Moderators John317 Posted October 19, 2011 Moderators Posted October 19, 2011 God is both Love and Hate. NO, God is not hate. You are going over the line here, miz3. You don't know what you're talking about. God IS love. The Bible does say that He hates evil, but nowhere does it say that God IS hate. For sure God hates sin, and those who persist in it and do not repent will be utterly destroyed along with all sin and unrepentent sinners, but that is different from saying God hates sinners. God loves sinners and wants them to change so they won't be destroyed. He sent Jesus to die for people while they were still wicked. The Devil is hate. You're confusing the characteristics of Satan with those of Jesus. Jesus is not hate. It is the Devil who would like people to think Jesus is hate. Satan is out to make people think God is just like the Devil. We need to be clear about the big differences between them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 19, 2011 Moderators Posted October 19, 2011 ...The Bible clearly states that God "hates". It is not ambiguous. God is both Love and Hate. Do you do any evangelism on the streets? How about in the prisons? If so, do you tell the people "God hates you"? Do you tell homosexuals, "God hates you"? Is that the gospel of Jesus Christ? God loves homosexuals just as much as He loves any other sinner. He wants us to tell them how much God loves them but also how much God hates sin and how much He loves righteousness. He wants us to tell them that unless they repent and turn from their sins, putting their trust in Christ, they can't be saved in God's kingdom. That was the message of Paul and Peter, but never did they tell people, "God hates you" or "God hates all sinners." That's a false gospel, the very one that Satan would love people to hear. Here's the true gospel: 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I think Robert is saying that people generally don't do what Christ said: to love ALL others as much as we love ourselves. No, I believe we can grow and become more like Christ. In fact the last generation of believers "loved not their loves even unto death" Quote
Robert Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Yet we have cases, such as Ananias and Sapphira, where God did "kill". It's assumed. Quote
Robert Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 NO, God is not hate. You are going over the line here, miz3. You don't know what you're talking about. God IS love. Bingo! You got that right, John. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 19, 2011 Moderators Posted October 19, 2011 I believe we can grow and become more like Christ. In fact the last generation of believers "loved not their loves even unto death" Yes, great point. But wouldn't you agree that there are Christians who have already done this-- have loved Christ more than their own lives and were willing to sacrifice themselves for Him? I recall a quote by Ellen White in which she says that the it is better to die than to sin. Won't that be the condition of the last generation you refer to? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 God is both Love and Hate. NO, God is not hate. You are going over the line here, miz3. You don't know what you're talking about. God IS love. The Bible does say that He hates evil, but nowhere does it say that God IS hate. For sure God hates sin, and those who persist in it and do not repent will be utterly destroyed along with all sin and unrepentent sinners, but that is different from saying God hates sinners. God loves sinners and wants them to change so they won't be destroyed. He sent Jesus to die for people while they were still wicked. The Devil is hate. You're confusing the characteristics of Satan with those of Jesus. Jesus is not hate. It is the Devil who would like people to think Jesus is hate. Satan is out to make people think God is just like the Devil. We need to be clear about the big differences between them. You are denying the clear unambiguous Word of God which states as I have shown that God is both Love and Hate. You keep trying to separate the sin from the sinner and this cannot be done because the Bible does not separate the sin from the sinner. If the Bible "separates the sin from the sinner" then show me the Bible references that actually do this. This "separation concept" of yours is a human construction intended to make God more palatable to "sinners" especially "sinners" in prisons, homosexuals, other "odd" human lifestyles, etc. It is intended to take the "guilt" out of the human personage. It is intended to paint a slanted picture of God so the human person will not "dwell" on the "guilt" of their sin and how heinous that sin which is "what they the person are" is in the sight of God and how vengeful God will be to those who He throws in Hell. It is intended to tell the sinner that their sin is a separate entity from them and that they as humans are really not so bad. These persons are not them told the Truth which is that the "sin has permeated them to such an extent that they the person are indeed sin". That is what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that each one of us humans is indeed "SIN" and that God's Wrath and Hatred is against us (see Romans chapters 1-5) because we humans are SIN. Thus, SDA evangelism is made easier to those who commit the most devious sins in our society. I find this amazing that SDA will change the express Word of God so as to make evangelism easier for them by trying to remove the GUILT from the sinner. And then SDA accuse the RCC/Pope of changing the Word of God. This changing of the Word of God is far more heinous a sin then simply changing days of worship because it attempts to "CHANGE GOD AND WHO GOD IS". The express Word of God says that God Hates just as much as God Loves. Yet you John317 are willing to deny the clear express Word of God to suit your own human viewpoint, a viewpoint that is NOT BIBLICAL. I believe it is you, John317 who are going over the line here. Quote
miz3 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 ...The Bible clearly states that God "hates". It is not ambiguous. God is both Love and Hate. Do you do any evangelism on the streets? How about in the prisons? If so, do you tell the people "God hates you"? Do you tell homosexuals, "God hates you"? Is that the gospel of Jesus Christ? God loves homosexuals just as much as He loves any other sinner. He wants us to tell them how much God loves them but also how much God hates sin and how much He loves righteousness. He wants us to tell them that unless they repent and turn from their sins, putting their trust in Christ, they can't be saved in God's kingdom. That was the message of Paul and Peter, but never did they tell people, "God hates you" or "God hates all sinners." That's a false gospel, the very one that Satan would love people to hear. Here's the true gospel: 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. I see that you highlighted the second part of 1Corinthians 6:9-11. However, the first part of that text says that sin and sinner are the same and that such will burn in Hell. You see John317 you are only giving a one-sided Gospel because you don't want to make your "evangelism" hard. Paul did not do what you are doing. Paul as evidenced by your text told BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY. Why do you want to tell people only one-side of the Gospel? Why do want to keep the Truth from these poor sinners? That is NOT COMPASSION, NO NO. THAT IS NOTHING BUT DECEIT. John317 quote the whole text properly and don't just highlight the parts that you want to be only true. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 19, 2011 Moderators Posted October 19, 2011 You are denying the clear unambiguous Word of God which states as I have shown that God is both Love and Hate. We both know there's a verse which says "God is love." I'll literally eat my computer if you can show me a verse that says "God is hate." Can you do it? Do you know the difference between saying "God is hate" and "God hates" something or someone? Huge difference there! "Is" speaks to God's very Being. It's one thing to do and it's another thing altogether to BE. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Yet we have cases, such as Ananias and Sapphira, where God did "kill". It's assumed. God broke His own Law by killing. That is a Biblical FACT. Thus, your theory that God has to obey His Own Law is not the Truth. Quote
miz3 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 You are denying the clear unambiguous Word of God which states as I have shown that God is both Love and Hate. We both know there's a verse which says "God is love." I'll literally eat my computer if you can show me a verse that says "God is hate." Can you do it? Start eating John317. I did show several texts that states that God Hates. You keep wanting to deny their existence. In addition you want to change the Word of God but in a more sinister way than the RCC/Pope ever did. Must I list them again, and again. Quote
miz3 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Try these texts: 1. Psalm 11:5 "The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates." I believe this explicitly states that God hates the wicked, the wicked human entity. This alone proves you wrong. 2. Proverbs 6:16-19. "There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers." Let's see God hates eyes, tongue, hands, heart, feet, that do evil. In addition God hates the "human who is a false witness". The whole human person. Also, God hates the "man" who stirs up dissension with other humans. So God indeed does HATE THE HUMAN AS A WHOLE ENTITY. 3. Jeremiah 12:8. "My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her." Clear Word that God hates Israel (His inheritance), THAT IS HUMANS. 4. Hosea 9:15. "Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious." Again, God is stating that He hates the persons of Israel. That God HATES HUMANS. 5. Malachi 1:2-3. "I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals." You state that God is not talking about Esau the person. Ok, lets give you that. However, God is talking about "human people" that He hates. God is stating that He hates every man, woman, child, and little tiny baby of the Esauites. That is each individual of that group God hates. They are "individual humans". 6. Romans 9:13 "Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Let's say again for your sake that this is not talking about the very person of Esau. Ok, we give you that again. Now reread the notes on Malachi chapter one above and see again that we are still talking about God hating humans including little tiny babies and those still in the womb. You are clearly wrong because the Bible definitively states that God does indeed hate "humans" as individuals and as groups, regardless God still hates humans. Here are those texts that explicitly state that God is not just "agape" God is also "Hate". This is also God's Word and I take Him at His Word too when He says that He Hates human persons. It is there in very plain and simple language. Either you accept it or you reject it. Originally Posted By: miz3 Basically what everything boils down to is: God says you humans obey me and love me or I will kill and torture you in Hell. That is God. Whether you like it or not that is God. For you, Lysimachus, to say that these plain and clear Bible statements are pagan is just shocking. Here is the Bible speaking again of how God hates. Is the Bible wrong? For your benefit I give you list of Bible texts again. Why do you keep denying the plain, clear, unambiguous Word of God? Why do SDA keep changing the Word of God in a manner that is more heinous than the RCC/Pope? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 19, 2011 Moderators Posted October 19, 2011 God broke His own Law by killing. That is a Biblical FACT. No, God didn't break His own law. God's law doesn't prohibit killing. It forbids murder, and God cannot murder. Besides, the law you speak of wasn't designed for God. It is God's law FOR mankind. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 19, 2011 Moderators Posted October 19, 2011 We both know there's a verse which says "God is love." I'll literally eat my computer if you can show me a verse that says "God is hate." Can you do it? Originally Posted By: miz3 Start eating John317. I did show several texts that states that God Hates. Read again: a verse that says "God is hate." Don't you read? I even talked about the difference between doing and being. "God Is hate" is being; "God hates" is doing. You said "God is hate." Can you show this from the Bible? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 God broke His own Law by killing. That is a Biblical FACT. No, God didn't break His own law. God's law doesn't prohibit killing. It forbids murder, and God cannot murder. Besides, the law you speak of wasn't designed for God. It is God's law FOR mankind. I was responding to Robert. Robert believes unlike you that God's Law was indeed designed by God for God and that God has to obey His Own Law in this regard. I agree with you that this Law of God was designed only for mankind in the "sinful state". However Robert believes differently. Quote
miz3 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 We both know there's a verse which says "God is love." I'll literally eat my computer if you can show me a verse that says "God is hate." Can you do it? Originally Posted By: miz3 Start eating John317. I did show several texts that states that God Hates. Read again: a verse that says "God is hate." Don't you read? I even talked about the difference between doing and being. "God Is hate" is being; "God hates" is doing. You said "God is hate." Can you show this from the Bible? Don't you read? The text you seek is there in the list I gave again and again. Start eating, bon a petite. Quote
Robert Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 “Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438] I don't believe the christian church, and hence christians, are perfectly reflecting christ now. But I really don't want to get off into this issue here..... Quote
Robert Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Thus, your theory that God has to obey His Own Law is not the Truth. It's assumed He killed Ananias and Sapphira Quote
Robert Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I agree with you that this Law of God was designed only for mankind in the "sinful state". However Robert believes differently. Yes, the law from Sinai was made for man. However, the spirituality of the law has existed from eternity. God cannot force or coerce. It's against His nature. Quote
Alchemy Posted October 20, 2011 Author Posted October 20, 2011 Well, Christ did say He had power to lay down His life, and take it up again. I don't believe His divinity could actually die, because divinity is eternal, but what about soul sleep type of existence. Or is that what some are saying about Christ's consciousness? (bold emphasis mine) Quote Luke 12:32 NKJV
miz3 Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 I agree with you that this Law of God was designed only for mankind in the "sinful state". However Robert believes differently. Yes, the law from Sinai was made for man. However, the spirituality of the law has existed from eternity. God cannot force or coerce. It's against His nature. Please explain what you mean by the "spirituality of the law". Second God does indeed force and coerce. Those that worship God get to live and those that don't worship God are tortured with unimaginable suffering before God and Jesus Christ in Hell (Revelation says so). I call that forcing and coercion. Quote
Robert Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Second God does indeed force and coerce. Those that worship God get to live and those that don't worship God are tortured with unimaginable suffering before God and Jesus Christ in Hell (Revelation says so). I call that forcing and coercion. Then why do we need a devil? He uses force and coercion. Your theology is a great recruiting tool in the creation of agnostics. It is the doctrine of devils. Quote
miz3 Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Second God does indeed force and coerce. Those that worship God get to live and those that don't worship God are tortured with unimaginable suffering before God and Jesus Christ in Hell (Revelation says so). I call that forcing and coercion. Then why do we need a devil? He uses force and coercion. Your theology is a great recruiting tool in the creation of agnostics. It is the doctrine of devils. 1. We don't need a devil but he is here none the less. 2. The devil cannot force or coerce you to do anything. It is your "sinful nature" (see Romans) that forces you to do evil. 3. My theology is the Doctrine of the Bible as I have demonstrated repeatedly. Quote
Robert Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 1. We don't need a devil but he is here none the less. Quote
miz3 Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 1. We don't need a devil but he is here none the less. He is the reason we are indwelt with our bent to self and he is the god of this world. His self-love (iniquity) is seen everywhere. Quote: 2. The devil cannot force or coerce you to do anything. It is your "sinful nature" (see Romans) that forces you to do evil. The devil worked through Roman and the Jewish leaders to murder Christ. Yes, our nature leads us to sin, but the devil knows how to tempt and deceive. He is the master manipulator. Quote: 3. My theology is the Doctrine of the Bible as I have demonstrated repeatedly. Your doctrine on God's character is based on ignorance. 1. Satan is NOT the reason we are indwelt with a bent to self. The Bible clearly states that we are indwelt with the "sinful nature" because God by fiat made Adam's sin to dwell within us all even before any human was born. (See again Romans). In other words God Himself made us "sinful" because of what Adam did. God did this even though you and I were not born yet and had not committed sin. God arbitrarily made us to be sin and slaves to the "sinful nature". 2. Satan is not and never has been the "god" of this world. He may be the "god" of sin but satan does not rule this world. The only ruler of this world is God and God has never ever relinquished His Sovereignty. You need to read your Bible more and listen less to sources outside of the Bible as the Word of God. 3. No, it is our human self-love (iniquity) that is seen all over this world. We humans do quite a bit and tend to blame the devil so that he is responsible and then we can calm ourselves that the devil is guilty and we are not guilty. It is nothing more than human guilt avoidance syndrome. "the devil made me do it". 4. The Roman and Jewish leaders needed no help from satan. They hated Jesus Christ without the devil and sought to kill him because Jesus Christ was a threat to their "sinful nature's" power. The whole struggle about "sin" is "who is in control". The devil did not "kill Jesus Christ" humans and their sin driven by the sinful nature killed Jesus Christ. Again, we see "human guilt avoidance" by blaming the devil for the death of Jesus Christ when all along it was/is we humans who did it. That means you and I are guilty and we cannot blame anyone else but ourselves. God says He is in Control (and He is) while the human entity (sinful nature) fights God for this control. Fighting God is a losing battle because God always wins. Humans who remain loyal to their "sinful nature" boss God hates and will burn them and torture them in Hell for challenging God's Sovereignty. Humans who do not rebel but instead submit to God's Sovereignty will have their "natures" changed by God Himself to the "Spiritual Nature" (see Romans chapter eight) which is totally loyal to God. Those who have this "Spiritual Nature" always seek God "with all their heart" to "know God". And thus they are saved because God knows them also. Quote
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