TED on Women in Leadership

[Woody]

I'm embarrased by the number of people that fail to grasp the significance of this mistake that Ted made and claim to represent the Adventist church.

I'm still waiting for that verse or quote that says we should deny women ordination Club, have you found it yet?

I have yet to see even ONE quote in context that supports the notion that we should withhold ordination from women as pastors. AND I will repeat my challenge for those who believe in this theory to accomplish.

[Woody]

Quote:

"I'm still waiting for that verse or quote that says we should ordinate women Woody, have you found it yet?"

Club - God 'ordinated' women from the time of creation. And personally I feel they are most well ordinated. God did an excellent job.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Now just to clarify something.

Their are two fundamental problems in men and women.

1. Men do not love the wives the way they should.

2. Women struggle to submit to their husbands.

Both of these issues sprang up in Eden.

Both of these issues need dealing with in any Christian home.

But the husband as the head of the home has to take the lead and has to make it a priority to rectify his sin.

When he does, the woman will often trust the husband more and be willing to be subject to his God ordained leadership.

Now some will deride this because it does not fit into the modern secular ideology of equal partnership.

But equal partnership has never been biblical.

The husband has always been expected to lead by love and by sacrifice...

That is Gods order of things.

What I fear is happening to the church is that men and women have grown up in a secular society and cannot see the belief systems that are subtly altering their mindsets.

They end up drifting away from Gods order without even realising it.

Female pastorship is a good indication of this.

There is no support for female pastorship in the scripture, only for male pastorship.

Yet that is not adhered to, because some think that "equality" is Gods order of things.

Maybe in heaven, but not here.

God established His order and has not changed it.

He has a reason for that order of things...

Exploring and understanding why God gave the original edict would probably be more productive than just denying or dismissing it.

You still have a problem Twilight. Your "Edict in Eden" covers only the home but does not cover anywhere else. Second the "Edict in Eden" covers only the relationship a woman has with her husband and NOT her relationship to any other man. Third, as I said before just because the Bible gives no "positive" ok to woman's leadership in the Church does not mean that it is thus prohibited because the Bible also does not positively state that it is ok to use computers, internet,cars, etc. to spread the Gospel, yet we use all those things to spread the Gospel. Why not also use women in the same capacity as men to spread the Gospel? The Bible clearly does not prohibit using women in this manner. Where in the Bible does it say that women cannot be Administrators, such as Conference Presidents, Union Presidents, etc.?

You need to stop using this "Edict in Eden" to prohibit women's leadership outside the home. Why? Because as I have shown already there is nowhere in Genesis chapter three does it talk anything about outside the home. You cannot just add anything you please because it suits your fancy to the Scripture. This is a very big no, no!

The question is not how I apply the edict.

The question is how it was applied in the Bible.

You insist it was just for the home.

But it was instituted in the home and church throughout scripture.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

But not everyone was a Pastor Stan.

And the biblical requirements for being a Pastor were:

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

All you have done is demonstrate that if a male wants to be a Bishop/Pastor then he must meet this requirement. It gives no requirements for a woman because there are none in regard to marriage because it is assumed that a woman will have only one husband per the culture in most societies of the world. Such assumptions cannot be made about a male because history has shown that males unlike most women tend to have more than one relationship with a female.

Second this is obviously a cultural rule made for that area because not all cultures on the globe have such a cultural formation. In the Roman Empire it is a well known fact (also in some Greek places) that men were having relations with women openly that were not their wives (this included women who were other men's wives) and Paul wanted to stop Christians from this practice. Such a practice is much different than societies that allowed a male to have multiple wives (that is in a legal spouse). Paul does not address that type of society in regard to the Bishop.

Again to emphasize this is nothing but clear command to meet the needs of that particular culture and its clear practices of men having relations with women not their wives. It is also not meant to be a broad general command that prohibits women from being a Pastor/Leader in the Church. This text merely met the demands in that local culture in order to keep Christian Leader males out of trouble and thus hindering the spread of the Gospel.

Imagine trying to convince an irate husband whose wife you had slept with that the Gospel was the Truth. Paul saw this as being a hindrance to the Gospel and its spread so he made this command just for males because Christian females needed no such command in that culture.

It states the qualifications for a Pastor.

NO 1:

MALE.

[Woody]

We need to stick with scripture rather than tradition.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

A Pastor performs a specific role of leadership in the church.

And in Gods wisdom that Pastor is defined as being male.

God's Wisdom defines no such thing as being male only. Scripture please. Book, Chapter, and verse.

And not some text with your preconceived notions added in. Just plain Scripture where it says that "only males need apply" or "females need not apply".

Strict words only.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You need to stop using this "Edict in Eden" to prohibit women's leadership outside the home. Why? Because as I have shown already there is nowhere in Genesis chapter three does it talk anything about outside the home. You cannot just add anything you please because it suits your fancy to the Scripture. This is a very big no, no!

Fact is, miz, you have offered no, that is, zero Biblical support for your own interpretation other than a bunch of questions from a human perspective, while ignoring the totality of what the rest of Scripture added to Gen. 3. Is the complete absence of women in the priesthood of Israel irrelevant to the question even though the priesthood of all believers was already an OT principle? "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as also the law (NOT CULTURE) SAYS."(ICor. 14:34) Notice that the setting here is outside the home (read the next verse).I Tim. 3:15 also sets the table for what Paul repeats in I Tim. 2:11-15 and CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY grounds it's principles in Gen.2&3. Eph. 5:22-24 reiterates the same principle and naturally raises the question of how a woman head pastor can be subject to her husband in fulfillment of Paul's Inspired instruction. I Cor. 11:3-10 is an even more emphatic reference to the purposes of Genesis. If God's model is that the man be the spiritual head (do you deny this?)of the home how is it that God suddenly changes His mind when the woman steps out of the house? How, given the evidence of Scripture, can you continue to claim that the Bible is silent regarding this question?

Excellent points Doug.

[Twilight II]

Twilight - you have offered no, that is, zero Biblical support for your own interpretation other than a bunch of questions from a human perspective, while ignoring the totality of what the rest of Scripture is saying.

We are to take the totality of scripture not just an isolated text here and there out of context.

Hopefully we can get back to topic and have a scholarly study of what scripture says on this topic.

I have yet to see even ONE quote in context that supports the notion that we should not ordain women as pastors. And I will repeat my challenge for those who believe in this theory to provide one.

Have you found that bible text yet Woody?

The one where it says a woman can be a Pastor?

[Woody]

We need to keep our focus on scripture as a whole and not rely upon human perspectives for our interpretations of clear scripture.

[Woody]

Have you found any scriptures to support your theories Twilight?

I'm still waiting for that ONE text.

[Twilight II]

Have you found any scriptures to support your theories Twilight?

I'm still waiting for that ONE text.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

^^Try this one Woody...

Unless you are claiming a husband can be a woman, seems clear that a bishop should be male...

Now I have presented my evidence, where is yours?

[Woody]

No I was asking for evidence. I could pull any old text out of a hat. But that is not called evidence.

[Twilight II]

No I was asking for evidence. I could pull any old text out of a hat. But that is not called evidence.

Oh dear...

Well if you do not consider that text pertaining to the subject, then I am not sure what you would consider appropriate...

Try posting a bible text occassionaly and I might take your arguments seriously.

[Twilight II]

Pro 13:16 Every prudent [man] dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open [his] folly.

This.

[Woody]

Quote:

Oh dear..

Yeah. Oh Dear. It's about time that each side show a little respect for the other side. It is possible for each side to view scripture differently. Just because you don't understand my interpretation - does not mean that I haven't presented scripture and tried to explain it.

Respect needs to be shown and love demonstrated on both sides or this silly charade goes on.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You need to stop using this "Edict in Eden" to prohibit women's leadership outside the home. Why? Because as I have shown already there is nowhere in Genesis chapter three does it talk anything about outside the home. You cannot just add anything you please because it suits your fancy to the Scripture. This is a very big no, no!

Fact is, miz, you have offered no, that is, zero Biblical support for your own interpretation other than a bunch of questions from a human perspective, while ignoring the totality of what the rest of Scripture added to Gen. 3. Is the complete absence of women in the priesthood of Israel irrelevant to the question even though the priesthood of all believers was already an OT principle? "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as also the law (NOT CULTURE) SAYS."(ICor. 14:34) Notice that the setting here is outside the home (read the next verse).I Tim. 3:15 also sets the table for what Paul repeats in I Tim. 2:11-15 and CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY grounds it's principles in Gen.2&3. Eph. 5:22-24 reiterates the same principle and naturally raises the question of how a woman head pastor can be subject to her husband in fulfillment of Paul's Inspired instruction. I Cor. 11:3-10 is an even more emphatic reference to the purposes of Genesis. If God's model is that the man be the spiritual head (do you deny this?)of the home how is it that God suddenly changes His mind when the woman steps out of the house? How, given the evidence of Scripture, can you continue to claim that the Bible is silent regarding this question?

You just recycled the arguments already made on this thread. It seems that the truth is hard for you to grasp.

1. I have commented and shown you and others to be wrong in the Scriptures you are trying to use. I did use Scripture. I used the Scriptures you have dredged up. So in fact I have offered Scripture solutions. I just used the Scripture you brought up.

2. You raise the priesthood of the Old Testament system as evidence that it is an all male job. Twilight raised this same question. I am happy to answer this issue.

The OT Sanctuary was an object lesson on Jesus Christ and the Great Plan of God to save humans. Each item in the Sanctuary was a symbol/object lesson of God, Jesus Christ, and their Work of Salvation.

As such the Priests and High Priests were symbols of Jesus Christ. Last time I checked Jesus Christ was a male person thus to symbolize Jesus Christ it had to be a male person/persons. It would have been inappropriate for a Priest/High Priest to have been a female.

The Sanctuary was never intended to as symbol for spreading the Gospel.

3. The Children of Israel as a whole symbolized the Church (not the Sanctuary). As such Mariam was a Pastor/Administrator/Leader whom God used and spoke through.

In addition the Children of Israel had woman Judges/Pastors/Administrators. So the FACT is the OT Church did have women Pastors/Leaders/Administrators.

I believe Huldah and Deborah come to mind.

Thus, your characterization of the OT Church is wrong in its totality.

4. You can go back and read my posts in regard to the wrongness of your types of interpretations of those NT texts that you cited.

This is in FACT a Biblical perspective and a Biblical Lesson that you badly need. Get your Biblical FACTS straight before citing the Sanctuary and the OT Church.

[miz3]

Quote:

She should be ashamed of herself for allowing to this to happen and demonstrating such low respect for protocol.

What a shameful comment. Makes me very embarrassed for my church.

I agree Woody.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Twilight - you have offered no, that is, zero Biblical support for your own interpretation other than a bunch of questions from a human perspective, while ignoring the totality of what the rest of Scripture is saying.

We are to take the totality of scripture not just an isolated text here and there out of context.

Hopefully we can get back to topic and have a scholarly study of what scripture says on this topic.

I have yet to see even ONE quote in context that supports the notion that we should not ordain women as pastors. And I will repeat my challenge for those who believe in this theory to provide one.

Have you found that bible text yet Woody?

The one where it says a woman can be a Pastor?

Read my post on Huldah and Deborah two OT woman pastors.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Have you found any scriptures to support your theories Twilight?

I'm still waiting for that ONE text.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

^^Try this one Woody...

Unless you are claiming a husband can be a woman, seems clear that a bishop should be male...

Now I have presented my evidence, where is yours?

You need to reread my explanation of that very text. Or did you conveniently overlook that one.

[CoAspen]

Bishop, bishop....since when did the SDA church have Bishops and priests??? A lame, lame excuse. Cultural, cultural and cultural. Its time men quit using God as an excuse, He never decreed it to begin with, as just own up, they don't think women can handle the job.

Come on, don't use the excuse that bishop means pastor, mankind adding definitions.

If people are going to stick to obvious cultural circumstances for 'no women' then we should stick by 'bishops'!!

Still no answer, where did GOD/CHRIST forbid women directly from the Bible! Stop going down the road "well, its understood".

The question still not answered, why would God and where did God???

[CoAspen]

A woman pastor ordained ?-HB

On a "High Sabbath" celebration in Melbourne, gender disparity in Adventism reached a low point.

On November 12, 2011, the Dallas Brooks Centre was packed with 2,500 Adventists who wanted to hear from General Conference president, Pastor Ted Wilson (“pastor” is the preferred title for church leaders in Australia). In addition to the large live audience, an estimated 800 additional groups tuned in to watch it online. The all-day program marked the first time many in Australia heard Wilson speak. The day’s events included preaching, orchestral music, a picnic lunch and a commissioning and ordination ceremony for three Adventist ministers. The day began with high expectations, but ended in a way that no one anticipated or wanted.

Ted Wilson, who was on a three-week trip through the South Pacific, preached Sabbath morning to the full house.

During the afternoon program, denominational leaders formally welcomed three individuals into Gospel ministry through commissioning and ordination: Danijela Trajkov, a pastor and director for the Victorian Conference Women’s Ministries Department; Cristian Copaceanu, a graduate of Avondale College and pastor in the Victorian Conference since 2006; and Iutini Rimoni, a pastor who is establishing a church plant in the northern suburb of Epping.

Along with her husband Nikola, Danijela Trajkov currently pastors five country churches in addition to serving in Women’s Ministries. A native of Croatia, she felt a calling to ministry as early as six years old. At that time, atheistic communist countries had six-day working weeks, with Sundays being a ‘day for rest.'

She further explained to Spectrum that,

Because none of his children attended school on Saturday, my father’s salary was penalized for each absence. We were bullied and abused by students and teachers alike, and I felt I had no rights – my only hope was Jesus, who loved me so much, and strengthened my faith more and more each day. My parents and I prayed for my education to continue, and a miracle happened the year I finished Primary: In that strongly communist country, God opened a door for the Church to operate an Adventist high school, and later the Theology faculty allowed girls.

In 1977, Danijela received a theology degree, and after a two-year internship, began a life of ministry that has now spanned more than three decades. She has also completed a Master of Ministry degree.

Now, on this Sabbath in Australia, she was to be commissioned (as is Seventh-day Adventist policy for women ministers) on the celebratory High Sabbath alongside her two younger male colleagues. In the Victorian Conference, commissioning is generally conducted in the same manner as is ordination--with a charge to the candidate, the laying on of hands, and a prayer of dedication and blessing. As an honored High Sabbath celebration guest, Ted Wilson was invited to offer the prayer of commissioning for Danijela Trajkov and of ordination for Cristian Copaceanu and Iutini Rimoni.

Moments before the program began, Wilson, citing a desire not to be seen as making a statement on women ministers and stating his discomfort with Danijela receiving the charge or being included in the prayer of ordination, declined to participate in the commissioning.

When the time came, Carole Ferch-Johnson, associate ministerial secretary of the Australian Union Conference, shared prepared remarks about the significance of commissioning and the biblical precedent for commissioning women. Victorian Conference secretary Darren Croft offered the prayer of commissioning as ministerial secretary Rob Steed together with Nikola Trajkov gathered around for the laying on of hands. After the prayer of commissioning, the plan was that Danijela and her husband would exit the platform and the two ordination candidates and their wives would enter the platform with Ted Wilson. However, a crowded stage made exiting impossible and the ordination candidates had already come onto the platform. So conference officials suggested that Danijela stay on stage as her male colleagues joined her.

Ted Wilson also came on to offer the prayer for them. Victorian Conference President G. Wayne Stanley read the charge to the two men, and then President Wilson noted that it was now time for the prayer of ordination and invited the two men to kneel. He neither looked at nor acknowledged Danijela, though she was standing right next to the ordinands. Then, in a turn simultaneously awkward and gracious, Danijela joined those laying hands on the two being ordained.

In response to a request for comment, Orville Parchment, assistant to President Ted Wilson, sent this statement:

It was Elder Wilson's understanding that the program for the ordination and commissioning services would be divided into two distinct sections with the commissioning service happening first and the ordination happening second. Elder Wilson joined the podium after the commissioning in order to participate in the ordination. Although pastor Trajkov continued to stand at the side of the other two candidates, Pastor Wilson’s remarks were prepared with the service of ordination in mind.

It became obvious to many in the audience that although Wilson intended to avoid making a statement on women ministers, he inadvertently made a strong statement by ignoring the woman and by directing his prayer only to the men.

While much was made of Wilson’s visit to Victoria and the High Sabbath celebration in general, nearly nothing was mentioned of the ordaining and commissioning in church media. The Record, the “Official News Magazine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church,” recorded snippets of Wilson’s remarks and provided comments on the Institute of Worship’s orchestra performance, but failed to report on the ordained and commissioned pastors at all. Unlike the practices of other Adventist media, The Record also refused to give permission to Spectrum to publish photos that its new editor took that day. The screen shot illustrating this article comes from the newsletter of the Victorian Conference, IntraVic, which did include a full page in its November issue providing biographical material on the three ministers, along with a short paragraph stating that Wilson was present. See the November issue (pdf download) of the IntraVic newsletter.

Numerous people approached Danijela afterward to share congratulations. Some asked why she seemed to be singled out. Too embarrassed to convey what really happened, she suggested that it might have to do with her age, or simply “ladies first.”

In the weeks that have elapsed since the event, she has received many letters of support, thanks and encouragement. One female correspondent from a former-Yugoslav church was deeply impressed by her genuineness of character. “I am so glad you are now ordained, as you deserve it,” the letter said with poignant inaccuracy.

Asked by Spectrum to share her reflections on the event, Danijela Trajkov responded with these comments, which we share unedited with her permission:

I praise God that I didn’t know nothing about changing the plan. I just allowed Holy Spirit to lead my thoughts toward Heaven, and I feel so humble before God when they prayed over me. But when they invited two young men up, and Pr Ted stand before them, asking their wives (with not very kind voice) to step back, I noticed that something is wrong. Then I felt humiliated, not worthy for his prayer. Why? Because God created me a woman. I have strong call for ministry from my childhood, and all my life I worked for my Lord – being not accepted, humiliated, even rejected as a woman; being told that I will never be pastor because I am a woman. So I learned through this journey how to rely on Jesus, the one who called me in ministry, and how to be strong in faith. I was ordained by Him long time ago, and nobody can deny it. I am so glad that Administrators in Victoria Conference recognised my call and acknowledged it. I am proud that I am SDA Minister woman to serve in the church and community where God sent me together with my husband ordained minister. He is my big support, and my son and daughter as well, who serve at the moment in mission field. My name is Danijela – it means “God has judged”, and He will one day. Until then my strength is in Him who will never let me down in a crisis.

HB,

Would you start a new thread with article and source. It is important and will get lost in this thread!!!!

[Neil D]

I have yet to see even ONE quote in context that support the notion that we should ordain women as pastors.

[ClubV12]

Still no answer, where did GOD/CHRIST say directly women should be ordained from the Bible? Stop going down the road "well, its understood".

The question is still not answered, why would God and where did God???

Woody can't find the illusive verse, CoAspen has searched in vain. I'll even accept a Spirit of Prophecy quote!

Even ONE?

[ClubV12]

"I'm sorry, but Ted Wilson actions are shameful..."

Seriously, you think the G.C. President should violate his oath of office and ignore the board of directors and proceed of his own accord to ordain a women?

Seriously? What blows me away about the twisted interpretation of these events is that if people are SO EASILY fooled by this you won't have a chance of understanding delusion and deception when it comes. Not a chance.

You cannot trust what you think you see, what you feel, what you think might be right. You HAVE to base your decisions on biblical and Spirit of Prophecy principles. You have to be able to reason from cause to effect. The inability of so many people being unable to do this is astonishing!

How is it possible you could come to the conclusion that Ted Wilson should have acted alone, literally in spite of the prevailing rules, constitution and understanding of the World Church Policies? Do you have any idea what this would have meant? We have a KING, subject to no one! If a President (POTUS) were to act in this manner it would be an impeachable offense!

...the sheer stupidity of condeming Ted Wilsons actions just blows my mind. A total mob mentality, ripe for the latest card trick, you guys won't have a chance when Satan proclaims himself Christ. You'll fold like a house of cards.

[Twilight II]

does not mean that I haven't presented scripture and tried to explain it.

Which scripture did you present Woody.

Would you point to the post?