character of God we should be asking, what does this commandment teach me about the character of God?

[Gerr]

Which of the Ten Commandments existed as part of God's government before the Creation of the Earth?

Please explain why you think they did or did not exist.

The principles of the 10c, i.e. you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart.... and your neighbor as yourself.

Angels have no need for the 5th or the 7th commandments, except only as the 5th applies to God as our/their Father. Probably didn't have the 4th either.

[doug yowell]

There wasn't a second "7th day" ( Rest of God ) for our 1st Parents...

...There wasn't even a 1st 7th day - Adam and Eve never made it that far.

...Adam and Eve were created and sinned on the 6th day.

Even IF that were true, you've already stated that A&E were kicked out of God's rest and now you say that they never made it that far. One cannot be kicked out of something if they never were in something to begin with. Which story do you want to go with? I refuse to accept both and so should you.

[skyblue888]

Good point.

And who says that they sinned on the sixth day?

[doug yowell]

The principles of the 10c, i.e. you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart.... and your neighbor as yourself.

Angels have no need for the 5th or the 7th commandments, except only as the 5th applies to God as our/their Father. Probably didn't have the 4th either.

Couldn't the PRINCIPLES of the 5th and 7th have existed before there was a human family, particularly with the existence of authority, order, and social unity in the heavenly family? Still can't see how the 4th could preexist the event it was said to commemorate.

[doug yowell]

And who says that they sinned on the sixth day?

Yeah, that's what I was wondering.I'll bet you can't even find that in the Catechism.