Moderators John317 Posted November 9, 2011 Moderators Posted November 9, 2011 .... du Preez has preached at my church and I've been to his seminars at GYC (you can listen to some here: http://gycweb.org/presenters/ron-du-preez/) and he's on www.audioverse.org..... Dr. Herbert Edgar Douglass (retired religion professor, academic dean, and editor) writes: "Not often do we see a book that is more timely or more remarkably helpful than this latest study by Dr. du Preez. It seems that nothing in the Bible or in the general literature has escaped his attention. With studied graciousness, and with a synoptic sweep of this perennial subject, he gently demonstrates the flaws in the expositions of those who are not careful in checking the original biblical languages. I can't think of any argument for the modern 'feast-day' emphasis that Dr. du Preez has not addressed. This subject is not a mere theological discussion. Emotions run high and deep. This book is as thorough and as gentle as the subject deserves. The footnotes are almost as valuable as the text itself. I strongly urge the reader to read the introductory pages to get the authentic background and passion for the author's reasons for investing his time in preparing this volume." Sounds like an excellent book, definitly well worth reading. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus .... du Preez has preached at my church and I've been to his seminars at GYC (you can listen to some here: http://gycweb.org/presenters/ron-du-preez/) and he's on www.audioverse.org..... Dr. Herbert Edgar Douglass (retired religion professor, academic dean, and editor) writes: "Not often do we see a book that is more timely or more remarkably helpful than this latest study by Dr. du Preez. It seems that nothing in the Bible or in the general literature has escaped his attention. With studied graciousness, and with a synoptic sweep of this perennial subject, he gently demonstrates the flaws in the expositions of those who are not careful in checking the original biblical languages. I can't think of any argument for the modern 'feast-day' emphasis that Dr. du Preez has not addressed. This subject is not a mere theological discussion. Emotions run high and deep. This book is as thorough and as gentle as the subject deserves. The footnotes are almost as valuable as the text itself. I strongly urge the reader to read the introductory pages to get the authentic background and passion for the author's reasons for investing his time in preparing this volume." Sounds like an excellent book, definitly well worth reading. It looks like I made a mistake in the quote. Ron du Preez has never preached in my church. I copied an email from someone else who wrote that, and I accidentally forgot to put it in quotes. That first part should also be in the quote I gave. Came from my friend Andrew in California. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Ron Amnsn Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Yes, I think all SDAs would agree with you on this. The primary reason for the sacrifices was that they all pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Once He died, fulfilling the animal sacrifices, there was no need to offer animals. Thank God you and I don't need to kill a lamb or goat, etc. Jesus' shed blood is enough to cleanse all sinners from their sins without any more sacrifices. Yes, that may have been the primary reason. Scripture doesn't actually tell us if it is the primary reason. God may have other reasons. Scripture doesn't tell us if all the purposes of the sacrifices actually have been fulfilled. The book of Hebrews can be construed to say there should be no more animal sacrifice for sin, but it doesn't deal with the sacrifices that were done for other purposes. We know from the book of Acts that sacrifices continued to be offered at the Temple after Jesus' ascension and that his followers continued to worship at the Temple and take part in the sacrifices, until the Temple was destroyed. The Temple and a functional Levitical priesthood are the only missing elements that prevent the Jews from offering sacrifices. The sacrifices would become a more pressing issue when/if a Temple is rebuilt and the sacrifices resume. Would the followers of Jesus be able to worship and participate in the sacrifices when they visit a rebuilt Temple? Or would doing so be an affront to God, as some people claim?
Members phkrause Posted November 10, 2011 Members Posted November 10, 2011 The Temple and a functional Levitical priesthood are the only missing elements that prevent the Jews from offering sacrifices. The sacrifices would become a more pressing issue when/if a Temple is rebuilt and the sacrifices resume. Would the followers of Jesus be able to worship and participate in the sacrifices when they visit a rebuilt Temple? Or would doing so be an affront to God, as some people claim? And how is that Temple gonna get rebuilt? Someone gonna remove the one that's there?? I don't see that happening. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Lysimachus Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 A new temple may be rebuilt, but it won't be Divine Prophecy. It will be the Devil's counterfeit prophecy. The Middle East is the Devil's counterfeit, prophetic playground. The Devil will allow a 3rd Temple to get rebuilt, I think, just to "deceive, if possible the very elect". The Dispensational world, the world over, will be saying to us "see! we told you so!", and it will feed their desires--God will give them over to strong delusion, so that they may believe a lie. But tidings of the East will trouble the one who will be inhabiting that tabernacle, and well, it won't be pretty. Daniel 11:40-45 suggests that this "tabernacle" will be planted BETWEEN the seas and the glorious Holy Mountain, not ON the mountain as the KJV seems to suggest. NKJV, ESV, NIV, and ASV say "and", not "on". If there is a Third Rebuilt Temple, it will be the Pope erecting it, not some fictitious, single, Antichrist man who is Devil-incarnate. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Ron Amnsn Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 And how is that Temple gonna get rebuilt? Someone gonna remove the one that's there?? I don't see that happening. Life is full of surprises. A hundred years ago SDA's were preaching confidently that Israel would never be a nation again. Around 1948 they stopped preaching that interpretation of Bible prophecy.
ClubV12 Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 I'm studying church history and know a lot about it, still plenty to learn. As I understand it nothing has changed since the church was formed in 1863 in regards to the Jewish people. That the nation of Israel, the Jews, would never again be the chosen people, favored of God, with a message to give to the world. That didn't change in 1948, it's not changed now, the Jewish National fate was sealed in 34 AD.
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Posted November 11, 2011 Life is full of surprises. A hundred years ago SDA's were preaching confidently that Israel would never be a nation again. Around 1948 they stopped preaching that interpretation of Bible prophecy. No, not true. The fact that there's an Israel today is no proof that it's a fulfillment of prophecy. The nation wouldn't exist over there without the military of the United States. I support the Jews and the state of Israel, but I don't believe for a minute that the modern state of Israel is due to God's promises. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Posted November 11, 2011 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Posted November 11, 2011 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: pkrause And how is that Temple gonna get rebuilt? Someone gonna remove the one that's there?? I don't see that happening. Life is full of surprises. A hundred years ago SDA's were preaching confidently that Israel would never be a nation again. Around 1948 they stopped preaching that interpretation of Bible prophecy. They are not a nation. They are a "psuedo-nation". A fake nation, manufactured and put together by the Jesuit Zionist Illuminati. It's called the "straw-man-state-of-Israel", created as a "pawn" in the game, placed on the chess board to create an atmosphere by which to strategically hone in the New World Order. God did not bring together the National Geopolitical State of Israel that you see today. The state you see today was brought together by world powers. Israel is dependent on what these big shots say. Israel is dependent on the weapons America gives them to defend themselves. America and Europe are the ones keeping Israel "alive"---their perfect little robot to keep Islam at bay. These Middle-Eastern prophecies that revolve around Israel are nothing but Satan's "counterfeit" prophecy. They are similar to Bible prophecy, but not the real thing. They are a counterfeit. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Posted November 11, 2011 ... Scripture doesn't actually tell us if it [the death of Christ] is the primary reason [for animal sacrifices]. God may have other reasons. Scripture doesn't tell us if all the purposes of the sacrifices actually have been fulfilled. The book of Hebrews can be construed to say there should be no more animal sacrifice for sin, but it doesn't deal with the sacrifices that were done for other purposes. Can't we assume that if God wanted us to keep offering animal sacrifices after the death of Christ, He would let us know? Or do you believe God would allow 2,000 years to pass without telling us that He wants us to slaughter animals under the New Covenant? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Posted November 11, 2011 Where does one find where Jesus ever said that one must keep the feasts in order to inherent the Kingdom of Heaven? Matthew 19 is a key and so is Rev. 12:17. Both places do not say anything about keeping any feasts in order to be saved. Keeping the feast days is not a salvific issue, but it is something believers can do if they choose to. There can be blessing in observing them, even though it isn't necessary to keep them for one's salvation. Check out: http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post489580 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 Ellen White, the prophet of the Lord, spoke thus concerning the festivals, rites, and ceremonies: Quote: (1 Corinthians 11:23-25.) To Feel the Pulse of Conscience.--In this ordinance [Passover], Christ discharged His disciples from the cares and burdens of the ancient Jewish obligations in rites and ceremonies. These no longer possessed any virtue; for type was meeting antitype in Himself, the authority and foundation of all Jewish ordinances that pointed to Him as the great and only efficacious offering for the sins of the world. He gave this simple ordinance that it might be a special season when He Himself would always be present, to lead all participating in it to feel the pulse of their own conscience, to awaken them to an understanding of the lessons symbolized, to revive their memory, to convict of sin, and to receive their penitential repentance. He would teach them that brother is not to exalt himself above brother, that the dangers of disunion and strife shall be seen and appreciated; for the health and holy activity of the soul are involved. This ordinance does not speak so largely to man's intellectual capacity as to his heart. His moral and spiritual nature needs it. If His disciples had not needed this, it would not have been left for them as Christ's last established ordinance in connection with, and including, the last supper. It was Christ's desire to leave to His disciples an ordinance that would do for them the very thing they needed--that would serve to disentangle them from the rites and ceremonies which they had hitherto engaged in as essential, and which the reception of the gospel made no longer of any force. To continue these rites would be an insult to Jehovah. Eating of the body, and drinking of the blood, of Christ, not merely at the sacramental service, but daily partaking of the bread of life to satisfy the soul's hunger, would be in receiving His Word and doing His will (RH June 14, 1898). {5BC 1139.6} ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Ron Amnsn Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn Life is full of surprises. A hundred years ago SDA's were preaching confidently that Israel would never be a nation again. Around 1948 they stopped preaching that interpretation of Bible prophecy. No, not true. The fact that there's an Israel today is no proof that it's a fulfillment of prophecy. The nation wouldn't exist over there without the military of the United States. I support the Jews and the state of Israel, but I don't believe for a minute that the modern state of Israel is due to God's promises. Which part of what I said was not true? You declared it not true, but then you talked about something different. I didn't say that the existence of a nation of Israel is proof of anything. I just said what I said, and what I said is true. Are you denying the history of what has changed in SDA preaching?
Lysimachus Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 A nations' existence is no proof of prophetic significance. Greece still exists, yet according to the Bible, this power fell. Persia still exists, yet according to the Bible this power fell. Israel as God's nation was not "reestablished" in 1948. Only as a "nation", yes. As God's nation, significant in prophetic understanding? No. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Ron Amnsn Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 They are not a nation. They are a "psuedo-nation". A fake nation, manufactured and put together by the Jesuit Zionist Illuminati. It's called the "straw-man-state-of-Israel", created as a "pawn" in the game, placed on the chess board to create an atmosphere by which to strategically hone in the New World Order. God did not bring together the National Geopolitical State of Israel that you see today. The state you see today was brought together by world powers. Israel is dependent on what these big shots say. Israel is dependent on the weapons America gives them to defend themselves. America and Europe are the ones keeping Israel "alive"---their perfect little robot to keep Islam at bay. These Middle-Eastern prophecies that revolve around Israel are nothing but Satan's "counterfeit" prophecy. They are similar to Bible prophecy, but not the real thing. They are a counterfeit. I don't disagree completely with what you say. The current nation of Israel is a distraction in many ways. The restoration of Israel prophesied in Scripture will be the result of a return to God's ways. That's not what's most visible in the mid-east today. But just because there is a distraction doesn't mean that God isn't also fulfilling his prophecies behind the scenes among the larger people-group of Israelites. It's kinda like Christianity-- much of what is visible is a distraction that is not at all related to what Jesus taught his followers to do. That doesn't mean that God isn't working within Christianity to fulfill his purposes.
ClubV12 Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 What HAS "changed" in SDA preaching Ron? You have suggested the church stopped preaching "something" in 1948 but you have not said what, or more importantly, provided a source other than your rather mysterious opinion. I'm not even sure WHAT that opinion is as it concerns the "SDA preaching". "The restoration of Israel prophesied in Scripture will be the result of a return to God's ways." Actually the restoration of "Israel" will only happen when Gods sets up His new Kingdom on earth. By the time that happens, probation will have closed, the 7 plagues will have ended, earth as we know it, is over. The only restoration of Israel that will have any consequence to earths people will be when the FALSE religion APPARENTLY sets up his Kingdom in that land. How many and where that false religion builds "Temples" won't carry any weight with God or God's people, it will be meaningless.
Lysimachus Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 I don't disagree completely with what you say. The current nation of Israel is a distraction in many ways. The restoration of Israel prophesied in Scripture will be the result of a return to God's ways. That's not what's most visible in the mid-east today. But just because there is a distraction doesn't mean that God isn't also fulfilling his prophecies behind the scenes among the larger people-group of Israelites. It's kinda like Christianity-- much of what is visible is a distraction that is not at all related to what Jesus taught his followers to do. That doesn't mean that God isn't working within Christianity to fulfill his purposes. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Ron Amnsn Posted November 12, 2011 Posted November 12, 2011 What HAS "changed" in SDA preaching Ron? You have suggested the church stopped preaching "something" in 1948 but you have not said what, or more importantly, provided a source other than your rather mysterious opinion. I'm not even sure WHAT that opinion is as it concerns the "SDA preaching".
Ron Amnsn Posted November 12, 2011 Posted November 12, 2011 There is a related quotation from EGW that says "I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up;" (Early Writings pg. 75)
Members phkrause Posted November 12, 2011 Members Posted November 12, 2011 Life is full of surprises. A hundred years ago SDA's were preaching confidently that Israel would never be a nation again. Around 1948 they stopped preaching that interpretation of Bible prophecy. I've never heard that or read that in any literture, books, etc. I went to a Jewish/Adventist church and they never mentioned anything like that. Now I'm not saying that members of the church didn't think that that would happen, but not in the way that your implying. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators LynnDel Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Posted November 12, 2011 Quote: --From a Personal Testimony, January, 1908. {PH114 11} Sorry -- I'm having a brain glitch. What's PH? LD LD
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2011 Posted November 12, 2011 Well Ron what we have here with your statement regarding the church quit preaching "something", it remains unclear exactly what, in 1948 is essentially a "rumor" passed down by a family member. With no supporting documentation. No disrespect to Grandma implied, I was just looking for facts, something of substance, direct evidence. Bless her heart, I'm sure she thought she understood what you think she said, or meant to imply, or something like that.... I've quite familiar with the Early Writings quote, I don't see a connection with that and the churches position changing in some way in 1948 though.
cheddar Posted November 12, 2011 Posted November 12, 2011 Ellen White said that old Jerusalem would never be built up again and in 1948 it was! You don't see a contradiction in that. As to the churches position back then I don't know - others are history experts not me but I bet it looked like they had egg on their face.
Recommended Posts