Got Doubts?

[phkrause]

Well if one turns down life, they die.

However, I seem to be quite alive, therefore I have turned down nothing - no matter what source it came from.

[fccool]

John, sorry, did not mean to ignore these questions. I've started them on another computer and they's been sitting here till not.

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I never heard of Tsoi. Was this in the 1970s?

Late 70s and 80s

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Did his Rock band sound anything like the Beatles or some other British or American band?

It's hard to tell. There did not really have a lot of legal influence to get after those days. Rock music was associated with rebellion and debauchery, so it was banned from all of the radio-stations in USSR. So, they had their unique style that they developed.

Here's a pretty popular song of theirs to give you an idea:

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How old were you in those days?

I was a teenager when Soviet Union broken apart. But much of my experience comes from Middle Eastern parts of Soviet Union.

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I'm interested in Soviet society. Were all jobs at that time assigned by the state? What kind of choices did you have? Could anyone attend university while working?

Nop. Still had to have an education and qualification with a resume. You had no choice not to work. Not working (or "Tuneadstvo") was considered a misdemeanor, since everyone were expected to contribute in some capacity, except the disabled and retired, of course.

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You don't appear to see them as being who they were and being in the Bible because of God's salvific activity.

Please give some brief examples of how you apply this principle to Christ's death and resurrection or to Moses' writing of the book of Genesis.

Frankly, I've already forgotten what the point was. I think it was about the Biblical narrative characters.

If you've lived in middle-eastern culture, you would understand a couple of things about oral tradition. The tradition was largely passed down by means of amazing and interesting stories that would carry certain cultural values and ideals.

For example, I grew up with myths that were largely formed around this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin

We can certainly speculate that there was indeed a guy called Hoja Nasreddin in 13th century, but it becomes obvious that he did not write those stories about himself. These largely developed as traditions based on certain cultural ideals, and Hoja became the literary vehicle to carry these ideals through anecdotes that idealize certain cultural concepts and ideals of wisdom.

These were systematized into collection of stories with legendary and idealized hero.

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Do you believe Elijah is alive and in heaven?

Well, then you'll have to ignore the immediate context of passage which you go by on this forum.

[John317]

Did his Rock band sound anything like the Beatles or some other British or American band?

Originally Posted By: fccool

It's hard to tell. There did not really have a lot of legal influence to get after those days. Rock music was associated with rebellion and debauchery, so it was banned from all of the radio-stations in USSR. So, they had their unique style that they developed.

Here's a pretty popular song of theirs to give you an idea:

OK, thanks for responding.

That's really the first rock band from the USSR that I've ever heard. It isn't anything like British or American rock. Parts of it made me think of some stuff by Eric Burdon and the Animals.

Are the lyrics of that song about rebellion and debauchery? Their music-- beat and rhythm-- is pretty tame by American standards.

Here are several by the Animals that were popular here and in England during the late 60s and early 70s:

We gotta get out of this place:

http://www.last.fm/music/The+Animals/+videos/+1-jxNEiZhpinY

It's My Life:

http://www.last.fm/music/The+Animals/+videos/+1-HNzmrEgz_GI

Little Red Riding Hood:

http://www.last.fm/music/The+Animals/+videos/+1-mFj-oQQE5W4

[fccool]

Are the lyrics of that song about rebellion and debauchery? Their music-- beat and rhythm-- is pretty tame by American standards.

Yes, but this is somewhat of a tame song. There are songs that incite changes. This one is a bit more thought through.

I sit down and look out another's window at another strange sky

And I don't see even one familiar star,

I've travelled along all roads, I've been here and I've been there,

And when I turned back, my own footprints were gone...

But if I've got a pack of cigarettes in my pocket,

Then today won't be so bad after all,

And a ticket for the plane with silver wings,

Which flies away, leaving only a shadow on the ground...

And no one wants to be guilty for a crime they didn't commit,

And no one wants to do someone else's dirty work,

And without music, even company in distress won't make trouble less,

And without music, I don't want to fall...

But if I've got a pack of cigarettes in my pocket,

Then today won't be so bad after all,

And a ticket for the plane with silver wings,

Which flies away, leaving only a shadow on the ground...

[Gerr]

Thats kinda my point. He gave us a brain and then a message that makes almost no sense. There in lies the problem.

I am not saying he does NOT exist. I am saying that there is a serious amount of missing information if he does.

21 For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom. Instead, by means of the so-called “foolish” message we preach, God decided to save those who believe. 22Jews want miracles for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom. 23As for us, we proclaim the crucified Christ, a message that is offensive to the Jews and nonsense to the Gentiles; 24but for those whom God has called, both Jews and Gentiles, this message is Christ, who is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For what seems to be God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and what seems to be God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.

American Bible Society. (1992). The Holy Bible : The Good news Translation (2nd ed.) (1 Co 1:21–25). New York: American Bible Society.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Thats kinda my point. He gave us a brain and then a message that makes almost no sense. There in lies the problem.

I am not saying he does NOT exist. I am saying that there is a serious amount of missing information if he does.

21 For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom. Instead, by means of the so-called “foolish” message we preach, God decided to save those who believe. 22Jews want miracles for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom. 23As for us, we proclaim the crucified Christ, a message that is offensive to the Jews and nonsense to the Gentiles; 24but for those whom God has called, both Jews and Gentiles, this message is Christ, who is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For what seems to be God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and what seems to be God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.

American Bible Society. (1992). The Holy Bible : The Good news Translation (2nd ed.) (1 Co 1:21–25). New York: American Bible Society.

That's definitely seen here. Great post Gerry.

[LifeHiscost]

This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.

As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth. He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter.

Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal comfort and a wonderful hope, comfort you and strengthen you in every good thing you do and say.

2 Thess 2:9-17 NLT Bold underlined mine LHC

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Doubting was the way of the Greek and it was foolishness since one can never be sure of something unless he has raised all possible doubts and how can one be sure that he has raised all possible doubts? Never.

So you see the foolishness of doubting the Word of God? "Thy word is truth." John 17:17. All that the truth expect from us is that we believe it even if we don't understand it. God has promised that if we believe what He says because He says it, He will give understanding. That is wisdom and the other is foolishness.

sky

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

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I've never claimed that I did not fully understand everything that Bible says. It's precisely because I understand what it says why those doubts are present. I actually have theological credential as I minored in Bible. In college I've memorized, dissected things to the point of breaking things down word for word and making 100 of required observations on 3-4 sentences in the Bible. And that went on and on.

"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"Micah 6:8 NKJV

Seems simple enough.

God blesses!

[CoAspen]

Wow! Is this ever a challenging book and a must read. Just started, only into ch2.

Needless to say, the high majority of comments on this thread are missing the point of questioning this book is about. Of course one would first have to not presume what the title means. I will give a hint....its about questioning ourselves and our view of God to improve our 'religion'.

Read it!!!!

Thanks Tom for the recommend!!

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, this is just one more prolonged example of a grand adventure in missing the point ...

Or is an adventure in avoiding the point?

Introspection... Hmmm.... I wonder why that door keeps getting slammed shut?

[Neil D]

Introspection... Hmmm.... I wonder why that door keeps getting slammed shut?

Even on the internet, no one wants to be that vulnerable...

[Restin]

Studying into DNA removed my doubts.

[CoAspen]

Has anyone read the book yet? Surely after all the 'dissing' someone has read it?

About a third of the way through it, excellent book!

[Tom Wetmore]

It's a way of responding to "the Truth unfiltered by rational argument".

[CoAspen]

I don't do underlining when I read a book.....but on this one, I can't stop! One of the best books I have read in a long time. This is a book I would highly recommend for study groups.

[cardw]

It's a way of responding to "the Truth unfiltered by rational argument".

I understand this method because I use it all the time. There is no rational argument that is going to tell me what I love. But just because I love something doesn't give me the right to write down a set of rules that everyone else should follow to gain God's favor.

There is a huge jump between this experience and saying that the bible contains truth. I suspect that you could use any narrative, including movies, novels, and myths to experience truth.

The difference is that no one is codifying these into a single religion.

What is interesting is that before Christianity came along pagans would absorb any god that came along. You will find in ancient Rome temples to Egyptian gods, Greek gods, Roman manifestations of various gods, and a deep respect for Jewish philosophy.

Christians incorrectly saw many of these as being polytheistic and you see them systematically destroying any reference to these gods by burning books, destroying libraries, taking over temples, and other violence starting as early as the late 1st century.

What you see referenced as polytheistic is the superstition of the general populace. Instead the scholars saw all of these gods as descriptions of part of the vast unknown god. That is why they allowed and absorbed everyone's gods.

The ancients were trying to absorb truth unfiltered by rational argument through ritual and myth. It is Christianity that has destroyed this.

Saint Augustine was the major theologian of the early church and he was a follower of Plato and he took Plato and used his rational view of the world and modified paganism, Jewish messianic mythology, and trade union mystery religions into Christianity as a single lens of truth. Augustine used his influence to convince the wealthy of the Roman empire to support his version of belief through bribes. He also began to systematically kill popular pagan philosophers and priests. Once Constantine brought the might of the Roman empire to bear, this view of the Roman Church was violently imposed on the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

I don't do underlining when I read a book.....but on this one, I can't stop! One of the best books I have read in a long time. This is a book I would highly recommend for study groups.

I am very much the same when I read. But my read of it has been in e-book form which has a quick highlighting function. So I have highlighted aplenty! (The advantage is that I can un-highlight if I want to later, allowing for temporary highlighting.)