TED on Women in Leadership

[Tom Wetmore]

Not silly at all, just the facts. There is no proof she was ordained because she was not ordained!

When you get some proof, lets see it. So far, you got nothing.

The documents are by no means false or fraudulant. She was indeed issued credentials as an Adventist Minister.

We have left the main topic SO far away, following this red herring trail I'm afraid the thread has been murdered.

Ellen White's status as a prophet has little or nothing to do with whether women should be ordained or not.

No. The red herring is the adamant insistence that someone had to doing the little ceremony of laying on of hands for her to validly be considered ordained. The official action of the General Conference declaring it to be so is enough.

And besides, as she herself said, God himself had already ordained her to the higher office of being His messenger, a prophet. That is who laid hands on her. Human hands doing so was needless and presumptuously redundant, as if man somehow overrules the hand of God.

It is the fundamental policy of the Church that once a person has been ordained to a higher office, there is no need to repeat the ordination service for them ever again. If they have been ordained to an office in one church and transfer to another church and are subsequently are elected to the same or lower office, they do not need to be re-ordained.

A good example is the church where I am a member. There are a number of ordained ministers from the GC, NAD, Columbia Union and Chesapeake Conference that are members there. Many of them accept nomination to being local elders at that church. They do not need to be ordained as local elders since they have already been ordained as a minister.

The same was the case for EGW. This happened in 1884 long after she was well established and recognized as a prophet as ordained by God. There simply was no need for those men to repeat what God had already done.

[ClubV12]

Tom, your confused, let me help.

In order to receive a salary from tithe you need to hold a specific office authorized to be paid from those funds. Not all offices qualify. The office of the "Lords Messenger" isn't listed. Ellen White never claimed to be a prophet because about 200 other people made that claim during her lifetime, so there was no office of the "Prophet". The official Minister document would be presented when necessary to anybody of authority who demanded to see your "credentials". Presenting your credentials for "Prophet" would have been controversial to say the least. As would presenting credentials for "Messenger of the Lord". In contrast credentials for the office of "Minister" was readily recognizable around the world as to it's meaning, then and now. It was and remains the most logical choice for credentials for one representing the church in her capacity.

I won't entertain "conspiracy theories" about forged or altered documents years after her death. Considering the White Estate was formed before her death to care for, assemble and disseminate her work it is a profound leap of faith to suggest they were so "stupid" they would not have caught such an alteration. Frankly the very idea of such an alteration is laughable. It could NOT have happened during her life. It could not have happened AFTER her life because it would have been immediately recognized as an alteration from the original years later.

The biggest notable red flag with ordination is the thousands of pages of detailed information on Ellen Whites life. Even down to the most mundane of details. Book after book by various authors, eye witness testimony, etc. etc. In all those thousands of pages not a single comment, hint, rumor or word concerning her ordination. It just wasn't an issue then, and it is not an issue now. It is highly unlikely Ellen White was ever officially ordained by man at any time in her life.

Concerning church growth, I think that issue is much deeper than leadership, be it by men or women.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

The 1885 document, "ordination" is crossed out.

I assume you are sincere. Please tell me who did this if it is true as you say. And tell me why and when.

Ahhh...

The old "I support Ellen White while I pull her down game"...

Can you prove that it was NOT Ellen White who marked the document ?

[Twilight II]

For the answer we need to consider the rest of the evidence. She herself never claimed to be ordained. We have NO reports of ANY kind by ANYBODY claiming she was ever ordained. Since early on in her experience as a prophet she was accompanied by various individuals who recorded virtually every detail of her life, for the rest of her life. Not a SINGLE WORD, in thousands of pages of documentation about her being ordained. THAT defies logic on a grand scale.

Doesn't matter how logical you are on this.

Those that want womens ordination at any cost, will not see it.

They are driven by their secularised notions of equality in leadership between men and women.

That is their highest principle and they will use any rotten board to shore that desire up...

It is the way of the flesh.

[Twilight II]

The real question needs to include. LEADERSHIP. How are the men doing

This action is not about female ordination.

What we need is vision, too many places have a ZERO growth, and yes those places hAe men for a leader....

Deal with the real issue of leadership.

When headstrong women rule in the church, they are just as much a problem as headstrong men.

Why is it imagined that "women" can do the job any better than men?

The problem with our church, is not womens ordination.

The problem with our church is very few are Born Again and even begin to understand Righteousness by Faith on an experiental level.

That has been the real issue since 1888.

But we think we can fix things by adopting secularised ideologies from the world.

We do not even begin to understand the problem if we think womens ordination is going to fix it...

[Twilight II]

You know, for ME, this is not a "game", I don't have some need to "win" or "loose" this discussion. As with MANY discussions on this forum it is nothing more than a search for truth, sincerely. I want to PROVE all things, hold fast that which is good. Most folks "want" to believe in others so badly they are willing to leave reason and logic at the door and simply believe whatever their friend says. This may be a Christian web site, but it's still the "internet". I don't believe anything I read on the internet without thinking about it first!

I DID believe Ellen White was ordained when this thread started. A reasonable, logical review of the puported evidence fails to "prove" that. I would accept as standard less than "reasonable doubt". I would accept a preponderance of evidence. But there are to many glaring and obvious issues that cannot be resolved.

You have presented the most rationale and balanced position on this thread.

I respect your desire to look at the evidence and find the truth.

I find CA can be very good for challenging ideas, because the "evidence" often leaves a lot to be desired when examined.

Poor counter arguments can often cement a position.

[Twilight II]

why are we worrying about ordination of men or women.....are we to full of ourselves??

Have you ever considered that people reject it because they do not have a plain:

"Thus saith the Lord"

It seems that when someone opposes womens ordination, the immediate response is that they reject it because of some bigotry (as defined by secular ideologies).

Thus side stepping the issue many people actually raise.

Which is that it opposses Gods own mandate, as revealed in the scripture.

So the proponents of womens ordination often want to make it an issue of personal bigotry, rather than a biblical reasoning of Gods will on the matter...

[Bravus]

I'd really like to see that Biblical case well made.

[ClubV12]

So would I Bravus, but I think thats about as clear as Ellen White was on this issue. Verses out of context and/or misinterpreted to support one side or the other, even the same verse might be used for either side!

Grace compared to works as presented in the bible is another good example, that could go either way. On grace vs the law it's REAL easy to use Ellen White writings to sustain works. And yet, in 1888 she noted she had been preaching grace for 50 years! That was a bit of a shocker to me when I first read that as I hadn't seen it that clearly. It opened my eyes to her writings and I began to see them in a different light. She was correct, all her writings ARE filled with the message of grace and DO draw you to Jesus. But you won't see it without eye salve.

Twilight mentioned that perhaps it was Ellen White herself that crossed out the word ordination. An interesting thought, but I suspect it was someone in the "office" myself, as an "official" act. Perhaps Uriah Smith? I suspect the issue was forcefully brought to the attention of the brethren in 1885. Ordination for her or for all women, her status as a prophet. A serious discussion over the issue's. Resulting in the word being stricken out that year. Before 1885 I would guess it was not a burning issue one way or the other. Being resolved in 1885, (perhaps by a "Whew, lets not talk about THAT again") it was simply ignored for the later years.

[Tom Wetmore]

Tom, your confused, let me help.

In order to receive a salary from tithe you need to hold a specific office authorized to be paid from those funds. Not all offices qualify. The office of the "Lords Messenger" isn't listed.

No, let me help you. You are just making stuff up. That is not how the Use of Tithe Policy reads. I am quite familiar with the GC Constitution and Bylaws and the GC Working Policy, having worked at the GC for the past 27 years. I know what it says. So don't try to bluff your way through that. Everyone on the GC payroll is paid from tithe. Tithe can be used to pay for the administration of the Church.

It really wouldn't have mattered what designation was specified on the credential. What was significant back in those days was that an ordained minister was paid more than a licensed minister. But they both were paid from tithe. But only an ordained minster was entitled to receive the larger salary. That is why I have repeatedly said that it would be a fraud to designate EGW as an ordained minister so she could get more money that she was not entitled to receive. If she was in fact not ordained it would have been to rob the sacred tithe. It would be cheating the Lord.

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

In contrast credentials for the office of "Minister" was readily recognizable around the world as to it's meaning, then and now. It was and remains the most logical choice for credentials for one representing the church in her capacity.

But what you seem to not quite understand is that even back in those days they had a Licensed Minister Credential separate and distinct from the Ordained Minister Credential. It would specifically say they were a "Licensed Minister". That also would have been a choice for a credential for anyone representing the Church. Most of the women pastors and evangelists were issued that credential. It was the credential issued to men and women in ministry that were not ordained. But that is not the credential issued to Ellen White from 1884 onward. After a minister was ordained they got a new credential that specifically stated they were an "Ordained Minister". That was the credential issued to Ellen White. You can plainly see that in the unaltered original certificates. That she was not issued merely a licensed minister credential is significant.

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I won't entertain "conspiracy theories" about forged or altered documents years after her death. Considering the White Estate was formed before her death to care for, assemble and disseminate her work it is a profound leap of faith to suggest they were so "stupid" they would not have caught such an alteration. Frankly the very idea of such an alteration is laughable. It could NOT have happened during her life. It could not have happened AFTER her life because it would have been immediately recognized as an alteration from the original years later...

The alterations were made to the original certificate for that one credential. But my point was that any wild-haired conspiracy theory is just as plausible as the convoluted attempts to explain away the obvious evidence that the documents and the official church records provide.

But seriously, that only one of the original certificates was altered by a supposed crossing out of two words leaves a huge question of why the other certificates do not have those words also struck out if EGW was the one to have done it for the supposed reasons suggested. Logic would say that she would have done it to the others as well, or more probable, she would have voiced her concerns more definitively, refused to accept the credential, and had the practice discontinued. But she did none of that. Quite to the contrary, she let it go on for 30 years. Logic is on the side of it wasn't her that put those marks on those certificates. And if it was a "mistake" that needed correction by Uriah Smith, the way to correct it would have been to destroy that credential and reissue one that said what they meant. There was no need to cross out anything. They had the printed licensed minister credential forms they could have used if she was not ordained.

[ClubV12]

"I am quite familiar with the GC Constitution and Bylaws and the GC Working Policy, having worked at the GC for the past 27 years."

The information on tithe and who is eligable to paid from it is readily available to all. You don't need to work there (27 years) or even be an Adventist to get the information. You need to hold a qualifying office. An Adventist lay worker whose primary position is a janitor at Walmart, needs not apply.

With all that impressive sounding background how did you come up with the idea that Lulu Wightman was granted ordination status by the GC after her husbands death? Considering they BOTH left the church and declared Ellen White a false prophet BEFORE his death. Sad to say, such statements do not inspire a lot of confidence in the office workers employed by the GC, Tom. Or many of those who post on this on this forum.

...gotta get a net, this red herring is a slippery one. :)

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Sad to say, such statements do not inspire a lot of confidence in the office workers employed by the GC, Tom.

I little more respect would go a long way on your behalf in matters, expecially when talking to someone with vastly more experience than you in areas you have little knowledge of. Saying or insinuating TW is a lier does little to your credibility.

[Tom Wetmore]

The "qualifying offices" are many and varied. Obviously a lay-worker working for Walmart wouldn't be paid from tithe. Duh!?!? They aren't being paid by the church. But a janitor cleaning the conference office does get paid from tithe. That is considered an part of the administrative expense of the Church.

Yes, I'm glad you reminded me on the Lulu Wightman situation. I was wrong. That she was listed for that year in the list I read separately from her husband lead to my mistaken assumption that he had died. THat was based on the common practice that I was correct about of the joint credential for husband/wife ministry teams such as the Wightmans. It is also correct that she was listed as an ordained minster for that year. Why is unknown. After I posted that I later read that they both lived a long time after that date. The discussion had passed on to other things here on the forum and I forgot to correct that info. So now I stand corrected.

The red herring is yours, so you can hang on to if you like. But my impression is that if you find it slippery, just let go of it.

[ClubV12]

CoAspen, a little respect please.

[Gail]

Thanks for the clarification! It always goes a long way :)

[phkrause]

Woody may I ask where you got these documents? They look very interesting.

[phkrause]

The point is, I think, that given how ambiguous the evidence is, no-one (yes, including me) should be making strong claims in either direction. I don't think anyone is in a position to say definitively, beyond reasonable doubt that she either was or was not ordained. My own view is that on the balance of probabilities (the lesser standard of evidence required in civil cases) she was, but I'm not dogmatic about it.

To some extent I agree with you, ClubV12, that 'was EGW ordained?' is a red herring: she was anomalous.

I personally don't find the texts adduced to forbid women's ordination to be compelling, because they are being pulled out of context. Texts about women not speaking in church are right next to texts about women covering their heads in church, and some want to apply one without the other?

I'm in agreement with Bravus here Club, lets let cooler heads prevail here no need to start making accusations up one side and down the other of anybody here. We know we are all split over this issue. There seems to be just a few of us that are nutratal(sp). For me personally I see no clear proof either way. We do see some documents though that Woody has persented. We need to know where these came from and how did he get them. I have asked and hoping to see a post from him. The other thing that I have to say is, I happen to know Mr. Fagal having worked at FFT. I don't know him as a friend but from all indications he is very much above reproach, however anyone wants to take that, is fine with me. But according to a post I've seen here he did tells that he doesn't believe from all his checking into EGW, she was not ordained and that there was a reason for her getting those credentails, whatever that means.

[ClubV12]

The documents posted here I've seen at other web sites as well, so while they may be a bit hard to find, there available to the general public. If it's an anti-SDA site the 1885 document is usually NOT displayed (the one with the crossed out ordination word).

I'm neutral in regards to this issue in the SAME SENSE that FAGAL is. His position is that there is no definitive evidence to show she was ordained. He also notes there is no definitive evidence to show she was for or against women being ordained. Which is why, in my opinion, I consider Ellen White a "red herring" to the subject of the ordination of women. Theres just nothing there to use for or against it.

Some folks insist she was ordained for various reasons. One to support the current discussion that women should be allowed to be because Sister White was.

It is true other women were issued a Ministers license, but there is no distinctive evidence that shows they were ordained either. There weren't even any specific requirements for who was and wasn't to be ordained until the late 1800's. The dialog concerning "standards" and "requirements" started to take shape around 1885, which could have some bearing on WHY the 1885 document was crossed out and others before and after were not! I think it was around 1887 or so before new standards were put into play.

Some women were issued a Ministers license before these certain standards were applied. In some sense a license put you "on track" toward ordination starting around 1885-1887, as near as I can determine. You could be licensed, but not ordained. This is NOT a deep study for me in any regard, I've already wasted to much time making much ado about nothing over the issue already!

Some anti-SDA websites like to show Ellen White was ordained and then use that to defame the church in some way. I have no burden to answer those websites at all.

Some have surmised she was given a Minister document for traveling purposes to show authority where she might be asked, or herself request to, speak to a church group. Which remains a requirement today, a Minister claiming to be a Minister needs to produce the document if it is called for as proof. It also needs to be current. Others surmise her credentials were tied to salary or reimbursement procedures for expenses.

[ClubV12]

Has you church had a guest speaker for Sabbath lately?

Interesting note in the church manual suggests, strongly, that only currently licensed Ministers should take to the pulpit. Some room is left to the Pastor in making these decisions as to who should speak. Retired Ministers without a current license are also given extra "lee way". But the message is clear, if your not a currently licensed Minister of the Seventh-day Adventist church, you need to be carefully approved before being allowed to speak to the church.

In that regard, Ellen White would have needed some kind of official document when in an area (State or COUNTRY) where she was not known or not well known and wished to address the church. Her credentials may well have been required by a city in an instance of a public meeting, or in an instance of another church (like a Baptist church). The Ministers license carries authority in many places, around the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

The real question needs to include. LEADERSHIP. How are the men doing...

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Why is it imagined that "women" can do the job any better than men?

Maybe one reason is that Ellen White apparently thought so.

Quote:

It was Mary who first preached a risen Jesus; and the refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth now. If there were twenty women where now there is one who would make the saving of souls their cherished work, we should see many more converted to the truth. Zealous and continued diligence in the cause of God would be wholly successful, and would astonish them with its results. - Signs of the Times, September 16, 1886.

Quote:

“The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth…” -- RH, Jan 2, 1879.

"she has a ministerial license and bears many burdens of their church at Napier. She speaks to the people, is intelligent and every way capable." -- Mss 22, 1893.

"It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life." Letter 33, 1879, p. 2.

“…introducing our publications into families,

conversing, and praying with and for them is a good work, AND ONE WHICH WILL EDUCATE MEN AND WOMEN TO DO PASTORAL LABOR." -- RH, April 4, 1882.

"The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created. He determined that His ministers should have a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes.” -- Diary entry March 12, 1891, Ms 23-1891.

"to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls." -- to Brethren Irwin, Evans, Smith and Jones, April 21, 1898, I191a-1898.

"Injustice has been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are recognized by God as being as necessary to the work of ministry as their husbands. The method of paying men-laborers and not their wives, is a plan not after the Lord's order....This arrangement...is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying themselves for the work they should engage in [i.e., ministry]....This question is not for men to settle. The Lord has settled it. You are to do your duty to the women who labor in the gospel.” -- Mss 43a-1898.

"God wants workers who can carry the truth to all classes, high and low, rich and poor. In this work women may act an important part. God grant that those who read these words may put forth earnest efforts to present an open door for consecrated women to enter the field." -- Mss 43a, 1897.

"You are to do your duty to the WOMEN WHO LABOR IN THE GOSPEL, WHOSE WORK TESTIFIES THAT THEY ARE ESSENTIAL TO CARRY THE TRUTH INTO FAMILIES. THEIR WORK IS JUST THE WORK THAT MUST BE DONE. In many respects a woman can impart knowledge to her sisters that a man cannot. The cause would suffer great loss without this kind of labor. AGAIN AND AGAIN THE LORD HAS SHOWN ME THAT WOMEN TEACHERS ARE JUST AS GREATLY NEEDED TO DO THE WORK TO WHICH HE HAS APPOINTED THEM AS ARE MEN." -- Mss 43a-1898.

"There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. THE WAY IS OPEN FOR CONSECRATED WOMEN." -- Mss. 43a, 1898, Evangelism 472.

"All who wish an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to THOSE WHO ARE FITTING THEMSELVES FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, TO BECOME PASTORS TO THE FLOCK OF GOD." -- RH, January 15, 1901.

"If men and women would act as the Lord's helping hand, doing deeds of love and kindness, uplifting the oppressed, rescuing those ready to perish, the glory of the Lord would be their rearguard....Of those who act as his helping hand the Lord says, 'Ye shall be named priests of the Lord; men shall call you the ministers of our God.'" -- Jan 17, 1901, B7-1901.

"Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work, should not be bound down to mechanical employment." -- RH, October 15, 1903.

[Woody]

Woody may I ask where you got these documents? They look very interesting.

I'm sorry pk. I don't honestly remember where I got them. I think some of them were at the EGW estate.

I've seen some of the originals so I have no doubt in their authenticity. All I need to know is that ELLEN WHITE signed them accepted them, carried them and presented them to others. And they clearly stated she was ordained.

Now - either she was a dishonest liar - or she was ordained. I have to much respect for her to believe that she would do something so totally un-necessary as promoting a lie about herself.

Yes, she had need for credentials. But she had no need to carry ordained credentials. Especially if she was not ordained.

Well that's the bottom line for me. Not to mention that from what I read in scripture - women should be ordained. It makes no Biblical sense for them not to.

Just like Jesus winked at slavery - to be sensitive to culture. Jesus and EGW winked at this issue of WO. But NOW - the culture needs and demands WO. There is now no longer a need to be silent.

[phkrause]

Thanks for the info Woody.

[Neil D]

It seems to me that with the signing of the 1913 paper claiming that EGW was an "Ordained Minister" should, chronologically, clear up any misconception of her being an ordained female minister.

It also occurs to me that EGWs ordination was recognized by the GC. IOWs, the GC recognized her divine ordination and issued credentials to the same office. And it occurs to me that a divine ordination supersedes any man made ordination....

And if EGW was ordained, and other females also were issued credentials, what is the problem with allowing female pastors?

[ClubV12]

First we cannot ASSUME the church issued her a Ministers license because she was ordained of God. Nope, she WAS ordained by God for her special work, the church recognized that and accepted her as a "prophet". They did not need to issue her any document to declare the obvious. What is NOT obvious is whether the church physically held an ordination ceremony in conjunction with a Minister license.

There is NO uncontestable "proof" the church EVER ordained ANY woman, not just Ellen White. You might want to rethink WHY Ellen White or any other woman WAS issued a Ministers license, which has nothing to do with the ordination process.

[Woody]

Let me get this right -

You feel that why Ellen White or any other woman WAS issued an Ordained Ministers license, has nothing to do with the ordination process?

To me - to issue someone an ordained minister license which has nothing to do with ordination - would be a fraud.