CoAspen Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 I feel for Adam as well, men that descended from that line are 'ticked' about their station in life and still blame Eve, as if God made one superior to the other. Amazing. I believe men suffer from 'pride' in thinking that God made them to rule over. What was it Christ said about the first being last and last first? All this boasting of being in charge, sounds like a sin to me! Perhaps we should all be thankful that God doesn't just shout down...WILL YOU ALL JUST SHUT UP, I'M IN CHARGE!!!!!! Wouldn't that be a hoot!!
Woody Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 I feel for Adam as well, men that descended from that line are 'ticked' about their station in life and still blame Eve, as if God made one superior to the other. Amazing. I believe men suffer from 'pride' in thinking that God made them to rule over. What was it Christ said about the first being last and last first? All this boasting of being in charge, sounds like a sin to me! Perhaps we should all be thankful that God doesn't just shout down...WILL YOU ALL JUST SHUT UP, I'M IN CHARGE!!!!!! Wouldn't that be a hoot!! Yeah. And if I were God - I would give all those misogynizers the BOOT ....................................................................... May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Neil D Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Didn't He do that on Mt. Sinai...and everyone was shakin' in thier sandels, begging Moses to interceed for them, telling him to go up the mountain...?? I'm just askin'.... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Woody Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 My, what big boots you have! Well --- those misogynizers deserve the biggest one I could find on the internet. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
miz3 Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: CoAspen I feel for Adam as well, men that descended from that line are 'ticked' about their station in life and still blame Eve, as if God made one superior to the other. Amazing. I believe men suffer from 'pride' in thinking that God made them to rule over. What was it Christ said about the first being last and last first? All this boasting of being in charge, sounds like a sin to me! Perhaps we should all be thankful that God doesn't just shout down...WILL YOU ALL JUST SHUT UP, I'M IN CHARGE!!!!!! Wouldn't that be a hoot!! Yeah. And if I were God - I would give all those misogynizers the BOOT ....................................................................... I would love to watch Him do it too!
Woody Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 You know - by being so upset all the time about women - the anti-WO crowd are just giving the women power over them. If they just cooled it and followed scripture - they would be much HAPPIER people. Why be SAD when you can be HAPPY? Following the path of Satan (through tradition in this case) always leads to sadness. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 "How do you see Ordination?" In THIS case in the same way this thread see's it. As a Minister with world wide authority, no matter where they go, they speak for and prepresent the Seventh-day Adventist church. As opposed to an Elder or Deacon at a local church whose authority is applicable only to that local church. Our Assistant Pastor is a women, commissioned by the church. She does a terrific job. BUT, as I've mentioned in this thread already, there is another local church that flat out rejects her Ministry. They will not allow her to speak to their church at all. Now multiply that on a world wide scale. There will be plenty of Adventists churches right here in America that will not follow the directions of the General Conference on ordination of women. They ALREADY reject commissioning of women in that roll! Now consider the myriad of foreign countries and their unique perspective on women in general and Mininsters in particular!!! Tom touched on this earlier: I don't see any way the General Conference could EVER render a decision to allow women ordination on a global scale. I just don't think it can be realistically done, one size does not fit all. It's not a political problem as much as it is a reality check. I really do believe, in spite of the blustering and reasons and evidence being thrown around, in the end, BOTH the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy leave plenty of room for "doubt" on either side of the issue. It is simply NOT clear cut either way and I don't think it ever will be! It's a delima that involves much more than this "simple" issue, it goes to the very heart of how the leadership and constitution of the Church has been established. The ramifications of allowing individual Divisions, Unions and Conferences make decisions of this magnitude independant of the General Conference are incredibly complex. It's easy to say they should do that, but when you start down that road it's not nearly as easy as it sounds. It would have a profound impact on the basic structure of leadership! It COULD undermine some pillars of faith, attack the very foundation and constitution! Primary reason being is the authority an ORDAINED MINISTER carries, it IS a world wide commission, an acknowledgment of God's power to this person. No boundaries can be set on the Lords work, it HAS to be a world wide "commission". But it won't be if a Division does it, if a Conference does it. It will be a limited "ordination", in essense, meaningless as to the original intent of a MINISTERS ordination meaning "no boundaries". In some countries it will be against the law for a woman to be an ordained Minister! In other countries she will simply be rejected immediately. It's a GLOBAL delima without a solution, in my opinion. I think it will be effectively "tabled" for as long as time shall last, thats just my opinion of course.
Twilight II Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 So Miz3, where are the exceptions to the Edict in Eden that you are stating? You state that it was okay for a woman to rule over a man outside of the marriage relationship. If that is the case, why do we find that was NOT the case in the scripture? Why were all the priests in sanctuary strictly male? Why were all the apostles male? Why were the Pastors supposed to be male? Why did Jesus and Paul both follow the order established in Eden? If you cannot deal with this from the scripture, then you have no credibility in this argument. Especially if all you can do is reduce it to secularised labelling and name calling. Why would that make me change my position? ------------------- You will also notice that I did not comment on mans fundamental problem. You could not have read that, because you rushed up a hill of assumptions faster than a steam train...
Twilight II Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 The problem is the wrong direction the characterization of the curse pronounced as being an edict. The notion of the curse being characterized as an "edict" is simply a perverse manifestation of the curse that man will lord it over woman. It is no longer the consequences of sin, but binding law never to be changed. If it is an edict, one would have to conclude it to be the unchangeable law of God that will govern throughout eternity. And it would suggest it as God's ideal. The Genesis account of creation says no it was not. And Jesus confirmed that. It was not the law, but the pronouncement of the sentence for having sinned. Not only would they die, but life would be hard. What happened to the concept of Eden restored? As long as the curse is still experienced Tom, I would imagine that that edict is still in place...
Neil D Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 "How do you see Ordination?" In THIS case in the same way this thread see's it. As a Minister with world wide authority, no matter where they go, they speak for and represent the Seventh-day Adventist church. As opposed to an Elder or Deacon at a local church whose authority is applicable only to that local church. Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Woody Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 The situation is rather simple . Each individual SDA church decides who they want to preach to them. If a church does not wish to have a woman preach - there is no one holding a gun to them stating - you have to allow women to preach. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2011 Moderators Posted December 6, 2011 You apparently cannot read the Scripture for what it actually says. You have to put in all your preconceived biases and assumptions into your interpretation of Scripture. I see this all the time. It is a common problem. Can you give some examples of this in regard to the topic under discussion here? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2011 Moderators Posted December 6, 2011 Her Ministers License issued before 1885 did not have the word ordained crossed out. But the 1885 document DOES have the word crossed out. They didn't have a "Prophets License" so a Ministers license was used. This is true. It is exactly what the Ellen G. White Estate says about it. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2011 Moderators Posted December 6, 2011 Quote: And it occurs to me that a divine ordination supersedes any man made ordination... I agree. Many female pastors have divine ordination to serve. So, why not just admit it? But how do you know that female pastors have divine ordination? Is it because they are great preachers or because they bring people to Christ? God doesn't go against what He inspired the writers of the Bible to say. The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write 1 Cor. 11 & 14 and 1 Timothy 2. Women may be ordained of God to do many different kinds of ministries in the church, but if the NT teaches that women should not be the pastors of the church, would God ordain them to be the pastors? It's possible for women to be ordained of God for various ministries and to mistakenly think that God wants them to serve as the pastor or elder of the church. Before deciding to ordain women as church pastors and elders, the World Church needs to study the Bible's teachings on the topic and make the determination on the basis of Scripture. A thorough study by the church has not yet been done. No change should be made until that's been done. Politics and the demands of society should play no part in what the church decides. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2011 Moderators Posted December 6, 2011 The situation is rather simple . Each individual SDA church decides who they want to preach to them. If a church does not wish to have a woman preach - there is no one holding a gun to them stating - you have to allow women to preach. On such an important doctrinal issue, the World Church must be united and move in concert. If it is right to do, then it is right for the whole church to do. If it is wrong, it is wrong for the entire church. Whatever decision the World Church makes, it must be based on the Bible and on nothing else. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 To say it is politics is arrogance pure and simple. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Quote: Club: "Our Assistant Pastor is a women, commissioned by the church. She does a terrific job. BUT, as I've mentioned in this thread already, there is another local church that flat out rejects her Ministry." This is as it should be. Each person and each individual church rejects one pastor or another. I could give you a list of those pastors whose theories I reject yet they remain supposedly an "ordained" pastor. I would not invite them to MY church. The situation is rather simple . Each individual SDA church decides who they want to preach to them. If a church does not wish to have a woman preach - there is no one holding a gun to them stating - you have to allow women to preach. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2011 Moderators Posted December 6, 2011 ...The only "way of the flesh" I see is "men/males" who are sooooo angry that anyone would even suggest that women/females would be considered for anything a man/male would hold. These angry males are the ones leaning on their "flesh" to continue to be the only dominant ones around and they angrily cite the Bible erroneously as the reason for their "male egotistical stand". This is an invalid argument for several reasons: You are doing here what you do too often-- trying to read people's motives. None of us can read people's motives. It's called "judging" and the Bible commands us not to do it. Remember that there are many people who accuse Paul of having the same motives as you falsely and unfairly accuse "men/males" of having. What you apparently fail to take into account is the fact that many women also oppose the ordination of women to be pastors and elders of local churches. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
CoAspen Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Quote: It's possible for women to be ordained of God for various ministries and to mistakenly think that God wants them to serve as the pastor or elder of the church. That tired refrain, women are mistaken, as usual! I really think men and to some extent, very few, women, persons are mistaken about the call of God. We have, I believe, in all the time spent through out all the threads and topics avoided the 'real' question of why some believe women are to be excluded. The answer, because the Bible says so, is open to debate, whether or not they think it is debateable. Why would the Bible exclude women? Is it an arbitrary decision? God said it, no, but so and so said it? What is our real reason for being against WO?
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2011 Moderators Posted December 6, 2011 It's possible for women to be ordained of God for various ministries and to mistakenly think that God wants them to serve as the pastor or elder of the church. Originally Posted By: CoAspen That tired refrain, women are mistaken, as usual! I really think men and to some extent, very few, women, persons are mistaken about the call of God. The point is that the Bible must be the determining factor, not whether someone thinks they have received a call from God to be a pastor. This applies to the call of God to Ellen White as well as to pastors and teachers. For instance, we judge her writings by the Bible. If her ministry and writings are contrary to the Bible, then we must conclude she was not ordained of God. But yes, the fact is that people are frequently mistaken about a call from God. There are many well-known cases of this in the Bible as well as in modern times. That is why the Bible must always be the standard for deciding whether someone is actually called of God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 CoA - This is a common phrase of misogynizers: Quote: It's possible for women to be ordained of God for various ministries and to mistakenly think that God wants them to serve as the pastor or elder of the church. Totally out a line We as Christians must rely on scripture not what misogynizers have to say. WE are suppose to be a church of the Bible - not old traditions of culture and men. Scripture is clear on this issue. And we as a church must follow scripture. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2011 Moderators Posted December 6, 2011 CoA - This is a common phrase of misogynizers:... We as Christians must rely on scripture not what misogynizers have to say. WE are suppose to be a church of the Bible - not old traditions of culture and men. I'm not a misogynizer and neither was Paul, although he too is often accused of being such. I agree that we are a church of the Bible, and that is why we need to base our decisions on this issue directly on the Bible and not on political/social considerations. I also agree with you that we should not base our practices and doctrines on the traditions of culture and men. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Quote: I'm not a misogynizer and neither was Paul, although he too is often accused of being such. I agree that we are a church of the Bible, and that is why we need to base our decisions on this issue directly on the Bible and not on political/social considerations. I also agree with you that we should not base our practices and doctrines on the traditions of culture and men. Oh - I don't doubt what you say. I'm sure you are not a misogynizer. It's just that you use the same wording at they do. And I am glad to hear you support the use of scripture. That needs to be our only guide on this issue and if we do - then clearly we will ordain women. I've not seen one Biblical quote that contradicts the rest of scripture in supporting WO. We received this tradition of MEN to only have MEN ordained. IT came to use from old cultural traditions that crept into the church. And it is always a battle to get Satanic rituals out of church. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight II Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 I've not seen one Biblical quote that contradicts the rest of scripture in supporting WO. Where does the scripture tell us to ordain Women as the pastors of the Church Woody. Do you have a text?
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