Got Doubts?

[phkrause]

The only reason there are "difficult" passages is because they are irrational. What you call difficult is nonsensical. I understand the fear of engaging in the thought that maybe this god I have been constructing in my mind may not actually exist.

That doesn't mean that no god exists. It just means that whatever god we are making up in our own minds cannot exist. Once you go down enough rabbit holes one begins to realize that it is unknowable with our current tools.

And when you read the Bible knowing this you begin to realize that the Bible is simply men going down these same rabbit holes except they missed the paradoxes and began to believe their own illusions.

So when Christians claim that they do know and begin to make decisions based on that claim it appears to be based on a whole lot of ignorance and arrogance. Sometimes there is also a large dose of laziness, which Scott Peck, a Christian writer, has identified as the source of evil. They also tend to ignore over 2000 years of philosophical dialog.

It is possible to be secure in a world that is filled with mystery.

So just call me stupid or ignorant or anything else if you like. I am a Christian and have no doubts about the Bible. If I need answers on parts that I don't understand I will read EGW and not this book or that book, because I have no doubts about her books. The Bible writers were inspired even if you think they were not, or anyone else thinks that way, don't really care. If you can't except that, than that's your problem not mine. Yes I agree the Bible writers were no different than you or me, except for one thing! They heard the Lords call and excepted it, and gave the messages that he ask them to give, even though they were ridiculed or laughed at by others. Even when not believed by others they kept at it anyway. I see this now being done to those of the SDA church. People make remarks that you have to be ignorant or stupid to believe the Bible or EGW. And the funny thing is the Bible predicts this very thing, and in that one thing alone we have a fulfillment in prophecy. I think that's rather interesting to me since a number have said they know of no fulfillments that they can think of. They need evidence, well there's one right out there. Just incredible.

[Igakusei]

Satan, the ultimate bogeyman.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/alethianworldview/2011/09/28/gospel-disproof-6-satan/

[Igakusei]

So just call me stupid or ignorant or anything else if you like. I am a Christian and have no doubts about the Bible. If I need answers on parts that I don't understand I will read EGW and not this book or that book, because I have no doubts about her books. The Bible writers were inspired even if you think they were not, or anyone else thinks that way, don't really care. If you can't except that, than that's your problem not mine. Yes I agree the Bible writers were no different than you or me, except for one thing! They heard the Lords call and excepted it, and gave the messages that he ask them to give, even though they were ridiculed or laughed at by others. Even when not believed by others they kept at it anyway. I see this now being done to those of the SDA church. People make remarks that you have to be ignorant or stupid to believe the Bible or EGW. And the funny thing is the Bible predicts this very thing, and in that one thing alone we have a fulfillment in prophecy. I think that's rather interesting to me since a number have said they know of no fulfillments that they can think of. They need evidence, well there's one right out there. Just incredible.

[phkrause]

Keep believing that.

[Bravus]

There is no-one anywhere who lives absolutely everything in the Bible.

No-one does the animal sacrifices - OK, they were done away with at the cross.

No-one requires women to cover their heads and keep silent in church... but they'll use those texts to oppose women's ordination.

No-one avoids wearing blended fabrics, or woolen pants with a cotton shirt. And yet those texts are right alongside the ones about not eating seafood.

The pose 'I take the Bible at its word' is exposed as false by these few simple tests, and many more.

Everyone, therefore, uses human reason to pick and choose the pieces of the Bible to follow. Everyone.

So let there be no arrogance on choosing to believe in a literal creation, for example... it's simply a different set of choices about what to take from the text.

[Bravus]

(in fact, they're in Deuteronomy 22, same chapter with the recent much-discussed rape laws which were held up as being OK)

[doug yowell]

It's essential to know and understand how Christians view other people. I think that the quote below from John sums it up fairly well

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The Devil inspires people to doubt the Bible as God's word. He also inspires SDAs to question and doubt the ministry and work of Ellen G. White.

All who are not under the control of the Holy Spirit are under the control of Satan, whether they realize it or not.

This view leaves no room for possibility of genuine reasons for doubt. It all becomes a work of Satan, who apparently controls those who doubt.

I think that is a gross misrepresentation of both how most Christians view other people and of John's intent in his statement. If you have paid any attention to John's posts over the years you might have noticed noticed his consistent affirmation of his own genuine doubts as well as acknowledging that others have legitimate doubts as well.You may have noticed the difference between what he actually said "the Devil inspires..." and how you rephrased that to "under the control of Satan...".I have never known of a dedicated and thoughtful Christian that has never had doubts about what they believed in. Mother Teresa,John Welsey, the disciples, John the Baptist, ect... I have heard on numerous occasions several dedicated atheists who have no doubts that God coes not exist, and several who have no doubts that evolution is beyond questioning. So where does that put them in this view of other people debate? I think that if you have no doubts about the most important issues of this life, you're living in a parallel reality.Christian or not.

[fccool]

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The Bible writers were inspired even if you think they were not, or anyone else thinks that way, don't really care.

PK, first of all I applaud your civility, as I believe that these discussions should be carried without any hurt feelings or resentment. Thumbs up for your response.

On the other hand though, ignoring arguments may not be the best way to believe in something, unless you don't really care about truthfulness of the belief.

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If you can't except that, than that's your problem not mine. Yes I agree the Bible writers were no different than you or me, except for one thing! They heard the Lords call and excepted it, and gave the messages that he ask them to give, even though they were ridiculed or laughed at by others. Even when not believed by others they kept at it anyway. I see this now being done to those of the SDA church.

Have you ever heard the Lord in the same way that these people have... as a voice, or talking to you from burning bush? If not, why do you think that may be?

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People make remarks that you have to be ignorant or stupid to believe the Bible or EGW.

Not really. That's not why they are making these remarks. They are making these remarks because people ignore their reasons... and say things like "I don't care what you say or what reasons you give me, Bible is still true". That statement by definition is ignorant, because it seeks to ignore. I'm not trying to be derogatory, just trying to explain the reason for the word.

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And the funny thing is the Bible predicts this very thing, and in that one thing alone we have a fulfillment in prophecy. I think that's rather interesting to me since a number have said they know of no fulfillments that they can think of. They need evidence, well there's one right out there. Just incredible.

Isn't that a bit of commons sense though? Once again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful here. I know your faith is very important to you. At the same time, I think you should know why these people do what they do.

If my car manual tells me that if I turn the ignition, the car will make a rumbling sound, does that mean that my car manual is a holy book because the prophecy has been fulfilled ? It's very easy to predict generalities, especially if you expect certain reaction. That's not the type of thing that would qualify as proof that you yourself would accept as a proof that other religions are right.

[John317]

OK, but your definition doesn't agree with the Bible's teaching about inspiration, so your idea of it is your own personal opinion.

Originally Posted By: cardw

John,

So the writers of the Bible were incapable of writing from their own personal opinion?

Based on your previous study of the Bible, I'm sure you realize this is not true, and it is not what I'm saying. Obviously David wrote about his feelings and thoughts, and so did the apostle Paul at times.

You might think that I'm saying God dictated the Scriptures, but this would be a mistake. I don't believe the Bible was inspired by God dictating to the prophets. They were inspired in much the same way that Ellen White was inspired. She describes the process. God showed her visions and dreams and filled her mind with thoughts, and then later she was assisted by the Holy Spirit in writing out those visions, dreams, and thoughts. The words, however, were her own.

On occasion, the prophets used other people's writings to express what they had seen or what God had shown them. Some used secretaries to help them write their messages. One example that comes to mind is Jeremiah, whose secretary was Baruch. Paul also used secretaries. All this is clear evidence that God didn't dictate the inspired writings of the prophets. Ellen White was no different in this way from the Bible writers.

[fccool]

I think that is a gross misrepresentation of both how most Christians view other people and of John's intent in his statement. If you have paid any attention to John's posts over the years you might have noticed noticed his consistent affirmation of his own genuine doubts as well as acknowledging that others have legitimate doubts as well. You may have noticed the difference between what he actually said "the Devil inspires..." and how you rephrased that to "under the control of Satan...".

[fccool]

Quote:

God showed her visions and dreams and filled her mind with thoughts, and then later she was assisted by the Holy Spirit in writing out those visions, dreams, and thoughts. The words, however, were her own.

So, how would one differentiate between one's own dreams about God, and Visions from God. Or one's own thoughts and thoughts that Holy Spirit fills your mind with?

I think you've left out the issue of the library of her commentary material that she utilized to piece together the doctrines, sometimes verbatim. Do you believe that the writers that she borrowed from were inspired too? Perhaps you believe that God used the words of those writers to save some time on thought-filling process?

I'm not trying to be derogatory or sarcastic. Let me know if this question is unreasonable.

[Gail]

Have you never been inspired?

My goodness- I haven't been given great stuff like EGW, but as a writer there have been times when I've been awakened or kept awake by something that's just "come to me". And I always keep a pen and pad of paper by my bed so that I don't lose that thought. Then I'm able to pick it up later on during the day and finish the piece.

I think that's inspiration, too- and I thought that many people have that happen to them. Why not? I don't think that the gift of inspiration is particular to a very few people. It's just that some had that as their lifetime main gift.

Sometimes as Adventists we are too scared to admit that there IS a Holy Spirit that works with us individually. EVERY believer should have one or more gifts. I don't think that is anything to be ashamed of. It's what God gives us to serve others better.

[John317]

... He picked a single Greek text, and analyzed it until he "found" patterns in the text.

Yes, he picked a single printed Greek text and he didn't try to change the patterns by selecting others in order to bring out a different pattern. In other words, he wasn't manipulating the text for the sake of showing a particular pattern.

Of course one must look for the patterns. But it is not a matter of making the patterns. The patterns are clearly there.

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

He could have used any other "variant" and done the same thing.

It's true that all of the ancient biblical manuscripts have these patterns. On some of the manuscripts, the pattern wouldn't be exactly the same, but the same kinds of patters would still be there, nonetheless.

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

He also could have used any other book and done the same thing.

I would need to see evidence.

Do you mean you believe that if he used the book, Portrait of the Artist As a Young Man, he would get the same kind of pattern?

Where is the evidence of this?

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

If the patterns were significantly more convincing and he arrived at them by studying the original texts, you might have a legitimate argument. But they aren't, and he didn't (because the original texts don't exist).

Can you give an example of how they could be more "convincing"?

As for needing the original texts, there is no reason to believe the original manuscripts were any different than the copies we have, at least to any significant extent. They were copied with great care. All of them tell the same essential story.

[Igakusei]

You've asked this question a couple times before, and other people have already provided some answers.

See post #479988 for one of them.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

So when Christians claim that they do know and begin to make decisions based on that claim it appears to be based on a whole lot of ignorance and arrogance. Sometimes there is also a large dose of laziness, which Scott Peck, a Christian writer, has identified as the source of evil. They also tend to ignore over 2000 years of philosophical dialog.

It is possible to be secure in a world that is filled with mystery.

So just call me stupid or ignorant or anything else if you like.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

... He picked a single Greek text, and analyzed it until he "found" patterns in the text.

Yes, he picked a single printed Greek text and he didn't try to change the patterns by selecting others in order to bring out a different pattern. In other words, he wasn't manipulating the text for the sake of showing a particular pattern.

John I've posted evidence that he did alter the text to show a particular pattern.

As usual, when you get in a corner, you ignore the evidence even when it is extremely strong.

I gave you the computer program and I gave you the analysis and still you continue along this same line of claims.

This shows that you only look at what supports what you have decided is true. And then you have the arrogance to claim that it is what god wants us to believe.

[doug yowell]

Do you ever doubt that Zeus does not exist ? On the other hand, do you doubt that airplanes do? I hope you see my point.

I see your point. You have no doubts that all that exists is in the realm of the physically observable today though there are evidences to the contrary. Did Jesus of Nazareth exist? Do you have good evidence to the contrary that would dispel all doubt How many "eyewitnesses" testified to the reality of Zeus? It is an noncritical question, you are comparing the ongoing clams of the Eternal God to Zeus? Ever wonder why no one believes that one of them never existed? Your post merely acknowledges that those with all the answers are those that don't doubt their own conclusions but are quick to point out the intransigence of those whose conclusions were built on testing their doubts.

Do you believe in the existence of the spiritual,cool? Is all that exists simply observable matter? Is it remotely possibly that the billions of earth's population who have believed in the existence of a "humanlike" power that exceeds human abilities exists somewhere,may be on to something?

[Igakusei]

You may be confusing fccool with someone like cardw, because you're putting a lot of words in his mouth.

[fccool]

Quote:

I see your point. You have no doubts that all that exists is in the realm of the physically observable today though there are evidences to the contrary. Did Jesus of Nazareth exist? Do you have good evidence to the contrary that would dispel all doubt How many "eyewitnesses" testified to the reality of Zeus?

It depends what you would consider as credible "eyewitnesses" . If I write a book that claims that there are 10 other people who witnessed with me a miracle in the year of Presidency of Obama... does it automatically support my claim?

Can you use my written claim as a proof of an event that took place, especially if such claim is of supernatural beings?

See the definition of hearsay, and why such evidence is not admissible in the court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay

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It is an noncritical question, you are comparing the ongoing clams of the Eternal God to Zeus?

It's not a called a noncritical question. It's called a loaded question

Quote:

Ever wonder why no one believes that one of them never existed? Your post merely acknowledges that those with all the answers are those that don't doubt their own conclusions but are quick to point out the intransigence of those whose conclusions were built on testing their doubts.

Hmm, we are talking about personal doubts though. Personal conclusions results from a series of doubts. I think it's unrealistic for people to doubt their conclusions at any given moment , especially if such conclusions are supported by proper evidence. Do I really have to doubt for you that there's a statue of liberty in NYC? People should be able to reasonably defend against doubts of other people, especially if they are asked to believe certain claims or conclusions. Conclusion should comes through filters that doubts are. What you are doing above is akin to pointing to dietician and saying "How can you teach us about food, when you are not eating right this moment?"

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Do you believe in the existence of the spiritual,cool?

If by "spiritual" you mean an anthropomorphic guy who sits on a throne somewhere behind the space clouds of Orion galaxy, and who is surrounded by other beings who were created to remind him how great he is ... then no.

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Is all that exists simply observable matter?

No, there are a set of being that I call invisible aliens. People unknowingly photographed them on occasion. Here're some photos:

This one sits in this arm-chair:

Here's a whole bunch of them enjoying a baseball game:

Now, prove to me they are not really there!

I mean, do I really have to use "reduction to the absurd" for you to get the point of proper proof of certain claims?

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Is it remotely possibly that the billions of earth's population who have believed in the existence of a "humanlike" power that exceeds human abilities exists somewhere,may be on to something?

Sure it is REMOTELY possible. But you don't consider and teach it as a possibility. You believe and promote it as a fact with all of the characteristics and details that accompany it. And instead of pointing to pictures of empty chair for proof, you point to a person who writes about witnesses and you claim that to be a proof. Do you understand a concept what constitutes a proof? You have to, because you use it against every religion you don't believe in.

[CoAspen]

Ordered the book, very inexpensive, from Amazon.

Will read and then compare the assumptions to the real thing...just sayn'!!

[M. T. Cross]

I have seen it claimed here that the Biblical writers where inspired by God. Often times the message brought by an angel.

Cool.

Alister Crowly claimed to have recieved messages from an angel

Joseph Smith did as well.

Many people have claimed to have had inspired dreams and visions from other deity.

Who are we to say who is right and who is wrong?

[Neil D]

I have seen it claimed here that the Biblical writers where inspired by God. Often times the message brought by an angel.

Cool.

Alister Crowly claimed to have recieved messages from an angel

Joseph Smith did as well.

Many people have claimed to have had inspired dreams and visions from other deity.

Who are we to say who is right and who is wrong?

we are skeptics.....people who don't like to be decieved....We all have been decieved at least once...see the book of Genesis, chapter 3...and we have lived with the results...many times to our detriment....

But having said all that, we do like to believe in the possibility that what is said is true....ie that Someone does really love us, and here is/are the evidences that He does....

after all, who wants to miss out on true love...?

We see the evidence, we think about the evidence, we feel the evidence, and then we behave as if the evidence is true...For example...I see my math homework and I don't understand it. I dont' feel like doing it, and I don't do the math homework....

that is how we act....

If we see the evidence of Jesus existance, and we believe in that evidence, and we feel like it's true, we should live it..

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I have seen it claimed here that the Biblical writers where inspired by God. Often times the message brought by an angel.

Cool.

Alister Crowly claimed to have recieved messages from an angel

Joseph Smith did as well.

Many people have claimed to have had inspired dreams and visions from other deity.

Who are we to say who is right and who is wrong?

we are skeptics.....people who don't like to be decieved....We all have been decieved at least once...see the book of Genesis, chapter 3...and we have lived with the results...many times to our detriment....

But having said all that, we do like to believe in the possibility that what is said is true....ie that Someone does really love us, and here is/are the evidences that He does....

after all, who wants to miss out on true love...?

We see the evidence, we think about the evidence, we feel the evidence, and then we behave as if the evidence is true...For example...I see my math homework and I don't understand it. I dont' feel like doing it, and I don't do the math homework....

that is how we act....

If we see the evidence of Jesus existance, and we believe in that evidence, and we feel like it's true, we should live it..

You have struck upon my dilema.

There are so many messages. So many so called "truths". But we as a species have to dig to find these "truths". They are so often shrouded in myth, in fairy tales, in amongst lies, and there are so many paths to get to the end truth, if indeed there is one.

I truly think there is no "one" true way. That each of us have to find the path that leads us to where we need to get too. This is my problem with organized, dogmatic religion be it one of the Abrahamic religions, eastern philosophy or paganism. When we sit and say "This is IT. These are the absolute rules, follow them or be lost!" we limit our own growth, we limit our chances of KNOWING. Belief and knowledge are very different things. Blind faith is just choosing to believe what makes you the most comfortable. Believing the thing that makes you feel safe, and often the thing that takes the most self accountability away from you.

By questioning everything we can move beyond belief into knowledge. I think we should all question things until we have travelled through the fear and discomfort of the possibility that everything we thought we believed is wrong. Once you have gone through that, and looked at things extremely critically, if you still arrive at the same spot you were before - now you KNOW.

In a Christians case I think that means looking long and hard at all the discrepancies of the Bible and working them through. Pray to your god to give you the answer, the real answer, to make it make sense. When you get that answer then you have knowledge. But this whole "God works in mysterious ways" "God says it so its true" is a very limited view to me.

Of course all of this is just my POV. How I got where I am. People are not always ready to get the answers, and thats just part of the journey.

[cardw]

we are skeptics.....people who don't like to be decieved....We all have been decieved at least once...see the book of Genesis, chapter 3...and we have lived with the results...many times to our detriment....

But having said all that, we do like to believe in the possibility that what is said is true....ie that Someone does really love us, and here is/are the evidences that He does....

after all, who wants to miss out on true love...?

We see the evidence, we think about the evidence, we feel the evidence, and then we behave as if the evidence is true...For example...I see my math homework and I don't understand it. I dont' feel like doing it, and I don't do the math homework....

that is how we act....

If we see the evidence of Jesus existance, and we believe in that evidence, and we feel like it's true, we should live it..

I guess on a pragmatic basis if this helps people treat each other better then alright.

The problem is that it often comes with a lot of shoulds and extra hoops to jump through like I have to make this true by behaving like it's true. I never found that sufficient to fool myself.

The most real examples of love that I have experienced has been with people. I can easily see the evidence and I can easily feel the evidence. I have never experienced that as a result of praying or trying to make something real.

The human capacity to bond as a community is very powerful and it has really helped me to settle into who I am and become secure in a world filled with a lot of mystery.

While a lot of Christian beliefs don't make a lot of sense I think those who have a close functioning community are really drawing from that. I have never found reading the bible and praying to be effective. They seemed to be add ons in an attempt to make something that is very normal Christian.

This need to make stuff Christian seems to be more about ego than helpful.

[cardw]

You have struck upon my dilema.

There are so many messages. So many so called "truths". But we as a species have to dig to find these "truths". They are so often shrouded in myth, in fairy tales, in amongst lies, and there are so many paths to get to the end truth, if indeed there is one.

I truly think there is no "one" true way. That each of us have to find the path that leads us to where we need to get too. This is my problem with organized, dogmatic religion be it one of the Abrahamic religions, eastern philosophy or paganism. When we sit and say "This is IT. These are the absolute rules, follow them or be lost!" we limit our own growth, we limit our chances of KNOWING

There is a saying in Buddhism, (I'm not Buddhist nor am I promoting Buddhism)

"If you see Buddha walking down the road kill him."

I think this is referring to this need to name things and say we have arrived.

It basically means that if you think you know what Buddha is then you need to kill that.

It makes sense that if we live in an infinite universe with infinite possibilities and we have a limited capacity to understand and limited time to learn then as soon as I say "This is it" then I'm limiting my search. It's rather arrogant because then I'm claiming to have an exhaustive knowledge of all possible outcomes without an experienced proof.

We can calculate things to predict outcomes, but so often there is some hidden variable we didn't account for. And in an infinite universe these variables could be quite extensive.

We function by probabilities because we can't know every outcome. And that is simply a clever functional way to live life without knowing everything. It often seems real, but at some point it still is an illusion.

One can be afraid of that illusion or one can choose to live life like it will all work out. I simply choose to live like it all will work out because that is a far more pleasant way to be. Most times if something isn't going to work out I didn't waste time worrying about it and shifted my focus when the events required it.

That is the human condition as I see it.