Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 ...SDA love Ellen White and her writings more than they love the Bible. The proof is in what they quote most often. This is false. The fact that I love Ellen White as a genuine prophet of God and that I quote her does not mean that I love her more than I love God's word, the Bible. Besides, you don't have proof that SDAs as a whole quote Ellen White more often than they quote the Bible. There are good, valid reasons for quoting Ellen White when talking or writing to other SDAs. The main reason is that God raised her up especially as His mouthpiece to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 ....the war has already begun, and we need someone like you now... Wonderful response, Sid. I totally agree. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted November 21, 2011 Members Posted November 21, 2011 Not a fact, it's a theory. There is not a single fundamental belief that requires Ellen White to sustain it. EVERY ONE is supported by the bible and the bible alone. Which is why Adventists are known as a "people of the book", not "people of a prophet". And not only that, if not EGW someone else would've been able to figure this out sooner than later. If we really believe in God we would know that he has his appointed times when things need to be at a certain place. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 .... I appreciate their kindness and appreciation, but to some extent I have earned their friendship ... I don't think my friends here agree with me - but that's OK, I don't need my friends to agree with me. They know me, and trust that I will be honest ....that my search is sincere. I suspect that is some of what is going on... it's not always just about the correctness of propositions. Yes, it isn't about personalities but about truth. We can like and even love someone personally and get along with them while disagreeing over ideas and theology. I think one of the problems that occurs too often on the Forum is that people don't separate the person from the subject being discussed. We should do the same thing here as we do in a class-room where we talk about different points of view and beliefs. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted November 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Leaving aside the question of Ellen White, which I think is just insoluble. Several of the recent posts have been about 'of all the Christian denominations, SDAism is the most doctrinally correct'. I don't actually dispute that. The point is, for me the issue is larger than that. The choices available are not only among different Christian denominations, and the issues are not only the correctness of propositions. The solutions we come up with depend strongly on our framing of the problem. Truth is important
miz3 Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Without Ellen White and her writings a number of SDA Doctrines could never ever be sustained by using the Bible and the Bible only. This is simply just a FACT. Which ones do you think they are? Here is a list: Doctrines number 8, 13, 18, 24 in whole. Doctrines number 2, 4, 7, 9, 10, 12, 25, 28 in part.
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 OK, it sounds like you're again saying that the Bible is not the only revelation of God, or not the only way people can know God. I take it that you want to include all the other religions and their scriptures when it comes to determining truth. You seem dissatisfied with focussing on the Bible as the way to know God's plan and will. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted November 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Yes. Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 So, then, what do you do when there's a contradiction between the Bible and other religions? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 ...SDA love Ellen White and her writings more than they love the Bible. The proof is in what they quote most often. This is false. The fact that I love Ellen White as a genuine prophet of God and that I quote her does not mean that I love her more than I love God's word, the Bible. Besides, you don't have proof that SDAs as a whole quote Ellen White more often than they quote the Bible. There are good, valid reasons for quoting Ellen White when talking or writing to other SDAs. The main reason is that God raised her up especially as His mouthpiece to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I guess John317 you can hide behind the fact that there is no "scientific proof". However, experience within any SDA Church is sufficient proof. Attend most any Sabbath School any Sabbath and most SS quote Ellen White much more than they quote Scripture. If two SDA disagree on a point the "trump card" is always "Mrs. White says.......". This is FACT. Whether you want to recognize it or not is another question. It is clear by SDA behavior that they in general revere Ellen White and what she says over what the Bible says. Yes, John317, SDA used to be known as the people of the Book (the Bible) in the 19th Century. However that has all changed during the 20th and 21st Centuries. We are now known as "people of that prophet Ellen White". Sort of like the Mormans and Joseph Smith. You have that correct. Ellen White is indeed the "mouthpiece" of what SDA believe. It is too bad that it is not the Bible and the Bible only.
Gibs Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 I would like to see this get back to "why am I a former SDA". How many of you have left because of EGW? I didn't leave because of her testimonies. I find her writings the best commentary on the Bible that there is out there to be found. If you need Bible verses to witness, search her writings and the disc is cheap these days and the search is very fast on anything you want some knowledge on. I've already stated my reasons earlier, but like to see others reasons. His Blessings to all His Faithful. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Moderators Bravus Posted November 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 So, then, what do you do when there's a contradiction between the Bible and other religions? I think. I struggle. I work through it. It's not easy, but it's not meant to be. Let me reiterate: Quote: I also believe God created the universe and is immanent and transcendent, within, through and greater than the universe. As such, the universe is one revelation of God: and we are further limiting our understanding of God if we bind our understanding of the universe to our limited understanding of the limited understanding of God portrayed in the Bible. And yes, other faith traditions are also revelations of the nature of God. This, perhaps more than anything else, is the core of my journey: I can no longer accept the claims to exclusivity of Christianity. This is not just an issue with SDAism, and it's why I haven't followed the more usual path of leaving SDAism and moving to another Christian denomination or starting a splinter group. The notion that Christianity is the One True Way is a narrow prejudice that does not survive actually looking beyond our own back yards. Just that imaginative act of thinking 'what would I believe if I'd been born in Addis Ababa or Chenai?' is sufficient to establish that being born Christian is just an accident of geography. Given that all (most?) religions claim exclusivity in the same way, it is clear that none of them is correct about that: there are many paths, there must be. Or there are none. Truth is important
miz3 Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 OK, it sounds like you're again saying that the Bible is not the only revelation of God, or not the only way people can know God. I take it that you want to include all the other religions and their scriptures when it comes to determining truth. You seem dissatisfied with focussing on the Bible as the way to know God's plan and will. Forgive me, I am confused. Is directed at me or at Bravus. I think Bravus but if at me then please tell me.
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Without Ellen White and her writings a number of SDA Doctrines could never ever be sustained by using the Bible and the Bible only. This is simply just a FACT. Originally Posted By: John3:17 Which ones do you think they are? Originally Posted By: miz3 Here is a list: Doctrines number 8, 13, 18, 24 in whole. Doctrines number 2, 4, 7, 9, 10, 12, 25, 28 in part. It would be better if you listed the doctrine, and not merely a number. But in any case, a discussion of this topic would hijack the current topic. #8-- the Great Controversy #13--The Remnant and Its Mission #18--The Gift of Prophecy #24--Christ's Ministry In the Heavenly Sanctuary #2--The Godhead #4--God the Son #7--The Nature of Man #9--The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ #10--The Experience of Salvation #12--The Church #25--The Second Coming of Christ #28--The New Earth John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted November 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Yeah, can I suggest a new thread for the discussion of 'SDA Doctrines that require support from EGW and can't be supported Sola Scriptura', since it's off topic for this thread. Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 OK, it sounds like you're again saying that the Bible is not the only revelation of God, or not the only way people can know God. I take it that you want to include all the other religions and their scriptures when it comes to determining truth. You seem dissatisfied with focussing on the Bible as the way to know God's plan and will. Originally Posted By: miz3 Forgive me, I am confused. Is directed at me or at Bravus. I think Bravus but if at me then please tell me. That was for Bravus. If you check out my posts, I always show the name of the person to whom I'm responding, next to the title of the thread. If you click on it, it will take you to the post I'm answering. So far as I know, you've never said anything to make anyone think you want to include all the other religions in determining truth. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 So, then, what do you do when there's a contradiction between the Bible and other religions? Originally Posted By: Bravus I think. I struggle. I work through it. It's not easy, but it's not meant to be. Are you referring to any specific scriptures? Or specific religious concepts? And do you talk these struggles over with other Christians who have studied the various religions and dealt with the same issues and questions you're stuggling with? You seem to be saying that you are not clear as to whether the Bible is God's revelation to man in any way that is superior to the other scriptures. Does this mean you believe other scriptures may actually be right and the Bible wrong? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Who is Jesus Christ? Do the scriptures of the other religions help in your relationship with Jesus? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted November 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Dude, with the greatest respect, you need to read what I write. I have already clearly said that I believe *all* traditions have some parts that are right and others that are wrong, some that are divine and some that are human. I do not privilege the Bible over all other texts and traditions, but rather 'test the spirits' in *everything*. I've been about as explicit as I can be. Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Dude, with the greatest respect, you need to read what I write. I have already clearly said that I believe *all* traditions have some parts that are right and others that are wrong, some that are divine and some that are human. I have read very carefully what you wrote, Bravus. You made a general statement. Now I am asking you to go into specifics. What parts of the other traditions are true? Are there parts of the Bible that you believe are less true than parts of the other traditions? If so, tell what those parts are. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted November 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Must have missed the bit where I said I'm not interested in playing this game... Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 ...I do not privilege the Bible over all other texts and traditions, but rather 'test the spirits' in *everything*. I've been about as explicit as I can be. Yes, you have been explicit and clear about that. What has your testing of the spirits led you to conclude in terms of the truth of other traditions and texts? Can you give specific examples of how this has been done? What texts and what traditions? What religious concepts/beliefs are you struggling with? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Posted November 21, 2011 Must have missed the bit where I said I'm not interested in playing this game... Why do you say it is playing a game? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
M. T. Cross Posted November 22, 2011 Posted November 22, 2011 OK, it sounds like you're again saying that the Bible is not the only revelation of God, or not the only way people can know God. I take it that you want to include all the other religions and their scriptures when it comes to determining truth. You seem dissatisfied with focussing on the Bible as the way to know God's plan and will. I know this was directed at Bravus, and I can't answer for him, but this is what I have been saying. I think that if there ever was an original "truth" it has been scattered amongst many different belief systems. It takes a great deal of dedication and direction to weed out the bits of truth in them. Many people do not have the time or the desire to do that. Its not really a bad thing, because for most they find the truth they are ready for within one belief system. I personally have not yet found a singular belief system that has ever rung fully true to me.
Overaged Posted November 22, 2011 Posted November 22, 2011 Leaving aside the question of Ellen White, which I think is just insoluble. Several of the recent posts have been about 'of all the Christian denominations, SDAism is the most doctrinally correct'. I don't actually dispute that. The point is, for me the issue is larger than that. The choices available are not only among different Christian denominations, and the issues are not only the correctness of propositions. The solutions we come up with depend strongly on our framing of the problem. I I may interject; I think you are trying to say that what we actually do with being "doctrinally" correct, and how we make that play out in our daily life has a lot to do with the direction others may choose to take in their spiritual journey. It takes courage to be like that in the face of sometimes very strident opposition; yet we must all concede that only God truly knows the heart, and we must trust Him to lead & direct others who are "not one of us" just like we would with ourselves, and our church brethren who are "one of us. "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
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