Should Christians Celebrate the Feast days?

[Ron Amnsn]

Thanks Ron for the great reply. Yes, God was the 'king of the Kingdom of Israel' and made the rules and regulations for them. Problem is, Jesus provided testimoney (Matthew 21:43 for one) that the 'house of Israel' has (past tense) become desolate--meaning that God was no longer their King and the Nation or 'kingdom' no longer existed and its regulations and statutes are therefor moot.

Dr. Rich, we've been over this before. You are still misquoting and taking phrases out of context even though you know better. In context Matt 21:43 is not talking about the nation of Israel, but about the chief priests and Pharisees as it says just two verses later.

Matt 23:38 actually says, "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!" and Luke 13:35 actually says "Behold, your house is left to you desolate;" Neither place says it is talking about the 'house of Israel'. It is a reference to the prophecy in Jeremiah 22:1-5 where the "house" that would be desolate is the king of Judah's palace in Jerusalem. Jesus was telling them that the throne of David in Jerusalem would be empty until he returned. In Matt the verse after the one you misquoted says, "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’" In Luke the rest of the verse you misquoted says, "and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’"

If your misinterpretations were correct it would mean that God lied to Jeremiah and other prophets.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

The notion that keeping the feasts that Christ kept would be showing contempt or disrespect for Christ or for his death is a totally man-made tradition without any support in Scripture.

No, it is not at all man made or tradition! You might notice the Temple is missing. God said it would be destroyed and it is. So, keeping the feast days now would be a man made tradition.

[Aliensanctuary]

A quick scan of Ezek 44-48 provides us a description of a massive Temple, the mention of several feasts, the healing spring (River of Life) flowing from the Temple, and the borders and distribution of the land of New Israel. Although the Founding Fathers and Mothers of SDA doctrine believed that the Earth will lie desolate and inhabited only by satanic forces, these passages in Ezek and elsewhere indicate that there will be a Temple during the 1K years, that Israel, along with YHVH, will rule the world, and that as a result, the feasts and regulations of YHVH will be observed by the tiny nation, and perhaps, the rest of the world.

Following the destruction of the Millennial Kingdom and the subsequent restoration, those who are chosen to participate in the Eternal Kingdom can expect to observe the feasts and regulations of YHVH, forever. We might do well to familiarize ourselves with these feasts in order to give us a jump-start in observing them in the future. Of course, today there is no Temple in which to make animal sacrifices or offerings of food for the priests as there will be during the 1K yrs, but we can still accept their inevitability and be willing to play our part.

[Alchemy]

Ron Amnsn wrote;

"Where's the logic in that? That's actually the second time the Temple has been destroyed. The feasts continued after Solomon's Temple was destroyed. In fact Jesus himself kept the feasts after Solomon's temple was destroyed. When God told Israel to keep his feasts he didn't say that they would end when the Temple was destroyed. What you say is just man-made tradition."

Explain to me then how the Day of Atonement was kept after Solomon's Temple was destroyed? This is easy reasoning to follow for those who choose to listen.

Explain to me how the Jews performed all the offerings after Solomon's Temple was destroyed? What did the Jews do with the tithe after Solomon's Temple was destroyed?

The Temple had to be rebuilt for the services to start again! The Temple in Jerusalem has never been rebuilt after 70 A.D.

God clearly demonstrated that these services weren't as important as the Jews made them out to be. Remember, God challenged the Jews to learn what Hosea 6:6 meant. I am challenging you as well.

"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

[BobRyan]

1. Sacrifices and offerings ended at the Cross Heb 10:4-12.

2. But one man observes one of the feast days ABOVE another while another observes them all - in Romans 14 --- so it is "allowed" to observe them but not required.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Even Paul himself observed some if not all of the feast days.

[Ron Amnsn]

Explain to me then how the Day of Atonement was kept after Solomon's Temple was destroyed? This is easy reasoning to follow for those who choose to listen.

Explain to me how the Jews performed all the offerings after Solomon's Temple was destroyed? What did the Jews do with the tithe after Solomon's Temple was destroyed?

The Temple had to be rebuilt for the services to start again! The Temple in Jerusalem has never been rebuilt after 70 A.D.

[Alchemy]

Well Ron, you really don't understand God's word! Jesus used Hosea 6:6 to rebuke the Pharisees for taking the services and feasts too seriously. It never violated God's word, and you have failed to demonstrate it has, to realize the feasts weren't meant to be permanent among God's people.

The anti-typical Day of Atonement is a perfect example, it is impossible for humans to keep that! That "day" has lasted over 160 literal years already! Your points make absolutely no sense!

Acting like you are keeping the feast days today is a man-made tradition of the worse kind! Your explanation of keeping the feasts without a Temple was lame at best.

But, I respect your right to believe whatever you choose.

[Ron Lambert]

Alchemy, the people of ancient Israel were expected by God to take the feasts seriously. Concerning the Day of Atonement (which included the feast of trumpets that preceded it), God declared: "Neither shall you do any work on this same day, for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the Lord your God. If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, HE SHALL BE CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE." (Leviticus 23:28, 29; NKJV)

The Day of Atonement, or Yom Kippur, was considered a day of judgment for ancient israel.

We read similar language concerning the Passover feast (see Numbers 9:13).

But of course the ultimate value of these feasts and ceremonies was in the antitype, or future fulfillment, to which these types pointed. All of them were designed to illustrate to them and us various facets of the Plan of Salvation.

[Ron Amnsn]

Well Ron, you really don't understand God's word! Jesus used Hosea 6:6 to rebuke the Pharisees for taking the services and feasts too seriously. It never violated God's word, and you have failed to demonstrate it has, to realize the feasts weren't meant to be permanent among God's people.

[BobRyan]

Heb 10:4-12 put this whole thing at an end. "He took away the first" set of animal sacrifices and offerings - to establish the "one sacrifice" - "once for all".

in Christ,

Bob

[Lysimachus]

A quick scan of Ezek 44-48 provides us a description of a massive Temple, the mention of several feasts, the healing spring (River of Life) flowing from the Temple, and the borders and distribution of the land of New Israel. Although the Founding Fathers and Mothers of SDA doctrine believed that the Earth will lie desolate and inhabited only by satanic forces, these passages in Ezek and elsewhere indicate that there will be a Temple during the 1K years, that Israel, along with YHVH, will rule the world, and that as a result, the feasts and regulations of YHVH will be observed by the tiny nation, and perhaps, the rest of the world.

Following the destruction of the Millennial Kingdom and the subsequent restoration, those who are chosen to participate in the Eternal Kingdom can expect to observe the feasts and regulations of YHVH, forever. We might do well to familiarize ourselves with these feasts in order to give us a jump-start in observing them in the future. Of course, today there is no Temple in which to make animal sacrifices or offerings of food for the priests as there will be during the 1K yrs, but we can still accept their inevitability and be willing to play our part.

Those prophecies have been redefined by John the Revelator. The so called "Millennium Temple" in Ezekiel is actually a miniature model representation of the Temple that is removed outside of the New Jerusalem and placed on a hill.

This is the "antitypical" realization of the conditional typological settings given in Ezekiel. Those prohpecies mentioned in Ezekiel will no longer pan out in their typological description. But they will pan out antitypically, in the Earth Made New. What Ezekiel is describing is a typological representation of Post-Millennial scenery.

More evidence on this can be found here:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/ezekiels-city-circumference-of-the-earth.htm

and here:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/dispensationalism-israel.htm

Adventist eschatology concerning a desolate earth during the millennium is well vindicated.

[Ron Amnsn]

Heb 10:4-12 put this whole thing at an end. "He took away the first" set of animal sacrifices and offerings - to establish the "one sacrifice" - "once for all".

God's feasts are far more than just offerings and sacrifices. They are an outline (shadow) that serves as an annual reminder, object lesson, and prophecy of the major events of redemption. Much fruitless discussion and speculation about prophecy would be avoided if people lived as much as possible God's appointed feast times each year to learn the prophetic lessons God built into his calendar.

The "first" and "second" in Hebrews 10:9 are referring to the "first and "second" parts of the quotation from Psalm 40 which the author separates and identifies in verses 8 and 9.

In Hebrews 10:9 the Greek verb translated as "takes away" is often translated as "kills" (which might possibly pertain to the killing of sacrifices) but is also translated as "takes up" or "adopts" (which the author could be using to explain why the law specifies that something be done that is not in itself desirable to God.)

It makes sense that sin offerings would not be desirable to God because they occur when someone has sinned. Sin and the resulting death are not desirable. It would be much better to avoid sin followed by offering the sacrifices for sin (the "first" part) by instead doing God's will as Jesus did (the "second" part).

Many people identify the sacrifices for sin that are "not desired" as the OT sacrificial system. But as you pointed out, the death of Jesus was also a sacrifice for sin; which was also not "desirable" to God, in that the death itself was not something God would want to happen if it were not part of a larger important plan.

Just as Jesus did God's will by going through with his own "not desired" sacrifice ("if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me"), the people who offered animal sacrifices at the Temple did God's will by offering the "not desired" sacrifices because those sacrifices too were part of a larger picture.

[BobRyan]

The Lev 23 annual feasts are based on animal sacrifice. Take away the animal sacrifice - and you have no liturgy in that annual feast at all.

Thus they end at the cross with the "once for all" sacrifice just as Daniel predicts in Daniel 9.

Paul does not say in Heb 10 "sin offerings are at an end because all have ceased to sin".

In 1John 2 John says "he is THE atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world".

It is one sacrifice for all time according to Heb 10 and he "takes AWAY the first" in order to establish the second!

in Christ,

Bob

[Lysimachus]

There are many Adventists who try to convince other Adventists that the "Statutes and Judgments" that Ellen White refers to as still being in effect are the same as the "feasts". But we have clear statements from Sister White where she describes exactly what these "statutes" and "judgments" are that we are to keep forever.

What are the Judgments and Statutes?

Quote:

After giving the ten commandments, the Lord more explicitly enlarged upon them, laying down the principles that should be carried out in the practical life. These specifications are called judgments, or statutes, because the magistrates were to give judgment according to them. God did not speak them with an audible voice to the Israelites, but gave them to Moses, who communicated them to the people. In several instances difficult cases had arisen upon which Moses felt incapable of rendering a decision. He had supplicated the Lord to decide them for him. The Lord now gave general statutes that would govern decisions in these particular cases. {2SAT 185.7}

The Lord desired to guard the interests of servants. He commanded the Israelites to be merciful, and to bear in mind that they themselves had been servants. They were directed to be mindful of the rights of their servants. In no case were they to abuse them. In dealing with them they were not to be exacting, as the Egyptian taskmasters had been with them. They were to exercise tenderness and compassion in the treatment of their servants. God desired them to put themselves in the place of the servants, and deal with them as they would wish others to deal with them under the same circumstances. {2SAT 186.1}

Because of poverty, some were sold into bondage by their parents. Others who were sentenced for crimes by the judges were sold into bondage. The Lord specified that even these were not to be held as bondservants for more than seven years. At the end of that time every servant was given his freedom or, if he chose, he was allowed to remain with his master. Thus God guarded the interests of the lowly and the oppressed. Thus He enjoined a noble spirit of generosity, and encouraged all to cultivate a love for liberty, because the Lord had made them free. Anyone who refused liberty when it was his privilege to have it, was marked. This was not a badge of honor to him, but a mark of disgrace. Thus God encouraged the cultivation of a high and noble spirit, rather than a spirit of bondage and slavery. {2SAT 186.2}

God desires Christians to respect the liberty that He has in so marvelous a manner given them. In Christ is vested the ownership of every man. Man should not be another man's property. God has bought mankind. One man's mind, one man's power, should not rule and control another's conscience. In the sight of God wealth and position do not exalt one man above another. Men are free to choose the service of God, to love the Lord, and to keep all His commandments. {2SAT 186.3}

Thus we see that the Judgments and Statutes that Ellen White stated would last "forever", were not feasts, but governing laws to guard the main law--such as how to remedy a wrong that was done, as in making restitution, giving back what had been stolen, or, what must be done with a person who violated a Divine precept.

[Lysimachus]

The Lev 23 annual feasts are based on animal sacrifice. Take away the animal sacrifice - and you have no liturgy in that annual feast at all.

Thus they end at the cross with the "once for all" sacrifice just as Daniel predicts in Daniel 9.

Paul does not say in Heb 10 "sin offerings are at an end because all have ceased to sin".

In 1John 2 John says "he is THE atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world".

It is one sacrifice for all time according to Heb 10 and he "takes AWAY the first" in order to establish the second!

in Christ,

Bob

Well stated Bob. Simple, and to the point. Ron Amnsn makes these things complicated, perplexing the mind. God is not the author of confusion.

We are living in the Antitypical age. Period. Therefore, all festivals that were tied to the Sanctuary, must be realized in connection with the Heavenly Sanctuary--antitypically.

[Ron Amnsn]

Thus we see that the Judgments and Statutes that Ellen White stated would last "forever", were not feasts, but governing laws to guard the main law--such as how to remedy a wrong that was done, as in making restitution, giving back what had been stolen, or, what must be done with a person who violated a Divine precept.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but why does anyone refer to what EGW said on a matter when God himself has already stated how long his Feasts should be celebrated?

Passover/Unleavened Bread: "Now this day will be a memorial to you, and you shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations you are to celebrate it as a permanent ordinance." (Exodus 12:14)

Tabernacles: "You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month." (Lev 23:41)

[ClubV12]

I would refer to Ellen White to clairify what God has said in His word, to help us understand what God means, if she has a comment on a particular verse, commandment or principle.

Why? Simple enough, she to is a prophet, no less, no more, than any prophet who walked the earth. As such she is imminently qualified to comment and expand understanding on the word of God.

[Ron Amnsn]

The Lev 23 annual feasts are based on animal sacrifice. Take away the animal sacrifice - and you have no liturgy in that annual feast at all.

[Ron Amnsn]

Well stated Bob. Simple, and to the point. Ron Amnsn makes these things complicated, perplexing the mind. God is not the author of confusion.

[Ron Amnsn]

Paul does not say in Heb 10 "sin offerings are at an end because all have ceased to sin".

Right. He doesn't even say that "sin offerings are at an end".

Your view of Hebrews 10 is just an interpretation of the passage which has been chosen because it agrees with the man-made traditions that were handed down by the Roman Church. There are other valid interpretations of that passage that agree with the Old Testament.

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament provide us with reliable tests we can use to test teachings and doctrines. Both tests require that a teaching or doctrine be compatible with what is written in the Old Testament. The OT test is found in Isaiah 8:20. The New Testament test is found in Acts 17:10-12 where the Bereans are commended for searching the Old Testament Scriptures to determine whether the things the apostle Paul taught were true. Paul's teachings passed that test, but your interpretation of Hebrews 10 does not pass that test. So it is rather apparent that your interpretation is not the same as what Paul was teaching.

[BobRyan]

He says "TAKES AWAY the first"

3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "" SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

At that point - God is saying that animal sacrifices do not solve the problem - do not get the forgiveness job done because in fact they do not pay the debt for sin that is owed!!

7 "" THEN I SAID, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'''

8 After saying above, "" SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them'' (which are offered according to the Law),

9 then He said, "" BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.'' He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

Here then is your problem not only are the animal sacrifices ended - but the law regarding animal sacrifices comes to an end. That law is "predictive" it predicts that a REAL valid and effective sacrifice (The Messiah dying for the sins of the whole world 1John 2:2) would one day come. This is the point of Col 2 - regarding the "Shadows" of the past that merely "predict" future events. And as Heb 10 has stated those old shadows have no ability at all to forgive sins!

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;

12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

ONE sacrifice for ALL time -- means that all mankind that has the NEED for a sacrifice - forgiveness of sins, paying the debt owed, a substitutionary sacrifice - sin offering - HAS that ONE sacrifice and it is for ALL - for ALL time! Impossible at this point to "invent" a NEED for the "done away with" system that "had no power at all to forgive sins".

At this point the doctrine is so incredibly obvious that the only ones opposing it - are using another doctrine entirely to do so --- "free will". They are arguing that no matter the clarity of the Bible on this "one sacrifice for all time" where God "takes away the first" (laws about sin offerings and sacrifices) to "establish the second" (the ONE sacrifice for ALL time) -- they can still turn a blind eye to scripture and choose as they will. This we do not deny.

1. Question - what denomination does Ron belong to - that still has animal sacrifices?

2. Question - what denomination does Ron belong to - that sends the remains of their animal sacrifices to feed Jewish priests??

3. Question - in Heb 10 Paul says that the purpose of animal sacrifices is to forgive sins "sin offerings" - why did not Paul argue that the real purpose is to "feed Jewish priests" as the only purpose?

4. Question - Daniel 9 says that the Messiah would put a stop to Sacrifices and offerings - where is Ron going with that?

[Lysimachus]

Ron Amnsn,

I did not quote those Ellen White statements for you. I quoted them for Adventists, who accept her inspiration. You have rejected the prophet of the Lord, who has spoken. And thus, you will be judged for rejecting God's prophets.

Those who have refused to be hewed and squared by the prophets will come up to the timing of the plagues, and then realize that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building.

Those "permanent" ordinances you mention still do exist, but as we have shown, they are now realized antitypically. All the feasts we keep, spiritually!

Thus, they are still in effect.

You have committed the fallacy of having Type go back to Type, Local go back to Local, and Literal go back to Literal.

NO!

That's not how it works!

Type transmits to Antitype, Local transmits to Global, and Literal transmits to Spiritual.

You do not offer sacrifices spiritually, then keep the feasts physically. That is inconsistent!

We are still to offer sacrifices.

Ron Amns,

I did not quote those Ellen White statements for you. I quoted them for Adventists, who accept her inspiration. You have rejected the prophet of the Lord, who has spoken. And thus, you will be judged for rejecting God's prophets.

Those who have refused to be hewed and squared by the prophets will come up to the timing of the plagues, and then realize that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building.

Those "permanent" ordinances you mention still do exist, but as we have shown, they are now realized antitypically. All the feasts we keep, spiritually!

Thus, they are still in effect.

You have committed the fallacy of having Type go back to Type, Local go back to Local, and Literal go back to Literal.

NO!

That's not how it works!

Type transmits to Antitype, Local transmits to Global, and Literal transmits to Spiritual.

You do not offer sacrifices spiritually, then keep the feasts physically. That is inconsistent!

We are still to offer sacrifices.

• “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” (Romans 12:1)

  “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Romans 6:6)

  "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:5)

  "And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." (Mark 12:33)

  "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased." (Hebrews 13:15,16)

  "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour." (Ephesians 2:5)

  "But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God." (Philippians 4:18 )

  "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24)

And concerning the sprinkling of blood we find:

• "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:22)

We see this reality also being fulfilled in Hebrews 10 pertaining how the ceremonial services of burnt offerings and sacrifices were abolished, and replaced by spiritual sacrifices in Christ Jesus. Another good example might be that when we “die daily” (1 Cor 15:31)

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Well Ron, you really don't understand God's word! Jesus used Hosea 6:6 to rebuke the Pharisees for taking the services and feasts too seriously. It never violated God's word, and you have failed to demonstrate it has, to realize the feasts weren't meant to be permanent among God's people.

Please show me where Jesus mentioned the feasts within the same context where he used Hosea 6:6. In Matt 9:11-13 Jesus responded to the Pharisees question about eating with tax collectors and sinners. In Matt 12:1-8 Jesus defended his disciples who had been accused of breaking the Sabbath because they broke the man-made traditions that the Pharisees had created, but were innocent according to the Law of Moses.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

The anti-typical Day of Atonement is a perfect example, it is impossible for humans to keep that! That "day" has lasted over 160 literal years already! Your points make absolutely no sense!

I think you're getting man-made doctrines confused with Scripture. The "anti-typical Day of Atonement" that you describe is not one of God's feasts found in God's Word. You're right, nobody could "keep" such a feast for 160 years because on God's annual Day of Atonement work is prohibited. The "anti-typical Day of Atonement" you describe seems to be part of a man-made prophetic interpretation system.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Acting like you are keeping the feast days today is a man-made tradition of the worse kind! Your explanation of keeping the feasts without a Temple was lame at best.

Then by all means refute it. I'm willing to learn, if you can show me in Scripture. I don't see how attempting to be obedient to God's instructions can be construed as "a man made tradition of the worst kind".

There is an old saying; You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I can't make anyone see these things, but to me they are obvious. For instance, Hosea 6:6 could only be taken in context with the sacrificial services. You seem to be trying to separate the feasts from the sanctuary service, am I understanding you correctly?

[Ron Amnsn]

He says "TAKES AWAY the first"