TED on Women in Leadership

[John317]

I find it hard to believe that our prophet and the General conference would be liars.

Our prophet would not be fraudulent by carrying the credentials of an ordained pastor if she was not indeed ordained. I have to much respect for her and the church to believe that theory.

This is a false argument, Woody. The reason it's false is that Ellen White never used that credential in order to do the work of an ordained minister. Nor was she ever called "Pastor White" or "Elder White," but her husband was called by those titles regularly. The entire SDA church knew full well what she was and what God had called her to do, and it wasn't to work as a church pastor. She was a prophet, or "messenger," of God.

Ellen White was certainly "ordained," but she wasn't ordained by the church. No man ever laid hands on her in order to designate her as an authoritative respresentative of the church. She never would have accepted such from any human being.

You may call Ellen White and the GC a liar, but that is a false accusation. A lie means an attempt to decieve, but in this case, it's obvious that there was never any attempt to decieve anyone.

Since you have such high regard for Ellen White, I'm confident that you will give serious consideration to the Ellen G. White Estate's explanation for the credential given to Ellen White.

[Bravus]

Perhaps we do need a different thread in one of the theology-focused forums on the Biblical cases for and against the ordination of women? I know work is being done on this more formally elsewhere, but I have to say the texts used against it are far from convincing to me, just in terms of whether they were ever intended to be used in that way.

How about it? If someone starts such a thread they could link it here.

[Twilight II]

Good idea Bravus.

Then those that support female pastors can help Woody find the text he has lost.

The one that says women should be pastors in the New Testament.

Maybe you could all go around his house and help him look for it?

I reckon the dog ate it.

But that is just a theory...

:-)

[Bravus]

That's a very silly point, and you know it. The concept of ordination in the modern sense didn't even exist at the time.

This question requires serious, thoughtful, prayerful Bible study and thinking, not silly games and oneupmanship on ridiculous grounds.

[Twilight II]

That's a very silly point, and you know it. The concept of ordination in the modern sense didn't even exist at the time.

This question requires serious, thoughtful, prayerful Bible study and thinking, not silly games and oneupmanship on ridiculous grounds.

Why is it a silly point?

You are arguing the issue is "ordination".

When in fact the issue is whether pastors can be female.

Ordination comes after that fact.

You cannot ordain someone who should not be a Pastor in the first place...

So where in the Bible does it say women can be Pastors?

It doesn't.

It only gives men that responsibility.

Now, you can of course prove me wrong with a text showing otherwise...

[Twilight II]

This question requires serious, thoughtful, prayerful Bible study and thinking, not silly games and oneupmanship on ridiculous grounds.

I would say it requires some biblical evidence.

But all I have seen is charges of:

"sexism"

"bigotry"

"chauvanism"

"mysogyny"

I agree totally, lets start having some bible study on this.

With that in mind, maybe you would help Woody find the text that says women should be Pastors?

Because I have looked and I cannot find it...

:-)

[Woody]

Quote:

Because I have looked and I cannot find it..

Keep at it. I will pray for you.

[Woody]

Quote:

This is a false argument, Woody. The reason it's false is that Ellen White never used that credential in order to do the work of an ordained minister. Nor was she ever called "Pastor White" or "Elder White," but her husband was called by those titles regularly. The entire SDA church knew full well what she was and what God had called her to do, and it wasn't to work as a church pastor. She was a prophet, or "messenger," of God.

It should be noted that through out Ellen White's time - ministers were not called pastors - they were called "messengers" the exact title that Ellen White used.

It should be noted that Ellen White was listed among all other ordained ministers. They were not called pastors at that time of our history.

Also - I would consider it a lie if I signed credentials stating I was an ordained minister and I wasn't. I would consider it fraud to carry such credentials or even to accept them year after year.

[John317]

The concept of ordination in the modern sense didn't even exist at the time.

Twilight II asked for texts which teach "that women should be pastors in the New Testament."

That's different from ordination per se. As has been said a number of times already, woman may be ordained for many ministries in the church.

[M. T. Cross]

Good idea Bravus.

Then those that support female pastors can help Woody find the text he has lost.

The one that says women should be pastors in the New Testament.

Maybe you could all go around his house and help him look for it?

I reckon the dog ate it.

But that is just a theory...

:-)

You seem to be a rather bitter unhappy person Twilight. It makes me sad to see you filled with that kind of lack of joy. Especially towards the most beautiful creatures ever created.

[Woody]

Quote:

You seem to be a rather bitter unhappy person Twilight. It makes me sad to see you filled with that kind of lack of joy. Especially towards the most beautiful creatures ever created.

I was sadly thinking the same. :(

[John317]

...

It should be noted that through out Ellen White's time - ministers were not called pastors - they were called "messengers" the exact title that Ellen White used...They were not called pastors at that time of our history.

But they were, Woody.

It's true they were sometimes called "messengers" but they were also called "elder" and "ministers" and, yes, "pastors." It's easy to find evidence in this in the Review and Herald and in the histories of the SDA Church.

The following paragraphs published in 1911 shows that Ellen White herself used the word "pastor" to refer to ministers of the church. They show that Ellen White sometimes used the terms interchangeably:

Quote:

A pastor should mingle freely with the people for whom he labors, that by becoming acquainted with them he may know how to adapt his teaching to their needs. When a minister has preached a sermon, his work has but just begun. There is personal work for him to do. He should visit the people in their homes, talking and praying with them in earnestness and humility. There are families who will never be reached by the truths of God's word unless the stewards of His grace enter their homes and point them to the higher way. But the hearts of those who do this work must throb in unison with the heart of Christ. {AA 363.2}

Quote:

The pastor who fulfills his high commission must give his people faithful instruction on every point of the Christian faith, showing them what they must be and do in order to stand perfect in the day of God. He only who is a faithful teacher of the truth will at the close of his work be able to say with Paul, "I am pure from the blood of all men."

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves," the apostle admonished his brethren, "and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood." If ministers of the gospel were to bear constantly in mind the fact that they are dealing with the purchase of the blood of Christ, they would have a deeper sense of the importance of their work. They are to take heed to themselves and to their flock.{AA 393}

Still don't believe SDAs spoke of men being "pastors" of the churches during Ellen White's time? This next quote should convince you:

Quote:

Not long after receiving this great blessing, I attended a conference meeting at the Christian church, where Elder Brown was pastor.{CET 323}

Notice that the pastors of the church were also called "Elder."

[John317]

Quote:

You seem to be a rather bitter unhappy person Twilight. It makes me sad to see you filled with that kind of lack of joy. Especially towards the most beautiful creatures ever created.

I was sadly thinking the same.

Woody, do you mind if I say some similar things about you? You have no idea whether Twilight is an unhappy person, do you?

Such comments about people have no place on the Forum unless it's OK for everyone to do it. I doubt you would be OK with it. At least many times in the past you objected to such use of language, and you were right to do it.

Where's the Golden Rule here, that of doing to others as we want done to us?

[Tom Wetmore]

The purpose of ordination in the SDA Church is to show the people that the church recognizes the authority of the individual to represent the church. It also tells the people that the church believes the individual being ordained has shown evidence of having been chosen by God to do a certain work in the church.

The real issue, then, is not so much about ordination as it is about appointing people to positions of various types of leadership.

The underlined sentence is wrong. The purpose of ordination is not about authority. It does not recognize or confer authority. And ordination to the gospel ministry is not a recognition of leadership, nor does it make a pastor into a leader.

The simple truth is that it is all about recognizing the call of God to ministry. I have read through a number of times and studied the General Conference Working Policy pertaining to the ministry and specifically ordination. Here are some key excerpts:

Quote:

The setting apart of men for the sacred work of the ministry should be regarded as one of the most vital concerns of the church... n the New Testament the picture is just as clear. The apostle Paul speaks of himself as “a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God” (Rom 1:1)... In the Epistle to the Hebrews we read, “No man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God” (chap 5:4)... The proofs of a man‟s divine call must be clearly evident before the church sets him apart by ordination... “The conversion of sinners and their sanctification through the truth is the strongest proof a minister can have that God has called him to the ministry. The evidence of his apostleship is written upon the hearts of those converted, and is witnessed to by their renewed lives. . . . A minister is greatly strengthened by these seals of his ministry.” [AA p.328] For such work a man must indeed be called of God and give clear evidence of his call...

Ordination of men who have not given clear evidence of their call as soul-saving ministers must be avoided. It will always be true that some men, having been trained for lines of work other than the ministry, in time will give proof of their divine call to this sacred work, and the church, recognizing this proof, will feel called to set them apart by ordination. But such cases are exceptions. Because a man holds a responsible position in the organized work, he is not by this fact alone eligible for ordination...

Ordination must never become simply a reward for faithful service or be considered an opportunity to add title and prestige to an employee. Neither is it an honor to be sought by the individual or his family or friends on his behalf. Such attitudes and tactics seriously minimize the sacredness of the ministry in the eyes of the church...

The ministry is not merely a profession; it is a calling.

As you can see it is not about authority. The proof of the call is souls won to Christ. Of all of the statements in the Policy about the qualification to the ministry and the proof of the calling, there is not a single point that women cannot satisfy. And the women pastors that I know clearly meet all of the qualifications.

[John317]

Yes, ordination of a minister shows the people in the church that the minister is recognized by the church and has the authority to do the work he does for the church.

In other words, the ordination shows to everyone that this man or this woman is not simply taking these responsibilities and duties on by themselves, but the church stands behind them.

That is one reason the ordination service is not done in secret but is done openly for everyone to see.

It's true, though, that ordination doesn't increase a man's authority to speak the truth. That authority can only come from Bible truth itself.

For example, Ellen White's authority to speak the truth was from God, and the ministerial credential did nothing toward her authority to write or speak the truth. However, her credential had the effect of letting people (both inside and outside the church) see that the conferences had recognized her authority to travel from church to church.

[olger]

Makes sense to me.

[John317]

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

You seem to be a rather bitter unhappy person Twilight. It makes me sad to see you filled with that kind of lack of joy. Especially towards the most beautiful creatures ever created.

I was sadly thinking the same.

[Tom Wetmore]

Nowhere in the policy does it associate ordination with authority.

Here is what it actually says:

Quote:

L 40 Ordained to World Church

Workers who are ordained to the gospel ministry are set apart to serve the world Church, primarily as pastors and preachers of the Word, and are subject to the direction of the Church in regard to the type of ministry and their place of service. It should therefore be understood by those accepting ordination and who are engaged in specialized ministries such as administration, teaching, and departmental leadership, that they may be reassigned by the church to pastoral, preaching and evangelistic duties.

It is ordination to serve.

Here is a radical idea. I believe that this particular policy is wrong and unBiblical. It continues to be used as a convenient pretext to avoid actually confronting the real issues. And it is not even reflected in the role and function of the vast majority of ordained pastors who serve their entire career locally within the territory of their original calling. Only a comparatively few are further called to serve in another part of the world. It is similar to the misconception that it is about leadership or authority in the world church or even at the local conference level. The vast majority of pastors do not get called to such leadership roles.

This is just one example of approaching this whole issue from the wrong direction and by starting with the wrong presuppositions. Doing so will lead in the wrong direction and end up with the wrong conclusion because of it.

[John317]

I can tell you the difference. Twilight seems like a very unhappy person to me. That actually makes me sad.

OK, but is that the kind of thing that should be expressed personally and in private rather than during a public exchange?

When people say these kinds of things in public during an exchange, it has the appearance of attempting to use a personal characteristic-- rather than an idea or belief-- in order to win an argument.

I have no doubt that someone's being bitter and unhappy makes you sad, but it doesn't help that person, probably, to make the point for everyone to see.

For one thing, it seems to me best to make sure of your feeling about Twilight by "talking" with him about it in private.

[doug yowell]

Quote:

You seem to be a rather bitter unhappy person Twilight. It makes me sad to see you filled with that kind of lack of joy. Especially towards the most beautiful creatures ever created.

I was sadly thinking the same.

You guys were referring to Ellen White I'm assuming?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I can tell you the difference. Twilight seems like a very unhappy person to me. That actually makes me sad.

OK, but is that the kind of thing that should be expressed personally and in private rather than during a public exchange?

When people say these kinds of things in public during an exchange, it has the appearance of attempting to use a personal characteristic-- rather than an idea or belief-- in order to win an argument.

I have no doubt that someone's being bitter and unhappy makes you sad, but it doesn't help that person, probably, to make the point for everyone to see.

For one thing, it seems to me best to make sure of your feeling about Twilight by "talking" with him about it in private.

Your right.

That really should apply all around though.

[John317]

Nowhere in the policy does it associate ordination with authority.

Here is what it actually says:

Quote:

L 40 Ordained to World Church

Workers who are ordained to the gospel ministry are set apart to serve the world Church, primarily as pastors and preachers of the Word, and are subject to the direction of the Church in regard to the type of ministry and their place of service. It should therefore be understood by those accepting ordination and who are engaged in specialized ministries such as administration, teaching, and departmental leadership, that they may be reassigned by the church to pastoral, preaching and evangelistic duties.

It is ordination to serve.

Tom, your quote makes my point: the ordination shows everyone in the church that the individual works for the church. That is to say, the individual is assigned his work at the direction of the church and he/she is not just doing things on the basis of their private desires.

There's a sense in which a policeman's badge or uniform has a similar purpose: it tells people that this person is not just doing things on their own but is working for the city. His uniform doesn't increase his authority to do everything he feels like doing, but it does show that the person has the authority of the city behind him to perform certain designated functions.

In terms of the ordained pastor, this means that he can do some things that an ordinary member cannot do. For instance, he can determine who preaches the sermon on Sabbath. No one doubts his authority to do that. He can also chair the church board, baptize, etc.

[John317]

Your right.

That really should apply all around though.

I agree, Cross. :-)

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, ordination of a minister shows the people in the church that the minister is recognized by the church and has the authority to do the work he does for the church.

In other words, the ordination shows to everyone that this man or this woman is not simply taking these responsibilities and duties on by themselves, but the church stands behind them.

That is one reason the ordination service is not done in secret but is done openly for everyone to see.

It's true, though, that ordination doesn't increase a man's authority to speak the truth. That authority can only come from Bible truth itself.

For example, Ellen White's authority to speak the truth was from God, and the ministerial credential did nothing toward her authority to write or speak the truth. However, her credential had the effect of letting people (both inside and outside the church) see that the conferences had recognized her authority to travel from church to church.

Actually if you consider closely what you have said it tends to support what I said. The authority at each point you use it is not inherent or attributable to the minister or to ordination. The authority is derivative. It comes from the church. It comes from the Bible. It comes from the truth. It comes from God. The authority is not the minister's.

This is very consistent with the Biblical term and NT church role of diakonos. This term is most often translated as minister and is the role of ministry. The origin of the term was one who serves. But it was not simply a household servant. Such a servant was one who serve someone of significant importance such as a high government official or the king. Such a servant was given respect and responsibility because of who they represented. They represented the authority of who they represented. They had no authority in and of themselves. That they were recognized as special or important was because of who called them into service, the one they served.