Igakusei Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 Some such evidence would include history, archeology, fulfilled prophecies, mathematics, various sciences, textual studies, and the evidence of personal experience, all of which show that the Bible is reliable. I love it when you guys do this. History confirms the bible, except for that pseudo-history which doesn't. Archaeology confirms the bible, except for the archaeology that contradicts it. fulfilled prophecies confirm the bible, except for the ones that other people interpret differently. Mathematics confirm the bible, except for the math in the bible that is blatantly wrong. Pi is not three. Sciences confirm the bible, except for the pseudo-sciences that don't. How do I know what the real history/prophecies/sciences/math is and what the pseudo history/prophecies/sciences/maths are? Well, the ones that agree with the bible of course! So, so very circular. Quote I believe in life before death
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Posted September 28, 2011 Quote: The Bible is my objective truth.It hasn't always been but it certainly is now. I don't expect it to be objective truth for everyone, but it should be the objective truth for those who claim to believe it to be the inspired Word of God. I think you have a different understanding of "objective". Yes, perhaps so. I am using it in contrast to "subjective." For instance, I don't go by my feelings or by my personal opinion. I go by the standard of the Word of God. You appear to be looking at the concept of "objective" from the viewpoint of philosophy. I'm not discussing this as if I were writing a paper for a philosophy class. Here's the definition of "objective" that I'm thinking of: Quote: The idea of truth as objective is simply that no matter what we believe to be the case, some things will always be true and other things will always be false. Our beliefs, whatever they are, have no bearing on the facts of the world around us. That which is true is always true — even if we stop believing it and even if we stop existing at all. God exists and Christ died for our sins no matter what anyone believes about it. The fact that someone questions it or doubts it or rejects doesn't change the truth concerning what the Bible teaches. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Posted September 28, 2011 Even though we believe the Bible to be objective truth, we still need faith because we haven't yet received the promises. Originally Posted By: fccool The key word is BELIEVE, so you go a bit redundant there when you mention that those who believe still need faith. Faith is a form of belief. In term of definition, the only thing that separates the two concept is "understanding" and "trust" of person who believes. Yes, I understand the Greek origins of the word and the various ways it is translated. I'm saying that even for people who accept the Bible as objective truth-- in terms of being the stardard of doctrinal truth-- there is still the necessity of trust/faith in God because we haven't yet received the promises. That is, we still have not yet seen the fulfillment of God's promises regarding the new earth, etc. Until we do actually receive the promises, there will always be a necessity for faith. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Posted September 28, 2011 What I mean by objective truth is that the Bible is our guide for knowing the will of God and the truth about God. We know that anything that does not measure up to the Bible is false. Originally Posted By: fccool Know is not an appropriate term there. You believe that everything that not measure up to the Bible is false, and you believe it based on the claims of the Bible itself. Yes, I do know that anything that does not measure up to the Bible is false. You may not know it but Jesus Christ did. The Devil inspires people to doubt the Bible as God's word. He also inspires SDAs to question and doubt the ministry and work of Ellen G. White. All who are not under the control of the Holy Spirit are under the control of Satan, whether they realize it or not. Do you believe this, fccool? Originally Posted By: fccool That's called a circular reasoning. There's plenty of reasons to distrust and doubt circular reasoning, unless it's proven by means of other evidence. There's plenty of evidence to know that the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are true, if somone wants to know the truth. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Posted September 28, 2011 A little Lyotard and postmodernism on the existence and action of 'grand narratives' or 'totalising frameworks' is very helpful in understanding what is going on here (both here in this thread and here on this site)... Quote Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Posted September 28, 2011 Do you consider youself a postmodern in your thinking, Bravus? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Posted September 28, 2011 ...Mathematics confirm the bible, except for the math in the bible that is blatantly wrong. Pi is not three. Sciences confirm the bible, except for the pseudo-sciences that don't. How do I know what the real history/prophecies/sciences/math is and what the pseudo history/prophecies/sciences/maths are? Well, the ones that agree with the bible of course! So, so very circular. Check this out: Quote: God is A MathematicianBy Keith Newman. The authenticity of the Holy Bible has been attacked at regular intervals by atheists and theologians alike but none have explained away the mathematical seal beneath its surface. It would seem the divine hand has moved to prevent counterfeiting in the pages of the Bible in a similar manner to the line that runs through paper money. Bible numerics appears to be God's watermark of authenticity. Vital research on this numeric seal was completed by a native of the world's most reknowned atheistic nation, Russia. Ivan Panin was born in Russia on December 12, 1855. As a young man he was an active nihilist and participated in plots against the Czar and his government. He was a mathematical genius who died a Harvard scholar and a citizen of the United States in 1942. Panin was exiled from Russia. And after spending a number of years studying in Germany, he went to the United States where he became an outstanding lecturer on literary criticism. Panin was known as a firm agnostic - so well known that when he discarded his agnosticism and accepted the Christian faith, the newspapers carried headlines telling of his conversion. It was in 1890 that Panin made the discovery of the mathematical structure underlining the vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. He was casually reading the first verse of the gospel of John in the Greek: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God and the Word was God...". Panin was curious as to why the Greek word for "the"' preceded the word "God"' in one case and not the other. In examining the text he became aware of a number relationship. This was the first of the discoveries that led to his conversion and uncovered the extensive numeric code. Panin found his proof in the oldest and most accurate manuscripts - the Received Hebrew Text and the Westcott and Hort Text. In the original languages of the Bible, mostly Hebrew and Greek, there are no separate symbols for numbers, letters of the alphabet are also used to indicate numbers. The numeric value of a word is the sum total of all its letters. It was curiosity that first caused Panin to begin toying with the numbers behind the texts. Sequences and patterns began to emerge. These created such a stirring in the heart of the Russian that he dedicated 50 years of his life to painstakingly comb the pages of the Bible. This complex system of numbering visibly and invisibly saturates every book of the scriptures emphasizing certain passages and illustrating deeper or further meaning in types and shadows. The 66 books of the Bible 39 in the Old and 27 in the New were written by 33 different people. Those authors were scattered throughout various countries of the world and from widely different backgrounds. Many of them had little or no schooling. The whole Bible was written over a period of 1500 years with a 400 year silence apart from the Apocrypha between the two testaments. Despite the handicaps the biblical books are found to be a harmonious record, each in accord with the other. Panin says the laws of probability are exceeded into the billions when we try and rationalize the authorship of the Bible as the work of man. He once said: "If human logic is worth anything at all we are simply driven to the conclusion that if my facts I have presented are true, man could never have done this. "We must assume that a Power higher than man guided the writers in such a way, whether they knew it or not, they did it and the Great God inspired them to do it''. The Bible itself states clearly that it is the literal God-breathed'' living word of the Creator. The words "Thus saith the Lord"' and "God said"' occur more than 2500 times throughout scripture. In 2 Timothy 3:16 it states "All scripture is given by inspiration of God". Then in 2 Peter 9:20-21 it plainly states: "No prophecy of the scriptures is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost". Let's take the number seven as an illustration of the way the patterns work. Seven is the most prolific of the mathematical series which binds scripture together. The very first verse of the Bible "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen 1:1), contains over 30 different combinations of seven. This verse has seven Hebrew words having a total of 28 letters 4 x 7. The numeric value of the three nouns "God", "heaven" and "earth" totals 777. Any number in triplicate expresses complete, ultimate or total meaning. Also tightly sealed up with sevens are the genealogy of Jesus, the account of the virgin birth and the resurrection. Seven occurs as a number 187 times in the Bible (41 x 7), the phrase "seven-fold" occurs seven times and "seventy" occurs 56 times (7 x 8). In the Book of Revelation seven positively shines out: there are seven golden candlesticks, seven letters to seven churches, a book sealed with seven seals, seven angels standing before the Lord with seven trumpets, seven thunders and seven last plagues. In fact there are over 50 occurrences of the number seven in Revelation alone. There are 21 Old Testament writers whose names appear in the Bible (3 x 7). The numeric value of their names is divisible by seven. Of these 21, seven are named in the New Testament: Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Hosea and Joel. The numeric values of these names is 1554 (222 x 7). David's name is found 1134 times (162 x 7). God's seal also pervades creation as though it were woven into the very fabric of nature. The Bible has declared man's years to be three score and ten (70). The development of the human embryo is in exact periods of sevens or 28 days (4 x 7). Medical science tells us the human body is renewed cell for cell every seven years. We're told the pulse beats slower every seven days as if it were in accord with the seventh day of rest proclaimed in the Genesis creation week. And God formed man of the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7); science confirms the human body is made of the same 14 elements (2 x 7) found in your average handful of dust. The light of the sun is made up of seven distinct colours as shown in the rainbow. In music there are seven distinct notes which climax in a chord or octave at the beginning of a new seven. In almost all animals the incubation or pregnancy period is divisible by seven. Seven is often referred to as "God's seal" or the number of spiritual perfection. Eight is the number of new life or "resurrection". It is the personal number of Jesus. When we add together the letter values of the name Jesus in the Greek we get 888. Jesus was called The Christ, the numeric value of this title is 1480 (185 x 8). He was Savior which has the value 1408 (2 x 8 x 88). Jesus is also Lord which again is a multiple of eight being 800 (100 x 8). Messiah has the numeric value 656 (82 x8). Jesus also called himself the Son of man. The term occurs 88 times and is valued at 2960 (370 x 8). Jesus said "I am the truth": the numeric value of "the truth" is 64 (8 x 8). The last book in the Bible is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which has exactly 888 Greek words. Eight persons were saved in the Ark at the great Noahic flood. God made a covenant with Abraham that every male Jewish child was to be circumcised on the eighth day of his life. There are eight individual cases of resurrection spoken of in the Bible apart from Jesus. Three occur in the Old Testament, three in the gospels and two in Acts. It was on the eighth day or the first day of the new week that Jesus rose from the dead. The Holy Spirit also came down from heaven on the eighth day. Nine is finality or completion. The first example of its use is that infinitely sealed first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God'' which in Hebrew is: Brayshith Elohim which has the numeric value of 999. The very next statement "created the heaven" is also sealed with 999. The number nine is endowed with a peculiar quality, it is finality in itself. Not only is it the final single number, but if you multiply it by any other number, the addition of the resulting figures will always revert back to nine (2 x 9 = 18 / 1 + 8 = 9 etc). There are nine basic gifts available to the Christian believer through the power of God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:8-10). There are nine basic fruits which should be evident in the life of the believer (Gal 5:22-23). The words "my wrath" have the numeric value 999. The word Amen or verily is valued at 99 and occurs 99 times. The work on the cross was completed at the ninth hour when Jesus said "It is finished". The shedding of his blood was final. It saw an end to the old system of animal sacrifice to atone for sin. The word "blood" in this sense occurs 99 times. Great superstition has always surrounded the number 13 as being unlucky or dark. Perhaps there is good reason. One of the most convincing proofs of the origins of this number can be found by unravelling all the names by which Satan is known. Drakon or dragon has a value of 975 (13 x 75) and it occurs 13 times. Peirazon or tempter has a value of 1053 (13 x 81). Belial which is personification of evil has a value of 78 (13 x 6). Anthropoktonos or "murderer" has a value of 1820 (13 x 40). Ophis or "serpent" is 780 (13 x 60). The phrase used by the Holy Spirit Ho kaloumenos diablos kai ho Satanas or "called the Devil and Satan" is valued 2197 (13 x 13 x 13). This article is in truth an oversimplification of the work of Panin and others who followed in his footsteps. Panin's work initially involved some 40,000 pages of material on which he had written millions of small neat calculations. It involved volumes. He often laboured up to 18 hours a day exploring the vast numeric structure. By and large it was a thankless task. Panin said "When I first made the discovery I was of course, taken off my feet - I was in the same condition as our friend Archimedes who when he solved a great mathematical problem while in the bath, rushed in to the street naked, crying 'I have found it'. I thought people would be delighted to embrace the new discovery, but I found human nature is always the same. So I quietly withdrew and did my work all by myself". Although it would appear that his work has been largely lost from popular reading today Panin did accomplish several outstanding works. He published Structure in the Bible the Numeric Greek New Testament and the Numeric English New Testament. The works of Ivan Panin have been put before the experts many times. Panin once challenged nine noted rationalists and Bible critics through the medium of the New York Sun newspaper November 9, 1899. He dared them to publicly refute or give explanation for a few of his presented facts. Four made lame excuses. The rest were silent. Panin issued a challenge throughout leading newspapers of the world asking for a natural explanation or rebuttal of the facts. Not a single person accepted. He died at Aldershot, Ontario Canada on October 30th, 1942, aged 87. panin2.htm Source: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/panin2.htm Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Posted September 28, 2011 A little Lyotard and postmodernism on the existence and action of 'grand narratives' or 'totalising frameworks' is very helpful... Here's a question I think you should be asking yourself: Do writers such as Lyotard help you to have greater faith in God and in the Bible as His Word? If they don't-- if they cause you to doubt God and the Bible-- I wouldn't read them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
doug yowell Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 How do you balance "questioning everything" with : "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." By not mistakenly assuming immediately that questioning and doubting are the same thing. I doubt whether the title of the book is consistent with the title of the thread if your response here is intended to clarify the questioning of the former. Quote
Igakusei Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 Oh my god, man. I have no idea where to even begin. Perhaps you should try to figure out how to differentiate numerology from mathematics. Quote I believe in life before death
doug yowell Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 Oh my god, man. See Ig, that wasn't so bad.Starting to come around to the light didn't hurt you at all. Quote
doug yowell Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 Personally, I think it's a good idea to question everything,just as long as you end up with some really good answers. But I haven't read the book yet. Maybe I'm wrong. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Doubt isn't useful if you place restrictions on what you are allowed to doubt. John seems to think it's only okay as long as you come out of it with the same conclusions he has. No, this is not true. However, if your posts are any indicatation of the way it is, I would say you tend not to like it when Christians conclude differently than you. I could be wrong, though. Just going by what I've read. I do believe I'm right about God's existing and the Bible's being true, but I am fine with people disagreeing me. In fact, I enjoy being around all sorts of people, including those who think entirely differently than I do. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Personally, I think it's a good idea to question everything,just as long as you end up with some really good answers. But I haven't read the book yet. Maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, true. Question everything at some time in one's life but not question everything all through one's life. By the time a person is 50, they shouldn't be questioning the same things that they questioned when they were 16, for instance. And at 60, they shouldn't be asking the same questions, without discovering any answers, as they did at the age of 25. We have some people who are still asking basic questions and claim they don't have any good answers yet-- and this after years and years of study. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 Quote: Yes, perhaps so. I am using it in contrast to "subjective." For instance, I don't go by my feelings or by my personal opinion. I go by the standard of the Word of God. What standards... that anyone believes otherwise is under control of Satan? Sounds more like a cult mentality rather than true objectivity. Quote: You appear to be looking at the concept of "objective" from the viewpoint of philosophy. I'm not discussing this as if I were writing a paper for a philosophy class. Philosophy is a study of fundamental problems of existence. Biblical narrative, theology, and morality lies in the realm of philosophy. Quote: There's plenty of evidence to know that the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are true, if somone wants to know the truth. Are we talking about concrete evidence... such as "continent of Australia can be touched, seen and visited", or we talking about disputable evidence that's derived from a certain view and belief? Quote: Yes, I do know that anything that does not measure up to the Bible is false. You may not know it but Jesus Christ did. The question is not whether you know. There are plenty of people who "know" that aliens exist, along with Men in Black, and UFOs. The question is how they came about that "knowledge". Knowledge is different from belief that it reflects true reality. If you can't provide a sufficient proof of such reality, then such reality exists in the realm of your belief. Quote: The Devil inspires people to doubt the Bible as God's word. He also inspires SDAs to question and doubt the ministry and work of Ellen G. White. How does he inspire people to do so if no-one really seen the Devil? Can you explain the mechanics of such "inspiration"? Likewise, can you give me a concrete proof outside of Biblical narrative that such being exists? Quote: All who are not under the control of the Holy Spirit are under the control of Satan, whether they realize it or not. What does that mean in context of free will, free thought, and independent decision making based on concrete evidence. Quote: Do you believe this, fccool? What does it matter if I believe it or not? See, that's why I have this entire problem with your concept and ideas is that one has to believe what you do to "change for Good" and be on God's side. If I walked and knocked on your door and told you that a billionaire will give you 20 million dollars, but first you have to trust me as his messenger and sell your house, give me the cash, and obtains from eating hot dogs for a month... would you believe me? Would you be right to ask for concrete evidence before making such decision? Quote
Igakusei Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 Is it okay to still doubt the existence of Zeus after decades of thought? Quote I believe in life before death
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Quote: Yes, perhaps so. I am using it in contrast to "subjective." For instance, I don't go by my feelings or by my personal opinion. I go by the standard of the Word of God. What standards... that anyone believes otherwise is under control of Satan? No. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 In fact, let me give you an example of how you use the evidence to prove that Bible is correct. I receive a letter from Nigerian lawyer that tells me that he is about to die and that he would like me to inherit $20,000,000 that he owns. He will pay me in 4 installments of $5,000,000. I verify the "evidence" for such claim in the following way: 1) The country of Nigeria exists, therefore his claims must be true 2) The lawyers exist, therefore his claims must be true 3) His math adds up as 4 x 5,000,000 = 20,000,000 therefore it's a great evidence from mathematics that he will pay up. 4) I've heard about dying people leaving a lot of money behind, then he must be telling the truth None of this is the evidence. And in fact, I am confident that you would find such idea suspicious. Yet, Christians tend to do the same with the Biblical support. 1) The Bible mentions certain historical people with certain dates, then it must be true 2) The math of the prophecies adds up, then it must be true 3) The disciples were willing to die for their beliefs, means that Bible is true That's not objective evidence that would qualify to support certain premise. Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: Bravus A little Lyotard and postmodernism on the existence and action of 'grand narratives' or 'totalising frameworks' is very helpful... Here's a question I think you should be asking yourself: Do writers such as Lyotard help you to have greater faith in God and in the Bible as His Word? If they don't-- if they cause you to doubt God and the Bible-- I wouldn't read them. Yep, that's about as perfect an example of a grand narrative in action as I could ask for. Quote Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Is it okay to still doubt the existence of Zeus after decades of thought? Do you view belief in Zeus as similar to-- or even perhaps the same as-- belief in the God of the Bible? I used to have a friend who thought belief in God was no different than belief in Santa Claus or the tooth-fairy. I wonder if you think the same way. Sounds very much like it. Maybe I should let Tom Wetmore, Bravus or fccool answer your question. I'm positive they will not see belief in one as the same as belief in the other. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Do you consider yourself postmodern in your world-view? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Do you consider yourself postmodern in your world-view? Yes. Do you understand what that means? Quote Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Do you believe this, fccool? Originally Posted By: fccool What does it matter if I believe it or not? It matters because I would like to know what you believe. Other than that, it doesn't matter at all. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted September 29, 2011 Author Administrators Posted September 29, 2011 Is it inappropriate to respond to a post just as it reads? No way I can read every book/article that someone brings up in the forum. So, since you've read it, does he say anything different than your teaser post? Why would anyone question something if its veracity is accepted? Sorry, Gerry. My bad. I just assumed that maybe somebody would at least start reading before they launched an attack, started disagreeing or arguing about it. Silly me! You would think I was a newbie around here... Seriously, the objective of posting a link is for people to go there, read and then come back here to discuss it. Taking the time to be informed of the topic does result in more meaningful discussion about it, don't you think? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2011 Moderators Posted September 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Do you consider yourself postmodern in your world-view? Yes. Does it strengthen your belief in God, in the Scriptures and in His love for you personally? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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