Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 Thus, salvation is "life, original, unborrowed, underived." Salvation is eternal life and immortality. You cannot derive underived life. Is Christ self-existent? Ellen White is not saying that you will have in you life that is "original, unborrowed, underived." Only Christ and God have that life. What Christ offers us now is "eternal life" and later He will give us the gift of "immortal life." Christ can give us that life because "in Him is life, original, unborrowed, underived." Did you ever read what M.L. Andreason said about those words? He knew what they meant, which was why he at first didn't believe Ellen White wrote them. What they mean is that Christ is God, equal with the Father. Andreason knew this, which is why he went to Ellen White's house in 1906 in order to talk with her about them and to read them in her own handwriting. As a result of reading those words in her own handwriting, Andreason stuied to the topic of the Godhead in the Bible and became a convinced Trinitarian. It was Ellen White's writings in such things as DA 530 which caused the SDA church to study the Godhead and eventually change its views. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gordon1 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 John, it seems you may be denying salvation. You may need to forfeit your human definition of 'derived'. Or you may feel Ellen White wrote in error. Either way I'm not a debater. Her English is plain enough, not designed to confuse. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 Her English is plain enough, not designed to confuse. That is true. Was the pre-incarnate Christ self-existent? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Waite Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite IT IS VERY CLEAR IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE THAT SHE DESCRIBED THE "LIFE OF CHRIST" AS "UNBORROWED". SHE THEN TALKS ABOUT THIS "UNBORROWED" LIFE AS "THIS LIFE". IN REFERENCE TO "THIS LIFE" SHE STATES: "I lay it down of myself," AND IN REFERENCE TO "THIS LIFE" SHE STATES: "This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour." Ellen White wrote: Quote: Christ's Life Was Unborrowed.--"In Him was life; and the life was the light of men." It is not physical life that is here specified, but eternal life, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3. This is the open fountain of life for the world (ST Feb. 13, 1912). {5BC 1130.3} Quote: Still seeking to give a true direction to her faith, Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. "He that believeth in Me," said Jesus, "though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Christ here looks forward to the time of His second coming. Then the righteous dead shall be raised incorruptible, and the living righteous shall be translated to heaven without seeing death. The miracle which Christ was about to perform, in raising Lazarus from the dead, would represent the resurrection of all the righteous dead. By His word and His works He declared Himself the Author of the resurrection. He who Himself was soon to die upon the cross stood with the keys of death, a conqueror of the grave, and asserted His right and power to give eternal life. {DA 530.3} Why is Christ the resurrection, and the life? Because "in Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived." You and I will never be the resurrection, and the life. You and I will never have life in us that is "original, unborrowed, underived." Why not? Because you and I never originated life. Christ did. So did God the Father. Only the One who originated life can have original life. We can have eternal life and immortal life, but we cannot derive underived life. You cannot borrow something that is unborrowed. You cannot derive something that is not derived. John: Either you do not want to believe the words of Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God and you want to make Him say something that He did not say. Look at His words again: " For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. " Quote grw
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 John, it seems you may be denying salvation. You may need to forfeit your human definition of 'derived'. What does "underived" mean in the context of DA 530? "In Christ in life, original, unborrowed, underived." The context is that Christ is the resurrection and the life. Does that text mean Christ will make everyone who's resurrected have life in them that is "original, borrowed, underived"? Or does it mean that Christ will raise up the righteous and give them the gift of immortality? The definition from the 1828 edition of Webster's Dictionary: UNDERIVED, a. Not derived; not borrowed; not received from a foreign source. Thus Ellen White said that Christ did not receive His original life from anyone outside Himself. That is what it means to be "self-existent." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 John:Either you do not want to believe the words of Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God and you want to make Him say something that He did not say. Look at His words again: " For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. " Was the pre-incarnate Son self-existent? The 1828 edition of Webster's Dictionary gives the following definition: SELF-EXISTENCE, n. [self and existence.] Inherent existence; the existence possossed by virtue of a being's own nature, and independent of any other being or cause; an attribute peculiar to God. SELF-EXISTENT, a. Existing by its own nature or essense, independent of any other cause. God is the only self-existent being. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gordon1 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 John 3:17 wrote: You and I will never have life in us that is "original, unborrowed, underived." Ellen White is not saying that you will have in you life that is "original, unborrowed, underived." EGW wrote: "In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour." (Not everyone will believe.) Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 EGW wrote: "In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. Gordon1, was the pre-incarnate Christ self-existent? What does "self-existent" mean? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gordon1 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 The Son of God was brought forth in the days of eternity. See Proverbs 8, Micah 5:2 & PP 36. "The Lord possessed me.." (v. 22) "I was set up.." (v.23) "I was brought forth.." (v. 24) "I was brought forth.." (v. 25) "I was by him, as one brought up with him.." (v. 30) "yet few would receive Him as the Son of God" PP 64. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 EGW wrote: "In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour." The Bible says: 1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. Notice the Scriptures say nothing about making us have in us "life original, unborrowed, underived." What we will have is eternal life and the gift of immortality. You are making Ellen White say something she never said. Let's look again at what she said: Quote: "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men." It is not physical life that is here specified, but eternal life, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3. This is the open fountain of life for the world (ST Feb. 13, 1912). {5BC 1130.3} Christ's life was unborrowed. It means Christ was not dependent on anyone outside of Himself for His existence. We can only possess life through Christ. That's what is said in the following text: 1 John 5:12-13 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. [13] I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 The Son of God was brought forth in the days of eternity. See Proverbs 8, Micah 5:2 & PP 36. "The Lord possessed me.." (v. 22) "I was set up.." (v.23) "I was brought forth.." (v. 24) "I was brought forth.." (v. 25) "I was by him, as one brought up with him.." (v. 30) None of those verses are talking about the beginning of the existence of the pre-incarnate Christ. [Christ was in close association with the Father "from ALL eternity."] They are talking about the pre-incarnate Christ being "brought forth" and "possessed" or "set up" for His work of blessing the world. But again, was the pre-incarnate Christ self-existent? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gordon1 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 "His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him." - Spirit of Prophecy Vol.1, p.18. Christ was the Son of God before creation. He was fully subject to His Father's will. This has never changed. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 "His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him." - Spirit of Prophecy Vol.1, p.18. Christ was the Son of God before creation. Yes, of course, Christ was the Son of God before creation. He was the "eternal, self-existent Son." Notice He was "self-existent." What does "self-existent" mean? Being "the Son" does not mean that Christ came out of God's Being or that He had His beginnings from God. "The Son" has reference to the fact that Christ was of the same nature and had the same essence as God. He was God. When He became man, Christ became the Son of God in a new and different sense. At that point God literally became Christ's Father. Before Christ's birth as a human, God was not literally His Father. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 Or you may feel Ellen White wrote in error. Absolutely not. I believe in all of her writings, including Evangelism, 614-617 and in the things in Manuscript Releases. She wrote that the pre-incarnate Christ was "self-existent". What does that mean? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gordon1 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 I believe in all of her writings. Then you would be vegan John. Quote
miz3 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gordon1 ..."He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour." This is plainly speaking of salvation. Yes, indeed. It is speaking of salvation, eternal life, and the gift of immortality. That is different from "life original, unborrowed, underived." You cannot derive underived life. Life originated the Christ, and even God can't give you underived life. That would be like giving you life that has no beginning. It can't be done. God's life has no beginning. Yours does and always will have a beginning. Your life will always be a derived life that originated with God. John317 God does NOT give you a "borrowed" life. God gives you HIS "unborrowed" life. I believe this is what Gordon1 is saying. If that is what he is saying I agree with him. Gordon1 if I have misstated your position I apologize and await your correction. Quote
Gordon1 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Proverbs 8 and Micah 5:2 refer to Christ's origins in the days of eternity. For this reason, EGW enters both passages at the very start of her Conflict Series - the second page of Patriarchs & Prophets no less! Furthermore, here she quotes Proverbs 8 as the words of Christ Himself. Nothing could be clearer. How can we argue with Christ? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 John317 God does NOT give you a "borrowed" life. God gives you HIS "unborrowed" life. The point is that God gives us the gift of eternal life. What is a gift? It is derived from someone else. Immortality will be given to the saved. They receive it-- or borrow it-- from God. Human beings will never have "original" life in them. You can't derive underived life from someone. Only God has original life. "Original life" means life that God originated. Since no human originated life, no human will ever have original life. We can have eternal life and recieve the gift of immortality, but that is not the same as having "life, original, unborrowed, underived." This life only Christ and God have. That is why only God can create life. Humans never will. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 John317 God does NOT give you a "borrowed" life. God gives you HIS "unborrowed" life. The point is that God gives us the gift of eternal life. What is a gift? It is derived from someone else. Immortality will given to the saved. They get it-- or borrow it-- from God. Human beings will never have "original" life in them. You can't derive underived life from someome. Only God has original life. "Original life" means life that God originated. Since no human originated life, no human will ever have original life. We can have eternal life and recieve the gift of immortality, but that is not the same as having "life, original, unborrowed, underived." This life only Christ and God have. That is why only God can create life. Humans never will. The saved will have God's "original" life in them. Humans don't have their own life they receive life from God, which is "unborrowed life". Thus the saved have God's "original life" in them. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 Was the pre-incarnate Christ "self-existent"? I don't see where you have answered the question. If you have, I apologize for asking it again. Please tell the definition of "self-existent." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 Proverbs 8 and Micah 5:2 refer to Christ's origins in the days of eternity. None of those texts are saying that the pre-incarnate Christ did not exist at some point. They are not talking about how Christ originated. If you believe otherwise, please quote the sentence that you believe teaches that Christ's existence had a beginning. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gordon1 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Gordon1 if I have misstated your position I apologize and await your correction. Little commentary is imposed, rather just quoting the sources. As Dr. Waite says, this is plain English. John 317 sees it differently. If the Bible say God gave His Son, I believe it - He had a Son to give - His own Son. Christ was the Son of God, brought forth in the days of eternity past (Micah 5:2). At Bethlehem he became the Son of Man, still God's Son in a new sense as well. If Christ was not God's real Son, this would render the Scriptures a sham and a confusing charade. Just as the Roman priests would have it. But God is not the author of confusion. When He says My Son, He is earnest. This was the price of our Redemption. Let none belittle it. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 The saved will have God's "original" life in them. Humans don't have their own life they receive life from God, which is "unborrowed life". Thus the saved have God's "original life" in them. I agree that the saved will receive God's gift of life, which is why they will be made immortal. Life originated in God and in Christ. Christ did not receive His life from God the Father or from the Holy Spirit. Christ always had life in Himself. The saved will derive this life from God. Christ, however, never derived life from anyone. That is why Christ says of Himself that He is the resurrection, and the life. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gordon1 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 the definition of "self-existent." If you can furnish the Bible text which uses these English words, then a definition may be possible. If not, then you are asking my opinion which is not worth much if anything at all. Let's stick with inspired sources on such an important theme. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2011 Moderators Posted October 15, 2011 If Christ was not God's real Son, this would render the Scriptures a sham and a confusing charade. Just as the Roman priests would have it. But God is not the author of confusion. When He says My Son, He is earnest. This was the price of our Redemption. Let none belittle it. Is Christ the Lamb of God a real lamb? Since He is not, does that make the Scriptures a sham and confusion? What does "Son of God" mean? Is it intended to mean that Christ came out of God's Being or His body? No. It is intended to tell us about the relationship between Christ and the Father. It tells us that He is equal to God. It tells us that He loves the Father and the Father loves Him. Finally, it tells us that He is the perfect expression of His Father, just as a human son reflects his father. You will notice that when Christ claimed to be "the Son of God," the Jews did not say, "Oh, you are saying your existence began from God." No, the Jews knew immediately that Jesus was telling that that He was equal with God. "Son of God" points not to His beginning, but rather it points to His nature-- that He is God. Similarly, "Son of man" does not point to how Christ came into being, but it points to the fact that Christ has the nature of man. It is not telling us how He came into existence. It is telling us that He has the same nature as Adam, not that Adam gave birth to Him. Son of = of the order of For instance, there were "sons of the singers." There were also "sons of the prophets." Those titles don't refer to how they came into existence, but they do tell us about their nature-- they are of the order of the singers or of the order of the prophets. Apply this to the name "Son of God." It means Jesus is God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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