Life on other planets

[Gerr]

Just butting in. If, as astronomers tell us, there are billions and billions of GALAXIES out there, which means trillions of SUNS which must mean there are trillions of planets, it is not logical for me to believe that a God who created them would make just ONE inhabited planets.

[phkrause]

There is a Bible passage that I have been using for many years to imply that intelligent life does exist on other planets. 12Tribes even quoted part of it, Job 38:7. Let me quote the passage, beginning with verse four (I quote from the NASB, though any translation will give the same sense):

Quote:

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

This is God challenging Job for presumption in his criticism of God. Please note especially verses 4 and 7: "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth....When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

First let us allow the Bible to define "morning stars" and "sons of God."

Stars are frequently used in the Bible to represent angels. Jesus gives this definition of stars in Revelation 1:20: "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." In this verse, angels are also further symbolic of the ministerial leadership--the messengers--of the seven churches.

We also note that Lucifer, whom we understand to be the name of Satan before he became the enemy of God and fell from Heaven, is called a morning star in Isaiah 14:12 (NASB): "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!"

So who were these "morning stars" who "sang together" when God "laid the foundations of the earth"? They must be the angels.

Now then, who were the "sons of God" who "shouted for joy" when God "laid the foundations of the earth"?

We tend to skim over briefly the genealogies in the Bible. But the one in Luke gives us an important definition of terms at its end: "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." (Luke 3:38)

Here Adam is called "the son of God." Using this definition, it implies to us that Job 38:7 must be talking about the angels of God singing, and other Adams on other worlds shouting for joy. Of course, when the foundations of the earth were being laid, Adam did not exist yet. So these other Adams who shouted for joy must live on other planets that had already been created, so they could witness the foundations of the earth being laid.

Now, Hebrew poetry can be characterized by repetition, with a statement being followed by a parallel statement. "Sons of God" could be an alternate way of referring to the angels, if this is the case. However, Hebrew poetry can also present contrasting ideas. That the latter is the case seems to be indicated by the fact that the morning stars do something different--sing together--while the sons of God shout for joy. Shouting is not the same thing as singing. And we do have the fact that the Bible does supply different meanings for these two groups.

So I would suggest that we do have here the idea that other "Adams" on other worlds were the ones who shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were being laid.

That's very interesting Ron. I've never thought about it. But it makes a lot of sense.

[phkrause]

Excellent posts Bob.

[John317]

I would like to know more of what you think on this topic. Do you believe that the only life in all the universe are God, angels, and that which God created on this earth?

I think Gerry made an important point in his post, which I also made earlier:

Quote:

If, as astronomers tell us, there are billions and billions of GALAXIES out there, which means trillions of SUNS which must mean there are trillions of planets, it is not logical for me to believe that a God who created them would make just ONE inhabited planets.

It would be different if the Bible contained anything indicating that this earth is the only planet where intelligent life exists. But as has been shown, the Bible actually contains a number of verses which seem to suggest that the universe is inhabited by other beings besides humans and angels.

[miz3]

Heb 1:1-5 - God made "the worlds" through Jesus Christ.

Job chapter 1 - the "sons of God" come together and meet with God.

"The morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7. {PP 47.1}

Originally Posted By: Klapas

So is Jesus "in charge" of every planet and it's occupants or are there others?

In Colossians 1 and John 1 - Jesus is the maker and sustainer of everything. He is the God of all.

The only planet Satan is claiming -- is this one according to Matt 4 and 2Cor 10.

Daniel 5 speaks of the "Holy Watchers" who "pass judgment" on the king of Babylon.

Daniel 7 describes a great judgment scene in heaven where "myriads and myriads" are in the court room "the court sat and the books were opened" (at a point just before the 2nd coming).

And in Rev 12 "the accuser of the brethren has been cast down to the earth - knowing that he has but a short time" just after the cross.

I'm sorry guys, but these Bible quotations (that you posted) alone do not conclude that life exists outside of Earth. Only when you read EGWs writings can you then read through the Bible and pick verses out of context to support her writings.

I can not find one Christian church that believes that these verses are referring to aliens. Can you?

Earlier you said Only SDAs have a model that is anchored so as not to be deceived by it. If believing in aliens was important to GOD, He would have been a little clearer in His bible. GOD said let us make man in our image, so HE made us. HE did not say let us make another man in our image.

Looks like SDA evangelism has stubbed its toe.

Should have stuck to the Bible and the Bible only as it speaks exactly instead of all the inferring, all the surmising, all the leaping to conclusions, all the lititureizing, all the word play, etc. etc.

SDA cannot get away from their doctrines being sourced and highly influenced by Ellen White while claiming falsely that their doctrines are Bible and Bible only.

[BobRyan]

Excellent posts Bob.

Thank you for the kind words!

This is a great topic.

And pretty easy given all the help we have out there.

[BobRyan]

Only SDAs have a model that is anchored so as not to be deceived by it.

I'm sorry, but the SDAs I know quit their jobs, sold up their nice homes in the city and moved their families to the country, home schooled their kids, lived like hippies and survived on welfare for the last 20 years.

My wife and I homeschooled our kids - until they were ready for College.

Both of them got scholarships to an engineering school. Graduated with engineering degrees in comp sci - Summa Cum Laude.

Of course - good ol' dad did just have to teach them Visusal Basic and Java while in High School to give them a bit of an easier time during their freshman year.

You seem to want to connect this to the fact that SDAs were wayyy out front of the current cosmologists who are just now figuring out that there are other planets out there like earth.

What do you think is that "connection"??

in Christ,

Bob

And vegetarian - so you might want to count that against them.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Heb 1:1-5 - God made "the worlds" through Jesus Christ.

Job chapter 1 - the "sons of God" come together and meet with God.

"The morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7. {PP 47.1}

Originally Posted By: Klapas

So is Jesus "in charge" of every planet and it's occupants or are there others?

In Colossians 1 and John 1 - Jesus is the maker and sustainer of everything. He is the God of all.

The only planet Satan is claiming -- is this one according to Matt 4 and 2Cor 10.

Daniel 5 speaks of the "Holy Watchers" who "pass judgment" on the king of Babylon.

Daniel 7 describes a great judgment scene in heaven where "myriads and myriads" are in the court room "the court sat and the books were opened" (at a point just before the 2nd coming).

And in Rev 12 "the accuser of the brethren has been cast down to the earth - knowing that he has but a short time" just after the cross.

I'm sorry guys, but these Bible quotations (that you posted) alone do not conclude that life exists outside of Earth.

Not even remotely correct on your part.

Job 1 and Daniel 7 are explicit in that regard.

That is not even the debatable part.

You have to at least take the subject seriously.

They slam the door on the frozen "no life beyond earth" argument. The only question they leave open is how many MORE places other than what is described beyond earth in those cases - also has life.

Mankind is unique in all the universe - in that we were made in God's image. Here you actually made a point that holds up to Bible review. That much is true.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

SDA cannot get away from their doctrines being sourced and highly influenced by Ellen White while claiming falsely that their doctrines are Bible and Bible only.

The SDA Church has never denied that our beliefs are influenced by Ellen White. This is expressed clearly in our Fundamental Beliefs concerning the prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White.

What the Church has said is that our Fundamental Beliefs are based on the Bible and on the Bible alone. It doesn't mean that Ellen White played no part in the formation of SDA doctrines or beliefs.

Ellen White played a significant part in the Sabbath Bible Conferences where the foundational pillars of our faith were decided. This has never been a secret but was widely known at the time.

God showed Ellen White many details that are not in the Bible. These details are not necessary to salvation and are not a part of the Church's basic doctrines.

This topic is about some of those details: life on other planets. It is not a salvific issue.

[Ron Lambert]

miz3, it appears to me that you are just being lazy and failing to really look closely at our arguments, when you refer to "the inferring, all the surmising, all the leaping to conclusions, all the lititureizing, all the word play, etc. etc." Are you denying the basic principles of logical reasoning? I used the Bible's own definition of its terms to interpret Job 38:7, and it clearly leads to the conclusions I reached. You may disagree, but you cannot honestly deny that the conclusions are reasonable. Just waving a hand dismissively and falsely characterizing such arguments with untrue generalities does not constitute honest, closely reasoned responses to them. You need to do better if you wish to maintain your position that we SDAs base our teachings on Ellen G. White and not the Bible.

I can tell you that I depart from Ellen G. White's interpretation of Revelation 8-11. I can point to several statements by Sister White where she clearly leaves open the possibility of a last day application of the seven trumpets prophecies, but she does not provide them. I have published a book where I detail what I believe is a strictly Biblical last-day application of the seven trumpets. (Genuine New Light From Revelation and Daniel. Available from Teach Services, Inc., and from Amazon.com.) SOME of us are responsible Bible students who truly do go by the Bible alone to establish every teaching.

[Klapas]

Quote:

If believing in aliens was important to GOD, He would have been a little clearer in His[spoiler bible. GOD said let us make man in our image, so HE made us. HE did not say let us make another man in our image.

[Klapas]

Just butting in. If, as astronomers tell us, there are billions and billions of GALAXIES out there, which means trillions of SUNS which must mean there are trillions of planets, it is not logical for me to believe that a God who created them would make just ONE inhabited planets.

Here we go again.

This is the type of answer I always get from every SDA I know.

God is a loving god.

It wouldn't be fair ..........

If Christ was here he would.......

Don't you think that.......

Billions of galaxies, there must be more than one....

God would have been bored for trillions of years till he made life on earth...

Listen guys. God is not a god of disorder or confusion. The bible is clear.

You sound like the catholic church who use the writings of their saints to prove the evervirginity of Mary. If they ever accept that she could ever have had wild passionate sex with her husband after Christs birth, the whole church would be torn from it's foundations.

What would happen if EGW was ever proven wrong? (she has but you have the best spin doctors on the job)

[John317]

The reason the Bible doesn't record God's making "another man" is that He didn't. The human race is unique.

Another reason is that the Bible only records what God created during the creation week. God didn't create the other beings during that time, so we shouldn't expect for the Bible to say anything about God creating "another man."

The creation account is concerned only with this earth, not with life on other worlds.

Yet throughout the Bible there are clear indications that this world is not alone in the universe, that there are other living, intelligences "out there."

Quote:

Daniel 7:1-28

[9] As I looked,

thrones were placed,

and the Ancient of days took his seat;

his clothing was white as snow,

and the hair of his head like pure wool;

his throne was fiery flames;

its wheels were burning fire.

[10] A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

... [13] I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven

there came one like a son of man,

and he came to the Ancient of Days

and was presented before him.

[14] And to him was given dominion

and glory and a kingdom,

that all peoples, nations, and languages

should serve him;

his dominion is an everlasting dominion,

which shall not pass away,

and his kingdom one

that shall not be destroyed.

Quote:

1 Cor. 4:9 "...We have been made a spectacle [Gk theatros, 'theater'] to the whole universe [Gk kosmos], to angels as well as men."

NOTE: The above verses indicate that what is happening on this world is like a lesson book for the entire universe to learn about sin and its tragic results. They are interested to see how God deals with rebellion in His universe.

[John317]

Listen guys. God is not a god of disorder or confusion. The bible is clear.

Yes, of course, God is a God of order, and yes, the Bible is clear.

However, despite the Bible's clarity, there are many who don't understand it or even believe it.

Don't you agree that in order to understand the Bible, students of the Word need the guidance of the same Holy Spirit who inspired the prophets to write it?

The Bible itself teaches that we must dig for truth as we dig for silver. All the truth of the Bible is not on the surface, available for superficial readers.

[John317]

What would happen if EGW was ever proven wrong? (she has but you have the best spin doctors on the job)

Who are the spin doctors? Which books about Ellen White have you read?

I think the spin is on the side of those who are out to attack Ellen White rather than the other way around.

Can you give an example of "spin"?

As far as Ellen White being "proven wrong" is concerned, it depends on what kinds of things you're referring to. Ellen White never claimed that she never made any mistakes. Even Paul and Peter and John and James made mistakes, right?

It seems to me that your topic, which started out with your claiming you wanted to know what SDAs believe about life on other planets, was actually a way of attacking Ellen White. You appear to be far more knowledgeable about anti-SDA propaganda than you let on in your first few posts. But that is OK. I'm personally glad you came on the Forum, and I hope we see more of your posts. This is a good place to be for study and discussion of the Bible and of the Spirit of prophecy. So I extend a sincere "welcome aboard."

I especially like what you said about knowing Greek. That's exciting. I enjoy talking about it.

What Greek Bible (New Testament?) do you use? Modern Greek or koine?

[John317]

@ Klapas - check your message box

Interesting.

Would love to know your thoughts on this topic, abelisle.

Do you believe there is life on other planets in the universe?

[John317]

You said you are Greek. I'm interested in Greece and in the Greek language. Do you happen to live in Greece, or did live there?

I notice your posts don't indicate your location.

I myself live in Southern California, near Loma Linda. Heard of it?

[miz3]

miz3, it appears to me that you are just being lazy and failing to really look closely at our arguments, when you refer to "the inferring, all the surmising, all the leaping to conclusions, all the lititureizing, all the word play, etc. etc." Are you denying the basic principles of logical reasoning? I used the Bible's own definition of its terms to interpret Job 38:7, and it clearly leads to the conclusions I reached. You may disagree, but you cannot honestly deny that the conclusions are reasonable. Just waving a hand dismissively and falsely characterizing such arguments with untrue generalities does not constitute honest, closely reasoned responses to them. You need to do better if you wish to maintain your position that we SDAs base our teachings on Ellen G. White and not the Bible.

I can tell you that I depart from Ellen G. White's interpretation of Revelation 8-11. I can point to several statements by Sister White where she clearly leaves open the possibility of a last day application of the seven trumpets prophecies, but she does not provide them. I have published a book where I detail what I believe is a strictly Biblical last-day application of the seven trumpets. (Genuine New Light From Revelation and Daniel. Available from Teach Services, Inc., and from Amazon.com.) SOME of us are responsible Bible students who truly do go by the Bible alone to establish every teaching.

You just stretch things beyond there reasonable stretchyness. Just be simple and direct like the Bible. Stop trying to be too cute. Jesus Christ was simple and direct and the people loved it but His enemies hated it.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

SDA cannot get away from their doctrines being sourced and highly influenced by Ellen White while claiming falsely that their doctrines are Bible and Bible only.

The SDA Church has never denied that our beliefs are influenced by Ellen White. This is expressed clearly in our Fundamental Beliefs concerning the prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White.

What the Church has said is that our Fundamental Beliefs are based on the Bible and on the Bible alone. It doesn't mean that Ellen White played no part in the formation of SDA doctrines or beliefs.

Ellen White played a significant part in the Sabbath Bible Conferences where the foundational pillars of our faith were decided. This has never been a secret but was widely known at the time.

God showed Ellen White many details that are not in the Bible. These details are not necessary to salvation and are not a part of the Church's basic doctrines.

This topic is about some of those details: life on other planets. It is not a salvific issue.

It is that Red Bold statement that is the problem. All the fancy schmancy dancing does not erase this statement as being false. Such a statement is intended to lead people to believe that you can make the same doctrinal statement even if Ellen White never existed and that is simply not so.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Just butting in. If, as astronomers tell us, there are billions and billions of GALAXIES out there, which means trillions of SUNS which must mean there are trillions of planets, it is not logical for me to believe that a God who created them would make just ONE inhabited planets.

Here we go again.

This is the type of answer I always get from every SDA I know.

God is a loving god.

It wouldn't be fair ..........

If Christ was here he would.......

Don't you think that.......

Billions of galaxies, there must be more than one....

God would have been bored for trillions of years till he made life on earth...

Listen guys. God is not a god of disorder or confusion. The bible is clear.

You sound like the catholic church who use the writings of their saints to prove the evervirginity of Mary. If they ever accept that she could ever have had wild passionate sex with her husband after Christs birth, the whole church would be torn from it's foundations.

What would happen if EGW was ever proven wrong? (she has but you have the best spin doctors on the job)

Your characterization of SDA blundering is correct. However, that does mean flushing the whole business down the toilet. I have seen those SDA phrases and a few more others like you have.

[miz3]

Quote:

If believing in aliens was important to GOD, He would have been a little clearer in His[spoiler bible. GOD said let us make man in our image, so HE made us. HE did not say let us make another man in our image.

Klapas, I think you are right here. This is not a vital issue. However, we all have opinions.

The Bible does not with great clarity state that their are "aliens" as you put it created by God. There are no "DIRECT" Biblical statements to demonstrate that these "aliens" exist.

Having said that can we look at things in the Bible and have an opinion about these "aliens"? The answer is yes of course.

After reading some of the texts already cited (but not all the texts, Daniel seven is out for instance), it is my human opinion, NOT FACT, but again my opinion that God does have creations on other planets (or aliens) as you put it.

That is my opinion. That does not make it so. It also doesn't mean that the Bible is in FACT saying that there are aliens existent.

The ONLY FACT IS the Bible does not actually say one way or the other whether aliens exist or not. Thus, the best we humans can do is have an opinion on the issue. That is all.

Now having established all that concerning the Bible if you want to talk about Ellen White and the issue of aliens that would constitute a whole new and different discussion. However I am only interested in what the Bible says for now.

[John317]

Ton ouranon is singular nutar ...

ton ouranon is accusative, singular, masculine, not "nutar", or neuter.

Thought you said you're Greek. You might be, but it seems strange that you would say ton ouranon is singular neuter.

[BobRyan]

Some of our non-SDA friends have the attitude "Give me the Bible - just not the words found IN the Bible". I find that whole idea a bit of a puzzle - yet they keep going there.

So what benefit is there "according to the Bible" for those who choose not to reject God's prophets?

Quote:

1Cor 14:1 Desire earnestly to Prophesy

1Cor 14:3 Prophecy edifies the church,

1Cor 14:22. Prophecy a sign specifically to believers not unbelievers

Ezek 2:3-7 prophecy given to God’s people “whether they listen or not” – and leaves them without excuse if they reject God’s Word through His prophets.

John 14:6 – Jesus IS the Way the Truth and the Life!

John 8: 32 you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free

When God is rejected in the person of His prophets - what risk to His people?

Quote:

Matt 23:34-35 – God sends prophets – when Israel rejects them – guilty of all the innocent blood since Able.

Ezek 3:17-20 Prophets appointed as watchmen. If God’s people reject His Word through His Prophets – their blood remains on their own head.

1Thess 5:19-20 – quench not the Holy Spirit – despise not prophetic messages from God

Prov 29:18 No vision the people perish

John 15:22 – If I had not come you would have no excuse sin, now no excuse

John 9:41 – if you were blind you would have no sin

2Thess 2:8-10 People of last day perhish who did not receive a love of the truth.

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

So why is it such a "surprise" to some people that "valuable information" is communicated through God's prophets? I understand why agnostics would be surprised by this fact - but why would Christians pretend to be confused about it??

Noah shows up with a new and specific end-time message for mankind in his day. They only benefit who choose to be informed by it.

Moses shows up in Egypt with a last-minute set of directives from God -- they only benefit from Moses' ministry who choose to be informed by it.

John the baptizer shows up with a last-minute set of directives from God - about "that carpenter's son from Nazareth" -- they only benefit from it who choose to be informed by it.

Why is this such a "problem" for certain Christians?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Only when you read EGWs writings can you then read through the Bible and pick verses out of context to support her writings.

I can not find one Christian church that believes that these verses are referring to aliens. Can you?

Earlier you said Only SDAs have a model that is anchored so as not to be deceived by it. If believing in aliens was important to GOD, He would have been a little clearer in His bible. GOD said let us make man in our image, so HE made us. HE did not say let us make another man in our image.

1. Earlier I pointed to Daniel 7 and Job 1 - having clear and unmistakable reference to beings not on this world.

How much of the Bible are you willing to reject to support your "no life beyond earth" mentality?

2. Earlier I pointed out that mankind did not have the "need" to know much beyond that - until these last days - and the end-time deceptions going out. I then gave you examples of national news items speaking to this very point. I show that the BIBLE predicts end-time "signs and wonders" in Rev 13 that come in BEFORE the setting up of the image to the beast and the mark of the beast.

I show that 2Thess 2 predicts that there will be these great signs and wonders that deceive all mankind.

You simply turn a blind eye to the Bible as it warns you of these things - and argue that we need to ignore God when He addresses the issue by sending to the saints - an end-time prophet with special light for those who would not be deceived by events that we SEE coming just by watching the national news! Your "go blindly forth and ignore God's prophets" solution to the end time crisis that comes upon mankind - is not the compelling answer to everything you seem to imagine it to be.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Here we go again.

This is the type of answer I always get from every SDA I know.

So what are your reasons for believing otherwise? If you are looking for Bible answers if there is life in other planets, other posters have already given you the hints provided in Scripture.

Quote:

God is a loving god.

It wouldn't be fair ..........

If Christ was here he would.......

Don't you think that.......

Billions of galaxies, there must be more than one....

God would have been bored for trillions of years till he made life on earth...

Listen guys. God is not a god of disorder or confusion. The bible is clear.

So would a God of order and harmony create a universe of full of galaxies and suns and planets and have only one inhabited? Instead of denigrating what other people think, then tell us what you think.