Why I am a former SDA

[ClubV12]

Being judgmental and making a reasonable, logical application of Adventist theology are two different things. The church has a responsibility to JUDGE, thats why the church manual has instructions that cover that. Bravus and Emptycross don't qaulify for membership in the Adventist church. They know that, I know, WE all know that. Who are we kidding? Whether they care one way or another about church membership is beside the point. There are certain minimum requirements. I didn't write the book, but I can READ! This is not an "opinion" it's a fact, based on the church manual. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand it. It might make you mad, I can't help you with that, it is what is. That issue is between you and God, not me.

[Gail]

Gail says,

"If a person chooses a life without the Lord that is his/her choice, his/her God-given choice. We need to respect that as much as the choice to come to God."

I said on page one of this thread I respect Bravus' opinion, I wish him the best. Why? Because in MY opinion, based on his testimony, not conjecture or some feeling, this is the only life he's got. Live it up, be happy, because that's it, this is all you get.

Thats my opinion. Those who have known the light and rejected in favor of mysticism and science are living in delusion. Those who have left the church because they got mad at someone, will be without excuse come the judgment.

So,,, ya'll have a good time, because THIS life is as good as it's gonna get for ya.

Now thats MY opinion. Bravus expressed his. I've expressed mine. You can choose which ever one you want, but your a hypocrite if you bash me for mine and praise Bravus for his!!

I'm not bashing you for yours... I think that although your journey is not totally like my personal one, it is similar in some ways. I appreciate where you are coming from.

You came from the outside in, IOW you were converted, which is different from those who grew up in the environment. I understand that. In a real sense you understand the sinfulness of sin in a way that a person nurtured in a church environment sometimes doesn't comprehend. In that way perhaps their journey has a different struggle.

[M. T. Cross]

So Club you truly believe that it is your place, right and responsibility to judge others based on the SDA church manual?

What about the whole Judge not, and let he without sin cast the first stone bits of the Bible?

Let me tell you something about manuals. When I was in music school I took a synthesizer/computer course using a early version of digital recording programs. My teacher was the tour keyboardist for bands like Corey Hart and others. Well I have a thing when it comes to computer language and bits and bytes and processors and all. I can memorize what it says, but it makes no sense to me. So I said buhbye manual and did what made sense to me. I ended up scoring the highest mark in the history of the school in the practical application of the lessons. My teacher said I did things that he had never even thought of and that he was going to use on tour. I also scored the lowest mark in the history of the course in the written technical things. What matters though is that I understood how to use the meaning of what I learned effectively. Manuals are great starting points. But they CAN hamper growth.

[ClubV12]

Gail, I know YOU weren't! But plenty on this thread and everywhere else take a shot at Adventists every chance they get. Gotta run, I got "incoming" from Emptycross I gotta deal with....

Emptycross says,

"So Club you truly believe that it is your place, right and responsibility to judge others based on the SDA church manual?"

If you applied for membership at my local church? Of course! Every member of the church has to make that call. Just like the Lions Club and the Elks Lodge have to make that call. You would not qaulify for Adventist membership, in particular until you resolve the issues for which you were disfellowshiped.

Do I have a right to Judge on THIS forum? Nope, and I'm not. I'm making a reasonable assessement as to whether you qaulify, and Bravus and others for "membership" in the church. You don't, by your own testimony, it's obvious. I don't qaulify to run for President either, and I'm OK with that. I'm not living in delusion over that point or getting all mad at someone because they told me I couldn't run.

I used to have to "Judge" whether a race car driver was qaulified to run in a race. Some people got really mad over my opinion they could not. Didn't change a thing, some folks aint qaulified, it is what it is.

[Gail]

Incoming... my hubby was raised in an Air Force family. He uses that term a LOT

He also watches his six.

[Bravus]

Club membership is a large part of the problem. Take that off the table and a *whole* lot of things in the church would get better.

[ClubV12]

You mean lower the standards of "membership" or remove them entirely?

That wouldn't work out so well on the race track, I assure you. Someone would be likely to literally die as a result. I see church membership in the same serious spirit, remove the standards of what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist and you would literally be promoting death, eternal death in my opinion.

I think we've covered the idea that "membership" is no gaurentee of anything, but still, some might go off on an tangent if that disclaimer isn't included. Kind of like they did when I said the bible is "ALL" truth, which it is. The Koran, on the other hand, is not. The heathen "nine" are irrelevant. The bibles "ten" are the whole truth.

[Bravus]

Don't even have a club.

[ClubV12]

,,,interesting thought, for about a micro second! :)

[M. T. Cross]

If you applied for membership at my local church? Of course! Every member of the church has to make that call. Just like the Lions Club and the Elks Lodge have to make that call. You would not qaulify for Adventist membership, in particular until you resolve the issues for which you were disfellowshiped.

[ClubV12]

Based on the BIBLICAL record, the "nine" are irrelevant compared to the "ten". That is of course my opinion.

I would ask that others respect it, that is the concern around here isn't? Respecting someones opinion.

You have made public, VERY public, the fact that you were disfellowshiped from the Adventist church Emptycross. I have offered my sympathies in that regard. I believe that is the base cause of what appears to me to be your exteme bias in regards to Adventist opinions. You've got an ax to grind, and you been grinding it a lot lately.

[Bravus]

We seem to be going around in circles a bit here: let me try to introduce something else.

Holding different perspectives in a dialectical tension means looking at the world through different worldviews at different times and for different purposes.

I can to some extent (though far from fully because I am not an initiated person and have not spent enough time learning) see the Australian landscape through the eyes of an Aboriginal person. That means that a tree is not simply an example of the general class 'tree'. Nor is it its Latin biological name. Rather, it is a source of medicine or materials for certain purposes. It is also linked with a certain animal totem, and with elements of the landscape. The landscape itself is criss-crossed with 'dreaming tracks' laid down by the Rainbow Serpent in the Dreamtime when the land was being born. The animals started out as people, and are also associated with particular totems. There are Dreaming stories to account for their features.

This way of looking at the world is valuable. If I was lost in the bush, knowing which tree means that if I dig near its roots I'll find water, or which can be used as medicine for a snake bite, could save my life. The dreaming tracks mean that particular tribes are responsible for certain parts of the land, and the fact that they form a network across the whole land, rather than areas with fences around them, means that everyone is together responsible for the whole country. And so on.

I can take on that perspective and use it for the things it does well, but I don't have to decide that the Dreaming story of the creation of the world is True and the Biblical story is False. They perform different tasks and roles in assigning meaning to the world and directing my actions in relation to it.

The Christian worldview is another, and when I quote texts, for example, in the discussions here, I am completely sincere and serious. Because I am talking with people working within a particular tradition it makes sense to talk to them in that language, and also to hold them to internal consistency in the way they work within their own worldview. A worldview has its own rules of logic and interpretation, and valid and invalid ways of applying its key stories.

At other times I use the scientific worldview, and think and act *as though* I were a materialist, since that is what is appropriate to that worldview. The scientific worldview is the one appropriate for judging the veracity of scientific claims, and has its own rules and canons of evidence.

A Buddhist view of the world, and an understanding of the Eightfold Path, the dangers of attachment and so on, can also contribute to a calm and serenity, and an approach to dealing with suffering, that is not offered by other worldviews.

And so on.

And, typically, worldviews are *incommensurable*: the word literally means 'not measurable on the same scale'. The standards applied to judging truth claims within a worldview are appropriate within that worldview, but often do not work 'across' onto other worldviews. Trying to judge the claims of one worldview with the standards of another is a category error that typically leads to nonsense.

That's why I didn't offer the *kind* of evidence John317 was asking for, of an itemised list of where other traditions are right and the Bible wrong. Not because I was unwilling but because I was unable. The Bible is right within its own frame. Judging it by the standards of other frames does not lead to sensible results. But crucially, the same thing applies to judging other worldviews using the Bible.

[M. T. Cross]

Based on the BIBLICAL record, the "nine" are irrelevant compared to the "ten". That is of course my opinion.

I would ask that others respect it, that is the concern around here isn't? Respecting someones opinion.

You have made public, VERY public, the fact that you were disfellowshiped from the Adventist church Emptycross. I have offered my sympathies in that regard. I believe that is the base cause of what appears to me to be your exteme bias in regards to Adventist opinions. You've got an ax to grind, and you been grinding it a lot lately.

To be fair Club, I never brought it up at all until tithing was brought up - by you I believe, correct me if I am wrong on that - in a thread about what it takes to be a "Real Adventist"

As it was taking that thread off topic I started a different thread on it. I was reapeatedly told that I was mistaken about what I know to have happened.In the end it was agreed that it was a topic better dropped. I have not brought it up since. Did it anger me that it happened? Sure did cause I thought it was the very picture of greed.

Do I have an axe to grind? Not at all. I read things, I respond with how I honestly feel about it. I believe that unless someone is rude to me I do it in a fairly polite manner. When I have stepped out of line I immedietly apologize. As I did here.

On that note - I am really done fighting with you sir, cause it just distracts from the thread at hand.

As for the NNV, how can you say that they are irrelevant tafter saying they can all be found in the 10 commandments.

[M. T. Cross]

We seem to be going around in circles a bit here: let me try to introduce something else.

Holding different perspectives in a dialectical tension means looking at the world through different worldviews at different times and for different purposes.

I can to some extent (though far from fully because I am not an initiated person and have not spent enough time learning) see the Australian landscape through the eyes of an Aboriginal person. That means that a tree is not simply an example of the general class 'tree'. Nor is it its Latin biological name. Rather, it is a source of medicine or materials for certain purposes. It is also linked with a certain animal totem, and with elements of the landscape. The landscape itself is criss-crossed with 'dreaming tracks' laid down by the Rainbow Serpent in the Dreamtime when the land was being born. The animals started out as people, and are also associated with particular totems. There are Dreaming stories to account for their features.

This way of looking at the world is valuable. If I was lost in the bush, knowing which tree means that if I dig near its roots I'll find water, or which can be used as medicine for a snake bite, could save my life. The dreaming tracks mean that particular tribes are responsible for certain parts of the land, and the fact that they form a network across the whole land, rather than areas with fences around them, means that everyone is together responsible for the whole country. And so on.

I can take on that perspective and use it for the things it does well, but I don't have to decide that the Dreaming story of the creation of the world is True and the Biblical story is False. They perform different tasks and roles in assigning meaning to the world and directing my actions in relation to it.

The Christian worldview is another, and when I quote texts, for example, in the discussions here, I am completely sincere and serious. Because I am talking with people working within a particular tradition it makes sense to talk to them in that language, and also to hold them to internal consistency in the way they work within their own worldview. A worldview has its own rules of logic and interpretation, and valid and invalid ways of applying its key stories.

At other times I use the scientific worldview, and think and act *as though* I were a materialist, since that is what is appropriate to that worldview. The scientific worldview is the one appropriate for judging the veracity of scientific claims, and has its own rules and canons of evidence.

A Buddhist view of the world, and an understanding of the Eightfold Path, the dangers of attachment and so on, can also contribute to a calm and serenity, and an approach to dealing with suffering, that is not offered by other worldviews.

And so on.

And, typically, worldviews are *incommensurable*: the word literally means 'not measurable on the same scale'. The standards applied to judging truth claims within a worldview are appropriate within that worldview, but often do not work 'across' onto other worldviews. Trying to judge the claims of one worldview with the standards of another is a category error that typically leads to nonsense.

That's why I didn't offer the *kind* of evidence John317 was asking for, of an itemised list of where other traditions are right and the Bible wrong. Not because I was unwilling but because I was unable. The Bible is right within its own frame. Judging it by the standards of other frames does not lead to sensible results. But crucially, the same thing applies to judging other worldviews using the Bible.

Different truths that are all relevent in their own place.

[BobRyan]

I read this thread every day and I am hit with a lot of different feelings.

Respect. I feel this when I read people like Bravus that are not scared to seek truth outside of the walls that are comfortable. You see when you have spent years in a religion - especially one like SDA - it is terrifying. You battle so hard against it...

It is understandable that you as a non-SDA would identify with Bravus leaving the SDA church.

I think we can all see how such a thing could be.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

Ah......I am a member of the SDA church...I can identify with Bravus as well...we are both on a journey.

[BobRyan]

Ah......I am a member of the SDA church...I can identify with Bravus as well...we are both on a journey.

Most likely - the same one.

Which brings up the obvious point that if asked 3 years ago - I am sure Bravus could easily have "identified with" someone posting that they would like to be considered former-SDA for all the reasons he himself listed here.

Again - not really too surprising.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

Do you understand what Christ was all about?

Before you answer, remember what Christ said about His disciples experience with him.

Are you on a journey?

If yes, then that would be no different than Bravus.

The end destination is the same for all us, what we encounter will be and is, different.

Are you attempting to judge what others journey should be?

Have you arrived at your destination?

If you are not on a journey, than what value is your 'religion'?

By the way your post is rather vague as to what you are trying/ attempting to say, want to be more 'clear'?

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I read this thread every day and I am hit with a lot of different feelings.

Respect. I feel this when I read people like Bravus that are not scared to seek truth outside of the walls that are comfortable. You see when you have spent years in a religion - especially one like SDA - it is terrifying. You battle so hard against it...

It is understandable that you as a non-SDA would identify with Bravus leaving the SDA church.

I think we can all see how such a thing could be.

in Christ,

Bob

{deleted}

[BobRyan]

Ahh yes - agreeing disagreeably when possible.

Thanks for that - again.

[ClubV12]

Our journeys will only conclude one of two places, eternal life or eternal death, we won't all arrive at the same place.

Revelation has a message for the church of Laodecia, but I think it applies to those in AND out of the church. It applies to anyone who is "comfortable" with their beliefs. Those who feel they have a connection of sufficient worth with some concept of God and feel no need of a personal Saviour.

As well as those in any church who are going through the motions of Christianity without a genuine conversion experience. They are "comfortable", this is the basic concept of the "emergent church experience". A church/wordly view that says everything is going to be OK. Live and let live, puppy dogs, rainbows, unity, love trump all. This replaces the judgment of God with the emphasis on the mercy of God. The balance is lost. Make no mistake, God says what He means and means what He says. Mercy is MIXED with judgment and He in no way will clear the guilty. None will have an excuse, every knee will bow and God will be vindicated.

A question I must continually ask myself, am I to comfortable with God? Even Ellen White was told she would be in heaven ONLY IF she remained faithful. There was no gaurentee for her or any prophet before her or anyone ever on earth. The Christian battle never ceases, it is a life long endeavor, it IS hard work, it DOES require determination. And yet, His yoke is easy when we fully accept Him, a burden if we are holding something back.

[Overaged]

A certain level of smugness at club membership, I feel.

[Overaged]

Being judgmental and making a reasonable, logical application of Adventist theology are two different things. The church has a responsibility to JUDGE, thats why the church manual has instructions that cover that. Bravus and Emptycross don't qaulify for membership in the Adventist church. They know that, I know, WE all know that. Who are we kidding? Whether they care one way or another about church membership is beside the point. There are certain minimum requirements. I didn't write the book, but I can READ! This is not an "opinion" it's a fact, based on the church manual. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand it. It might make you mad, I can't help you with that, it is what is. That issue is between you and God, not me.

Hey Club; please allow me to tell you a personal little story to explain something.

Earlier this evening I said to my wife: "Well; I think I will jump in the shower now."

She replied, "That SMELLS like a good idea."

[Woody]

Quote:

As i would not go within 20 feet of the local SDA church here, this site is the only way I have to look at Adventist behaviour. I agree that it has changed in some, but wow as for the rest it seems to be as bad as ever.

And I know there are many here that are so glad you ARE here!

AMEN to that.

[Woody]

Club membership is a large part of the problem. Take that off the table and a *whole* lot of things in the church would get better.

Amen to that Bravus