Why I am a former SDA

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

OK, it sounds like you're again saying that the Bible is not the only revelation of God, or not the only way people can know God. I take it that you want to include all the other religions and their scriptures when it comes to determining truth. You seem dissatisfied with focussing on the Bible as the way to know God's plan and will.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Forgive me, I am confused. Is directed at me or at Bravus. I think Bravus but if at me then please tell me.

That was for Bravus.

If you check out my posts, I always show the name of the person to whom I'm responding, next to the title of the thread. If you click on it, it will take you to the post I'm answering.

So far as I know, you've never said anything to make anyone think you want to include all the other religions in determining truth.

Thanks for the name at title bit. That helps. I didn't know that. Now I do.

Also yes start a new thread about EGW and the 28.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

....I think that if there ever was an original "truth" it has been scattered amongst many different belief systems. It takes a great deal of dedication and direction to weed out the bits of truth in them.

Many people do not have the time or the desire to do that. Its not really a bad thing, because for most they find the truth they are ready for within one belief system. I personally have not yet found a singular belief system that has ever rung fully true to me.[/quote']

I agree with you that all the primary religions of the world contain some truth. For instance, all of them teach some good moral values concerning how to relate to other people. And all of them also address issues having to do with suffering, sin, and the eternal.

What belief system have you found to be ring truest for you personally?

In the past there have been times when I was very attracted to Buddhism and Taoism.

[John317]

I do test spiritual beliefs against their physical-world consequences, it is true.

....I believe in God, but a God that is truly infinite.

....I also believe God created the universe and is immanent and transcendent, within, through and greater than the universe. As such, the universe is one revelation of God: and we are further limiting our understanding of God if we bind our understanding of the universe to our limited understanding of the limited understanding of God portrayed in the Bible.

And yes, other faith traditions are also revelations of the nature of God.

....Given that all (most?) religions claim exclusivity in the same way, it is clear that none of them is correct about that: there are many paths, there must be. Or there are none.

My response is the same as you wrote on post #49452 of the discussion, "Do SDA Doctrines Stand Up Without Ellen G. White":

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post494666

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Hmm, bald assertion don't make it so....

Evidence please!

[Overaged]

What's a "bald assertion?"

[John317]

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: John317

So, then, what do you do when there's a contradiction between the Bible and other religions?

I think. I struggle. I work through it. It's not easy, but it's not meant to be.

Let me reiterate:

Quote:

I also believe God created the universe and is immanent and transcendent, within, through and greater than the universe. As such, the universe is one revelation of God: and we are further limiting our understanding of God if we bind our understanding of the universe to our limited understanding of the limited understanding of God portrayed in the Bible.

And yes, other faith traditions are also revelations of the nature of God. This, perhaps more than anything else, is the core of my journey: I can no longer accept the claims to exclusivity of Christianity. This is not just an issue with SDAism, and it's why I haven't followed the more usual path of leaving SDAism and moving to another Christian denomination or starting a splinter group.

The notion that Christianity is the One True Way is a narrow prejudice that does not survive actually looking beyond our own back yards. Just that imaginative act of thinking 'what would I believe if I'd been born in Addis Ababa or Chenai?' is sufficient to establish that being born Christian is just an accident of geography. Given that all (most?) religions claim exclusivity in the same way, it is clear that none of them is correct about that: there are many paths, there must be. Or there are none.

Do any of the other religions/worldviews have Jesus Christ as their great central argument Bravus?

You say Christianity is "narrow".

Which in effect labels the revelation of Jesus as "narrow".

What is this "broad" example you adhere to that is so wonderful?

Sounds to me like your own "reasoning" is fooling you.

Is there any more a wonderful and beautiful manifestation of God than Jesus Christ?

Jesus is the centre of everything.

It seems you have not understood that in any way shape or form.

If you did, you would not make the comments you have above.

Which are again a re-iteration of many a secular argument.

There is absolutely nothing new in your objections Bravus, nothing at all.

And Jesus Christ meets every one of those objections.

The problems seems to me that you don't know Jesus and you can't "see" Jesus...

If you did, you wouldn't make such statements, you would be lost in the awesome depths of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

But as that is too "narrow" for you and you are inclined to imagine something broader, no wonder Christianity has no hold on you...

Nothing will hold a mind that considers the revelation of Jesus Christ as such a "light" thing.

Nothing except satans devices of course...

If you cannot see Jesus, you need "self" to step out of the way.

Because you are being blinded by poor logic and rationalisations.

[Overaged]

Jesus is the centre of everything.

It seems you have not understood that in any way shape or form. If you did, you would not make the comments you have above. Which are again a re-iteration of many a secular argument.

There is absolutely nothing new in your objections Bravus, nothing at all.

And Jesus Christ meets every one of those objections. The problems seems to me that you don't know Jesus and you can't "see" Jesus...If you did, you wouldn't make such statements, you would be lost in the awesome depths of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

But as that is too "narrow" for you and you are inclined to imagine something broader, no wonder Christianity has no hold on you...Nothing will hold a mind that considers the revelation of Jesus Christ as such a "light" thing. Nothing except satans devices of course...

If you cannot see Jesus, you need "self" to step out of the way.

Because you are being blinded by poor logic and rationalisations.

You have grossly mis-stated Bravus, what he believes,and why. Even a cursory reading of everything he has posted would reveal that. I guess you really "showed" him, didn't you?

[John317]

Do any of the other religions/worldviews have Jesus Christ as their great central argument Bravus?

You say Christianity is "narrow".

Which in effect labels the revelation of Jesus as "narrow".

....Is there any more a wonderful and beautiful manifestation of God than Jesus Christ?

Jesus is the centre of everything.....

Such important points there, Twilight! They are KEY!

You are making the same point that Paul did in the following verses:

Col. 2:8-10

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. [9] For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, [10] and you are complete in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Col. 1:13-17

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, [14] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

[15] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [16] For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [17] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

1 John 5:11-12

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

NOTE: If the above verses are true, and if we acknowledge them to be true, why would we need other religions and other "scriptures" to teach us the truth about God or help us in our walk with Christ?

I used to read and study the Buddhist, Hindu, and Taoist scriptures, but since I accept Christ into my life and know that He is God and shows me exactly what God is like, I feel no more need of those other writings. They can't add anything to what God has shown me in His only Son, nor can they teach me anything about my relationship with Christ.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Jesus is the centre of everything.

It seems you have not understood that in any way shape or form. If you did, you would not make the comments you have above. Which are again a re-iteration of many a secular argument.

There is absolutely nothing new in your objections Bravus, nothing at all.

And Jesus Christ meets every one of those objections. The problems seems to me that you don't know Jesus and you can't "see" Jesus...If you did, you wouldn't make such statements, you would be lost in the awesome depths of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

But as that is too "narrow" for you and you are inclined to imagine something broader, no wonder Christianity has no hold on you...Nothing will hold a mind that considers the revelation of Jesus Christ as such a "light" thing. Nothing except satans devices of course...

If you cannot see Jesus, you need "self" to step out of the way.

Because you are being blinded by poor logic and rationalisations.

You have grossly mis-stated Bravus, what he believes,and why. Even a cursory reading of everything he has posted would reveal that. I guess you really "showed" him, didn't you?

Do not let your friendship blind you to the obvious in Bravus' posts.

Without Christ as centre to our beliefs, every other belief becomes valid.

And if Christ isn't centre, the Bible is just another book.

The veracity of the Bible and Jesus Christ cannot be seperated.

Bravus is arguing that the Bible is limited as a revelation.

Again, see beyond the person to the underlying arguments here.

Then you might understand my posts.

[John317]

You have grossly mis-stated Bravus, what he believes,and why. Even a cursory reading of everything he has posted would reveal that.

Can you show this?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Do any of the other religions/worldviews have Jesus Christ as their great central argument Bravus?

You say Christianity is "narrow".

Which in effect labels the revelation of Jesus as "narrow".

....Is there any more a wonderful and beautiful manifestation of God than Jesus Christ?

Jesus is the centre of everything.....

Such important points there, Twilight! They are KEY!

You are making the same point that Paul did in the following verses:

Col. 2:8-10

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. [9] For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, [10] and you are complete in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Col. 1:13-17

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, [14] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

[15] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [16] For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [17] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

1 John 5:11-12

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

NOTE: If the above verses are true, and if we acknowledge them to be true, why would we need other religions and other "scriptures" to teach us the truth about God or help us in our walk with Christ?

And this is the central flaw in the reasoning and arguments Bravus presents.

The whole purpose of the Bible is to present the "revelation" of Jesus Christ.

That is its whole form and function.

So it does not matter how much "truth" other belief systems mix with error.

Jesus is the centre of everything...

And to diminish that by stating Christianity is just another also-ran, is to diminish Jesus Christ.

[Twilight II]

The integrity of Jesus Christ is tied to the integrity of the bible.

Why is it that Satan always attacks the bible?

Simple.

It is the most efficient way to attack Jesus Christ's person.

[Bravus]

Very briefly, and partly to take some heat off my mate Overaged, whose friendship I value highly.

I've said I can no longer believe Christianity's claim to an exclusive hold on truth. I've said that very clearly and plainly.

Hammering me with questions designed to trap me into saying it again makes no sense.

Hammering me with further claims to exclusivity from 'inside' Christianity makes no sense.

You are inside one framework, which is fine for you. I am working across many different frameworks held in dialectical tension.

The kind of 'this is truer than that' comparison of frameworks John317 is asking for is not even a sensible thing to talk about within my worldview.

And because no doubt it will come up, no, I'm not making a claim to be smarter, better educated, more moral, higher than anyone else.

I'm just describing how I personally experience the world.

[Overaged]

The veracity of the Bible and Jesus Christ cannot be seperated.

Bravus is arguing that the Bible is limited as a revelation.

Again, see beyond the person to the underlying arguments here.

Then you might understand my posts.

[BobRyan]

Very briefly, and partly to take some heat off my mate Overaged, whose friendship I value highly.

I've said I can no longer believe Christianity's claim to an exclusive hold on truth. I've said that very clearly and plainly.

Hammering me with questions designed to trap me into saying it again makes no sense.

Hammering me with further claims to exclusivity from 'inside' Christianity makes no sense.

..

I'm just describing how I personally experience the world.

Agreed.

We can all post "how we feel" and no one can effectively refute us arguing that we "do not feel what we claim to feel".

The subject of this thread is your statement about being consistent between your claims and your actual beliefs as well as your giving a list of beliefs/reasons why you take that stand.

As stated many times - I do not question your conclusion that such beliefs are totally not what we find in the voted statement of beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists.

I would argue that the only "go forward" left in this case is to pick one of your statements of belief and offer to discuss it objectively - pro-vs-con.

Apart from that - this thread ends by observing that you reach a reasonable conclusion when you admit on this board that those list of beliefs are not SDA.

You claim you have admitted to this before - but I am not aware of it. Maybe Stan is.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

I would like to see this get back to "why am I a former SDA".

How many of you have left because of EGW? I didn't leave because of her testimonies. I find her writings the best commentary on the Bible that there is out there to be found. If you need Bible verses to witness, search her writings and the disc is cheap these days and the search is very fast on anything you want some knowledge on.

I've already stated my reasons earlier, but like to see others reasons.

His Blessings to all His Faithful.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Leaving because of EGW can go two ways. Leaving because of her testimonies can go two ways.

There are those who leave because of disagreement with or lack of acceptance of her. And there are those who leave because they agree with her and accept her but believe that the Adventist Church no longer does, at least not the same as or to the extent that they do.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: John317

OK, it sounds like you're again saying that the Bible is not the only revelation of God, or not the only way people can know God. I take it that you want to include all the other religions and their scriptures when it comes to determining truth. You seem dissatisfied with focussing on the Bible as the way to know God's plan and will.

I know this was directed at Bravus, and I can't answer for him, but this is what I have been saying.

I think that if there ever was an original "truth" it has been scattered amongst many different belief systems. It takes a great deal of dedication and direction to weed out the bits of truth in them.

Many people do not have the time or the desire to do that. Its not really a bad thing, because for most they find the truth they are ready for within one belief system. I personally have not yet found a singular belief system that has ever rung fully true to me.

Yes, it is about finding the good bits we have in common with the beliefs of people of good will.

[Overaged]

Yes, it is about finding the good bits we have in common with the beliefs of people of good will.

Very true. Here is someone who tells us he is a former Adventist; and yet, by his actions on this board; it is quite obvious that he is trying to reach out in friendship - that there is something good going on here which keeps him coming back - and yet some of us just gotta get all those 'corrections" in before anything else. Hmmm Seems a little out of order to me; but it explains why some people leave the church as fast as they come in.

[Overaged]

[bravus]

I've said I can no longer believe Christianity's claim to an exclusive hold on truth. I've said that very clearly and plainly.

Hammering me with questions designed to trap me into saying it again makes no sense.

Hammering me with further claims to exclusivity from 'inside' Christianity makes no sense.

..

I'm just describing how I personally experience the world.

[ClubV12]

Unity? Friends? Wonderful, a worthy goal.

Principles and truth abandoned or modified to achieve that goal? Does the end justify the means?

We are told the shaking results because of the straight testimony to Laodecia. Many will not hear it or accept it, they will leave the church, as Bravus has done and many others before and after him. There are a 1,000 reasons to do so, the ability to justify ourselves in our decisions cannot be trusted. We must learn the proper path from the bible alone. The heart is deceitfully wicked. No excuse will be acceptable at the judgment, where will be judged by that book and that book only. That is the truth as presented from the bible.

Believing in Jesus Christ is not enough. Believing you can find God in some mythic manner in various religions and belief systems, choosing some good here and there will not work. Working miracles in His name (He says I know you not), giving all you have to the poor, being a kind and honest person is not enough.

There is a way that seems right to man, but it ends in death. When we ask what would Jesus do, is the answer based on what WE think He would? No, it has to be based on what the bible alone says. Not some "good parts" of Buddhism or Hinduism or some heathen creed or belief system that says the "bible contains a lot of truth". The bible contains ALL the truth!!! Believing a part here and there, adding or subtracting to or from it, is to reject salvation.

[Twilight II]

Unity? Friends? Wonderful, a worthy goal.

Principles and truth abandoned or modified to achieve that goal? Does the end justify the means?

We are told the shaking results because of the straight testimony to Laodecia. Many will not hear it or accept it, they will leave the church, as Bravus has done and many others before and after him. There are a 1,000 reasons to do so, the ability to justify ourselves in our decisions cannot be trusted. We must learn the proper path from the bible alone. The heart is deceitfully wicked. No excuse will be acceptable at the judgment, where will be judged by that book and that book only. That is the truth as presented from the bible.

Believing in Jesus Christ is not enough. Believing you can find God in some mythic manner in various religions and belief systems, choosing some good here and there will not work. Working miracles in His name (He says I know you not), giving all you have to the poor, being a kind and honest person is not enough.

There is a way that seems right to man, but it ends in death. When we ask what would Jesus do, is the answer based on what WE think He would? No, it has to be based on what the bible alone says. Not some "good parts" of Buddhism or Hinduism or some heathen creed or belief system that says the "bible contains a lot of truth". The bible contains ALL the truth!!! Believing a part here and there, adding or subtracting to or from it, is to reject salvation.

Exactly.

As I stated before, some here want to hug Bravus into oblivion...

There are some fundamental issues here and through Bravus testimony and decision, the gospels veracity is being attacked.

Some think it a "worthy" cause to defend.

Why is that?

Why must we stand by whilst someone extols secular ideologies and pagan ideologies (all paths lead to truth etc), not saying anything direct?

And watch them as they step along towards their own destruction.

Do we really think that we can turn this person by sympathising with their "blindness" and acting as if that "blindness" is some type of virtue?

Wake up people, this testimony does nothing except discourage others.

We have to remember that we are dealing with someone who has had a lot of light and then left, which also means there are seeds of doubt being sown in others minds.

Keep on with the ecumenical hugging, I am sure it will be a comforting memory in the lake of fire...

Foolishness.

[Woody]

Quote:

Exactly.

As I stated before, some here want to hug Bravus into oblivion...

There are some fundamental issues here and through Bravus testimony and decision, the gospels veracity is being attacked.

Some think it a "worthy" cause to defend.

We have to remember that we are dealing with someone who has had a lot of light and then left.

Keep on with the ecumenical hugging, I am sure it will be a comforting memory in the lake of fire...

I thought I had heard it all - but this kind of elietist intolerance in the name of Chrisianity - takes the cake.

If God was like this - I would spit in His face and run as far away from Him as I could. Praise God HE does not support this kind of thought.

[CoAspen]

Woody,

It is quite obvious that some just don't get it and won't, for some time possibly! I said it before that Bravus 'scares' the do-wop out of some people because he dares to examine his beliefs and talk about them. Is no else on a journey of discovery? Bravus issue is not with God but others 'definitions' of 'christianity', very threatening to some.

EGW, herself, talkled about an 'experiential knowledge' of God, are we afraid of having that?

It's a journey folks!!!! Don't get so uptight!!!

[ClubV12]

Do what and run away as far as you can?

Whoa, brother, think about what you have said against the creator of the Universe. That is truly frightening.

Bravus, sadly, is not on a journey of discovery, he is on a journey of rejection of the great light he has been given.

My neighbor is on a journey of discovery as I see the Lord awakeing her to His love and power she barely understands yet.

[SivartM]

The bible contains ALL the truth!!!

Not even the biblical authors ever claimed that. One anthology, written thousands of years ago in completely different cultures and languages, contains ALL the truth?