TED on Women in Leadership

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Twilight, Hulda, Deborah, and Ellen White were all women who God placed over all the men that were their contemporaries.

Such FACTS put the lie to your false view of the "Edict of Eden".

.

Since facts are of such importance in this discussion perhaps you could explain exactly how the prophetess Huldah was placed over all the contemporary male prophets, priests,princes,and kings of her day.Next you might explain why Deborah, as appointed leader of Israel,needed to enlist the help of a man in order to get Israel out of the trouble they were in?

"Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 9 Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the LORD and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” 10 Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.

11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Acbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD’s anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”

14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District.

15 She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, 16 ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all the idols their hands have made,[a] my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’”

So they took her answer back to the king."

2Kings 22:8-20.

Here is the text about Huldah in its context. Notice the men, all them, sought the council of the woman Huldah to know what the Lord God says.

Clearly she had authority over the whole nation because even the king inquired of her. If you wanted to know the Lord's will then you asked Huldah a woman. It didn't matter that you were a man, you still had to humble yourself in order to know what God required. God spoke through a woman to all those powerful men.

Why cannot the SDA Church .org and its individuals accept that God can still speak through Women today who He has called to the Gospel Ministry/Administration just as God called both men/women in the days of the Children of Israel?

God placed Huldah over all those men. God can place women over men today as well. Why do fight against the Lord and His Will?

I am shocked that anyone would not know this. However I am happy to help anyone find understanding anytime I can.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Twilight, Hulda, Deborah, and Ellen White were all women who God placed over all the men that were their contemporaries.

Such FACTS put the lie to your false view of the "Edict of Eden".

.

Since facts are of such importance in this discussion perhaps you could explain exactly how the prophetess Huldah was placed over all the contemporary male prophets, priests,princes,and kings of her day.Next you might explain why Deborah, as appointed leader of Israel,needed to enlist the help of a man in order to get Israel out of the trouble they were in?

As regards Deborah:

"After Ehud died, the Israelites once again did evil in the eyes of the LORD. 2 So the LORD sold them into the hands of Jabin, a king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth Haggoyim. 3 Because he had nine hundred iron chariots and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the LORD for help.

4 Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading[a] Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’”

8 Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.”

9 “Very well,” Deborah said, “I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh, 10 where he summoned Zebulun and Naphtali. Ten thousand men followed him, and Deborah also went with him.

11 Now Heber the Kenite had left the other Kenites, the descendants of Hobab, Moses’ brother-in-law,[c] and pitched his tent by the great tree in Zaanannim near Kedesh.

12 When they told Sisera that Barak son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor, 13 Sisera gathered together his nine hundred iron chariots and all the men with him, from Harosheth Haggoyim to the Kishon River.

14 Then Deborah said to Barak, “Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?” So Barak went down Mount Tabor, followed by ten thousand men. 15 At Barak’s advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera abandoned his chariot and fled on foot. 16 But Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim. All the troops of Sisera fell by the sword; not a man was left.

17 Sisera, however, fled on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because there were friendly relations between Jabin king of Hazor and the clan of Heber the Kenite.

18 Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, “Come, my lord, come right in. Don’t be afraid.” So he entered her tent, and she put a covering over him.

19 “I’m thirsty,” he said. “Please give me some water.” She opened a skin of milk, gave him a drink, and covered him up.

20 “Stand in the doorway of the tent,” he told her. “If someone comes by and asks you, ‘Is anyone here?’ say ‘No.’”

21 But Jael, Heber’s wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.

22 Barak came by in pursuit of Sisera, and Jael went out to meet him. “Come,” she said, “I will show you the man you’re looking for.” So he went in with her, and there lay Sisera with the tent peg through his temple—dead.

23 On that day God subdued Jabin, the Canaanite king, before the Israelites. 24 And the hand of the Israelites grew stronger and stronger against Jabin, the Canaanite king, until they destroyed him."

Judges 4. (the whole chapter).

Here is the text for Deborah in all its context.

1. Notice verse four, that Deborah was not only a Prophetess but THE LEADER OF ISRAEL.

Deborah was not just a leader in Israel, she was THE LEADER.

2. Notice also that it was God who made Deborah THE LEADER over all those men in Israel. That would be akin today of being GC President Ted Wilson.

The fact that she was in addition a prophetess makes in the mold of Samuel before Saul became king.

I believe this FACT says that God appoints women the same as He appoints men to Lead His People.

There is nothing hidden here it is all clear cut and plain except to those who reject the Truth.

3. Deborah did not "enlist the help" of a man. She actually commanded the man (Barak by name) to do as the Lord desired. She did not need the man, she commanded the man. Please get the story straight.

4. It was the man, Barak by name, who was afraid to go without having the protection of Deborah (the woman) to hide behind. Again, you must get the story straight.

As the Bible points out because the man, Barak by name, was afraid to obey, he did not get the credit the woman, Deborah was willing to give him. So the credit went to another woman named Jael.

This marvelous story tells us that God does indeed use women to lead His People. It is just phoney male posturing that tries to twist the Scripture to say something else.

I am surprised that this story actually needs to be explained. The language is clear so that even the young ones can see the Truth.

[doug yowell]

I do not reject Ellen White's ministry. I applaud it. Without her the SDA Church .org would be kaput.

The SDA Church .org's (and all those individuals that are conguent with it) problem is that it over estimates her God given task and makes it a fanatical distortion of what God intended.

It is [this] fanatical view of her that causes so many to disregard her legitimate ministry. Yes she did have a ministry as a woman that included having authority over every male person in the SDA Church .org. A position which [some] wish to deny all other SDA Women of having.

How can one over estimate beyond the estimate of what you have just said??? If her authority had reached such proportions the only remaining step would be Divinity!!Seems like [this ignores] the historical facts about EGW's life and her relationship with the church of her day.I'm sure both she her SDA contemporaries would be amused to find out that her authority exceeded that of the Pope.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I do not reject Ellen White's ministry. I applaud it. Without her the SDA Church .org would be kaput.

The SDA Church .org's (and all those individuals that are conguent with it) problem is that it over estimates her God given task and makes it a fanatical distortion of what God intended.

It is [this] fanatical view of her that causes so many to disregard her legitimate ministry. Yes she did have a ministry as a woman that included having authority over every male person in the SDA Church .org. A position which [some] wish to deny all other SDA Women of having.

How can one over estimate beyond the estimate of what you have just said??? If her authority had reached such proportions the only remaining step would be Divinity!!Seems like [this ignores] the historical facts about EGW's life and her relationship with the church of her day.I'm sure both she her SDA contemporaries would be amused to find out that her authority exceeded that of the Pope.

Huh? Ellen White could trump anything a human man and/or there collective voice could do if Ellen White had a mind to. All she had to do is say, "It comes from the Lord". That is indeed power.

Ellen White only exercised such Authority when needed.

Yet the SDA Church .org and its individuals have placed everything she wrote and said upon this high pedestal.

The fact that she had authority over all the men in the SDA Church .org is not inconsistent with the FACT that not everything she wrote and/or said was divinely oriented anymore than everything Daniel, Moses, Deborah, Huldah, Samuel, said/wrote was also divinely oriented. The Bible has kept only what was Divinely Oriented. In the case of Ellen White the SDA Church .org has not yet let God weed out what is Divinely Oriented from that which it is not.

The facts are that we have only a very small portion of what Daniel, Moses, Deborah, Huldah, Samuel, Paul, etc. actually did/said/wrote.

The Bible even says the same is true for the Life of Jesus Christ.

Yet the SDA Church .org treats Ellen White completely different than what has happened to the Biblical Prophets. We have kept almost every conceivable scrap of documentation/evidence of the life/times of Ellen White down to even what she had for breakfast each and every day. No other prophet has been given such treatment.

Ellen White should not be made more special than any other prophet and yet the SDA Church .org has indeed made Ellen White more special than any of the other Prophets of the Bible.

This is horrendously wrong. It does a disservice to God and to His chosen Prophet Ellen White to say nothing of the disservice and even dishonesty to those who follow her among the congregation.

The only reason for doing this by the SDA Church .org is to use her as a "Club" a big "Club" to keep the Church in line to their view of things.

This is dishonesty at the least and goes on up to blasphemy of God at most.

[doug yowell]

[Here is the text about Huldah in its context. Notice the men, all them, sought the council of the woman Huldah to know what the Lord God says.

.

Why did they seek her counsel? Because she was a prophet!! The story even proves that the authority of a priest, king,ect...is of a different nature than that of a prophet. Huldah was only one of many prophets in Judah at the time, was she set by God above the other male prophets to whom the kings went? Huldah was neither the spiritual head of Judah, the President of the Prophet Society,or the royal head of the Jewish nation,neither did she minister in the temple as a member of the clergy, yet she was known to have a direct connection to the mind of God. If the SDA church wants to ordain a woman to function in the same capacity with the same obvious connection I have no reservations about recognizing her "authority". Sadly, that's not the case today.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why cannot the SDA Church .org and its individuals accept that God can still speak through Women today who He has called to the Gospel Ministry/Administration just as God called both men/women in the days of the Children of Israel?

Excellent comment.

[doug yowell]

[

As regards Deborah:

[color:#000099]" 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go,.

3. Deborah did not "enlist the help" of a man. She actually commanded the man (Barak by name) to do as the Lord desired. She did not need the man, she commanded the man. Please get the story straight.

4

Speaking of getting the story straight, that's quite a difference from what v.6 said. "She SAID TO HIM, The Lord commands you...Go!" If she didn't need a man then why did God Himself command one to go? And why is her name not mentioned in the great faith chapter of Heb.11 instead of Barak's? And why is she the only woman "leader" ever mentioned in the entire Bible (excepting Athaliah), and only at a time of Israel's apostasy? Why no women apostles? Why no women in the select 12? Why no Godly, strong women priests in the OT? Or no queens? Why does Paul state categorically that the husband is head of the wife and the Lord allowed for the dismissal of a woman's vow by either her father or her husband in his instructions? The gift of prophesy stands outside of those borders, the other offices do not.Simply claiming that the singular example of a woman leader in the Bible nullifies the rest of the Biblical model and teaching, or that being a prophet makes one the head of a nation, isn't very pursuasive with me.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

[Here is the text about Huldah in its context. Notice the men, all them, sought the council of the woman Huldah to know what the Lord God says.

.

Why did they seek her counsel? Because she was a prophet!! The story even proves that the authority of a priest, king,ect...is of a different nature than that of a prophet. Huldah was only one of many prophets in Judah at the time, was she set by God above the other male prophets to whom the kings went? Huldah was neither the spiritual head of Judah, the President of the Prophet Society,or the royal head of the Jewish nation,neither did she minister in the temple as a member of the clergy, yet she was known to have a direct connection to the mind of God. If the SDA church wants to ordain a woman to function in the same capacity with the same obvious connection I have no reservations about recognizing her "authority". Sadly, that's not the case today.

Your confusion. Read the passage again and again until you can get it right.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

[

As regards Deborah:

" 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go,.

3. Deborah did not "enlist the help" of a man. She actually commanded the man (Barak by name) to do as the Lord desired. She did not need the man, she commanded the man. Please get the story straight.

4

Speaking of getting the story straight, that's quite a difference from what v.6 said. "She SAID TO HIM, The Lord commands you...Go!" If she didn't need a man then why did God Himself command one to go? And why is her name not mentioned in the great faith chapter of Heb.11 instead of Barak's? And why is she the only woman "leader" ever mentioned in the entire Bible (excepting Athaliah), and only at a time of Israel's apostasy? Why no women apostles? Why no women in the select 12? Why no Godly, strong women priests in the OT? Or no queens? Why does Paul state categorically that the husband is head of the wife and the Lord allowed for the dismissal of a woman's vow by either her father or her husband in his instructions? The gift of prophesy stands outside of those borders, the other offices do not.Simply claiming that the singular example of a woman leader in the Bible nullifies the rest of the Biblical model and teaching, or that being a prophet makes one the head of a nation, isn't very pursuasive with me.

Then Deborah said to Barak, “Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?” So Barak went down Mount Tabor, followed by ten thousand men. 15 At Barak’s advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera abandoned his chariot and fled on foot. 16 But Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim. All the troops of Sisera fell by the sword; not a man was left."

2Kings 4:14-16.

She gave the command and Barak and all the men in the army obeyed. That is leading men and by a woman no less. She was not acting as prophet but as head of the army. She was Second in Command after God. Barak a man was third in Command.

Get it now. Its called "chain of command".

The same is true for Huldah. If women were so under the men in this system why did the king and all his male Councillors and other male leaders seek Huldah. After all you said they so many more males "prophets" they could have gone to but no they went to a female prophet to know what the Lord wanted.

Thus, once again, God was supreme commander, Huldah a woman was Second in Command, the king of God's People was next in Command all along down the chain of command.

Get it now. This is what the Bible says. It is the Bible that says in this case Huldah a woman was in command of all the men of God's People and only subject to the direct command of God only. That is FACT. It does not matter how many men prophets existed, or other men of authority, God made Huldah in this case over all the men of God's People.

Next there were no female priests for one very special reason. The Priests in the OT Sanctuary like everything in the OT Sanctuary were symbols of Jesus Christ who by the way was a male. It would not have been suitable for God to have made a female a priest because it would not have fit the symbolism that was to symbolize Jesus Christ.

Get it again now.

As to the Kings God was against that so that is not the model you should be pointing to. God was to be their only king. Those men kings with extremely few exceptions made them pay dearly for their desire to have a king like all the other nations. On parenthetical not, Queen Jezebel actually ruled Ahab but that was satanic case if there was one. Bottom line God was not into the king of His People thing so you cannot point to that as part of the Godly structure.

Get that point now.

As to the Apostles God/Jesus Christ can choose anyone He wants. There is no evidence that He chose them just because they were males. The only reason a female might not be a good choice for the inner circle would to avoid the accusations of hanky panky that surely His enemies would have hurled at Jesus Christ.

Yet there were many disciples of Christ that were women who attended to His needs daily. The Bible says so. This is not an argument for superiority of men in leadership. Very thin, Very thin. There is no evidence that Jesus Christ was making a statement about male authority in choosing the twelve or any other disciples.

We do have ample evidence that Martha and Mary were particular friends of Jesus Christ in a closeness not seen in many others except Peter James and John and Lazarus. Two woman having equal place with the close men in the Life of Jesus Christ.

Get that now.

As to dismissal of a wife an OT custom practiced by Israel and pagan societies around them. This says nothing about the superiority of men. It is most clear that this is a cultural practice and does not fit God's Ideal as stated in Genesis when He said the "two shall be one".

Get it now. Boy are you mixed up.

I don't care if any of this is persuasive to you or not. You can do and believe as you like.

I have just presented the Truth in regards to the Bible in an effort to help your confusion out. Whether accept the help or not is up to you because it is your neck not mine.

[John317]

You're confused, miz3. Deborah was commanded by God to tell Barak to lead the army of 10,000 males. God didn't command Deborah to lead the army. The text even says that the troops followed Barak into battle.

Deborah says, The Lord has delivered Sisera into YOUR [barak's] hand. She didn't say the Lord had delivered Sisera into her own hand.

"The Lord routed Sisera BEFORE Barak" NOT before Deborah!!!! See verse 15.

Barak pursued the chariots and the army. It doesn't say Deborah pursued the chariots.

Then in verse 22, it says a woman, Jael, comes out and tells Barak that she killed Sisera. Remember that Deborah had said (v. 9) a woman would get all the glory because Barak refused to go without Deborah. This was a slap in the face of a man-- to think that a woman would get the glory for killing another man.

Judges 5 is the result-- a song that glorifies Jael for having slain Sisera.

[miz3]

You're confused, miz3. Deborah was commanded by God to tell Barak to lead the army of 10,000 males. God didn't command Deborah to lead the army. The text even says that the troops followed Barak into battle.

Deborah says, The Lord has delivered Sisera into YOUR [barak's] hand. She didn't say the Lord had delivered Sisera into her own hand.

"The Lord routed Sisera BEFORE Barak" NOT before Deborah!!!! See verse 15.

Barak pursued the chariots and the army. It doesn't say Deborah pursued the chariots.

Then in verse 22, it says a woman, Jael, comes out and tells Barak that she killed Sisera. Remember that Deborah had said (v. 9) a woman would get all the glory because Barak refused to go without Deborah. This was a slap in the face of a man-- to think that a woman would get the glory for killing another man.

Judges 5 is the result-- a song that glorifies Jael for having slain Sisera.

Why do you ignore what the Bible says before that?

The FACT is that Deborah was there and she led and gave the command to attack. That is FACT. It is vital FACT that you keep ignoring.

For example:

General Eisenhower (WWII) tells General Patten to attack the Germans at a certain place. General Eisenhower does not go into battle and Patten defeats his opposite number.

In this scenario are you saying that Patten was the commander and that General Eisenhower was not in the war and was not Patten's superior?

Please John317 join the real world.

Deborah was a commander/leader like General Eisenhower and Barak was the subordinate to Deborah who carried out her orders.

Get it now.

Face it John317 [what you have said is] supporting a failed position because the Bible does not support it. [it is] twisting and manipulating of Bible verses cannot erase the True FACTS as presented in the Bible.

In addition all [these] attempts to minimize and demean these women will fail because the Bible is clear about the Truth concerning these God chosen women leaders.

[Tom Wetmore]

I have to agree that miz3 is reading and understanding these passages correctly.

[miz3]

You're confused, miz3. Deborah was commanded by God to tell Barak to lead the army of 10,000 males. God didn't command Deborah to lead the army. The text even says that the troops followed Barak into battle.

Deborah says, The Lord has delivered Sisera into YOUR [barak's] hand. She didn't say the Lord had delivered Sisera into her own hand.

"The Lord routed Sisera BEFORE Barak" NOT before Deborah!!!! See verse 15.

Barak pursued the chariots and the army. It doesn't say Deborah pursued the chariots.

Then in verse 22, it says a woman, Jael, comes out and tells Barak that she killed Sisera. Remember that Deborah had said (v. 9) a woman would get all the glory because Barak refused to go without Deborah. This was a slap in the face of a man-- to think that a woman would get the glory for killing another man.

Judges 5 is the result-- a song that glorifies Jael for having slain Sisera.

Here is another example of misinterpreting the Scripture. You asked for an example, well here is an example. You twist the FACTS. You minimize what is actually happening, and you cite only snippets of the Bible when I gave you the whole passage.

And showing from Ellen White that your view of things is correct tends to be interpreting Scripture using Ellen White as the interpreter and the trump card to what the Bible says.

This is how I think you come across on the forum. And this why I believe your positions are not in harmony with the Bible.

[Overaged]

What you are saying here re Huldah seems a little off-balance.

Quote:

1/ "Clearly she had authority over the whole nation because even the king inquired of her. If you wanted to know the Lord's will then you asked Huldah a woman. It didn't matter that you were a man, you still had to humble yourself in order to know what God required. God spoke through a woman to all those powerful men."

2/ "Why cannot you accept that God can still speak through Women today who He has called to the Gospel Ministry/Administration just as God called both men/women in the

days of the Children of Israel?"

3/ God placed Huldah over all those men. God can place women over men today as well. Why do you fight against the Lord and His Will?"

The King and his people did not seek her personal council or authority, the scripture is clear. They sought the Lord's council. 2Kings 22:8-20. Notice vs 9:

"the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them

that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD." Was any of this

money delivered to Huldah? No. It was not. It is because she did not have "oversight

in the house of the Lord." She was a prophet; and prophets don't have that.

The nature of "authority" and prophetic ministry in the church continues to be misunderstood. Vs 13 of this passage clearly tells us the King was seeking the Lord's council, and gender had/has nothing to do with should we listen or not to someone who has it.

Just like Ellen White was not the boss of the church; nor does our doctrine originate from her; Huldah was also a prophetess, and had no authority over the church, or of

the secular kingdom it was in. Huldah and Ellen White could only tell people what

they knew. (1 John 1:1-3), and then it was up to the people to listen or not.

I learned a long time ago to listen to women's council in the church. Take my wife.

When she says that I need to start taking better care to keep the kitchen in our

house in better shape; I know what would happen if I don't. It's not that she is my

"boss;" but we need to get along and be able to live with one another, and do what's

right so we listen to one another. When I listen to her - OH THE REWARDS ARE GREAT!!

And if I decide not to listen to her, it does not mean I am the boss either. Might just mean that I am stubborn and wont listen to something that would help and bless.

I have also seen the value in listening to Ellen White, another woman in the church. My spiritual walk has been so improved by doing so, but she has no personal authority

over me - any authority there is of the Lord.

If Huldah were alive today; she; like the mother of Jesus, would tell us: Do whatever

he tells you." This does not make her our boss, or to have "authority" over us in

anything. (1 John 1:1-3)

Take a look at the enclosed picture. Maybe this reflects what the church looks like when people misunderstand "authority;" and argue away about it? Maybe it reflects the kind of people who would even sacrifice friendships and doing what's right, just to win the argument and impose their views on the rest, complete with personal insults and internet flaming wars?

Do we seek the Lord's council (2 Kings 22:13), or our own, or someone else's on this

subject? The ones doing the most vehement arguing here need a better, more Biblical

understanding of church authority and the nature & role of a prophet. Even the GC president, (part of highest authority on earth) cannot march into my wife's kitchen and tell her what to do with it!

[miz3]

What you are saying here re Huldah seems a little off-balance.

Quote:

1/ "Clearly she had authority over the whole nation because even the king inquired of her. If you wanted to know the Lord's will then you asked Huldah a woman. It didn't matter that you were a man, you still had to humble yourself in order to know what God required. God spoke through a woman to all those powerful men."

2/ "Why cannot you accept that God can still speak through Women today who He has called to the Gospel Ministry/Administration just as God called both men/women in the

days of the Children of Israel?"

3/ God placed Huldah over all those men. God can place women over men today as well. Why do you fight against the Lord and His Will?"

The King and his people did not seek her personal council or authority, the scripture is clear. They sought the Lord's council. 2Kings 22:8-20. Notice vs 9:

"the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them

that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD." Was any of this

money delivered to Huldah? No. It was not. It is because she did not have "oversight

in the house of the Lord." She was a prophet; and prophets don't have that.

The nature of "authority" and prophetic ministry in the church continues to be misunderstood. Vs 13 of this passage clearly tells us the King was seeking the Lord's council, and gender had/has nothing to do with should we listen or not to someone who has it.

Just like Ellen White was not the boss of the church; nor does our doctrine originate from her; Huldah was also a prophetess, and had no authority over the church, or of

the secular kingdom it was in. Huldah and Ellen White could only tell people what

they knew. (1 John 1:1-3), and then it was up to the people to listen or not.

I learned a long time ago to listen to women's council in the church. Take my wife.

When she says that I need to start taking better care to keep the kitchen in our

house in better shape; I know what would happen if I don't. It's not that she is my

"boss;" but we need to get along and be able to live with one another, and do what's

right so we listen to one another. When I listen to her - OH THE REWARDS ARE GREAT!!

And if I decide not to listen to her, it does not mean I am the boss either. Might just mean that I am stubborn and wont listen to something that would help and bless.

I have also seen the value in listening to Ellen White, another woman in the church. My spiritual walk has been so improved by doing so, but she has no personal authority

over me - any authority there is of the Lord.

If Huldah were alive today; she; like the mother of Jesus, would tell us: Do whatever

he tells you." This does not make her our boss, or to have "authority" over us in

anything. (1 John 1:1-3)

Take a look at the enclosed picture. Maybe this reflects what the church looks like when people misunderstand "authority;" and argue away about it? Maybe it reflects the kind of people who would even sacrifice friendships and doing what's right, just to win the argument and impose their views on the rest, complete with personal insults and internet flaming wars?

Do we seek the Lord's council (2 Kings 22:13), or our own, or someone else's on this

subject? The ones doing the most vehement arguing here need a better, more Biblical

understanding of church authority and the nature & role of a prophet. Even the GC president, (part of highest authority on earth) cannot march into my wife's kitchen and tell her what to do with it!

The point is simple Overaged. Huldah led the very same way that Samuel and the other male prophet/leaders led. That is why the male king and his male officers sought out Huldah. We are just saying that Huldah is just like other male leaders with the community of God's People.

That is FACT straight from the Bible and her position/leadership should never ever be demeaned or minimized in any way shape or form as some have done on this and other threads.

[Overaged]

She didn't "lead;" she gave some information.

She told the people what God told her. That's it. The Bible mentions nothing about her authority or leadership in the church

[miz3]

The issue is about Women Leaders and should God's People have women leaders as well as male leaders of His People.

The Bible says yes.

Those who disagree have twisted Scripture, demeaned and minimized the role of these women called by God to lead His People.

I for one will not stand around silent at this obvious injustice within the SDA Church .org.

[miz3]

She didn't "lead;" she gave some information.

She told the people what God told her. That's it. The Bible mentions nothing about her authority or leadership in the church

So you say. I'll go by the Bible.

[Overaged]

The issue is about Women Leaders and should God's People have women leaders as well as male leaders of His People.

The Bible says yes.

Those who disagree have twisted Scripture, demeaned and minimized the role of these women called by God to lead His People.

I for one will not stand around silent at this obvious injustice within the SDA Church .org.

Part of the issue actually is the nature of responses that we see to this subject. Obviously you are "not going to remain silent;"

A different understanding of scripture has nothing to do with "twisting" or "demeaning."

You don't have to be silent. No one is asking you to.

But the scriptures you cite do not once mention Hulda as a leader of the church. They only briefly mention how she told the people something that the Lord told her. No mention of leadership or authority at all. I showed you a verse where the people who had "oversight in the church" were given that money - and Hulda was not amongst that group. You can't make her something that the Bible doesn't make her. She was a prophetess - period. Nothing else is mentioned about her.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

She didn't "lead;" she gave some information.

She told the people what God told her. That's it. The Bible mentions nothing about her authority or leadership in the church

So you say. I'll go by the Bible.

I don't say it, the Bible says it

[Neil D]

Ok gentlemen....Unless you guys start making new and relevant points, this thread will be closed again....all because you two are trying to "one up one another"....

Seek for truth in Love, gentlemen...if you do that, you will find your hearts desire....promise from God...

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes. Please keep remarks addressed only to ideas and not at each other's throats.

I have to agree that miz3 is reading and understanding these passages correctly.

I think I may need to expand on this a bit.

Deborah was a judge in the time of the judges which was a period of time when the judges were the leaders of the people. There is no evidence to suggest that she was of any lesser standing than her male counterparts.

And that she and Hulda were prophets likewise puts them on a peer level with the identified male prophets. There is nothing in the text to suggest any lesser standing.

The standing of a prophet as being ordained/appointed by God places that person in a position of leadership. What they say is authoritative because of Who appointed them to speak. That God would place that high responsibility on any woman's shoulders gives convincing evidence that God is not troubled by women in leadership.

It seems very odd to me that the role and function of pastor should be viewed as any different. We consider the position of prophet more important, of higher standing, more authoritative than that of a pastor. Yet those who trumpet the notion of headship as requiring that a woman not usurp a man's position or to have any authority by being a pastor seem unable to grasp that a position of higher authority was already given by God to women prophets. Why is a woman unfit for the lesser position of pastor?

[Woody]

Quote:

It seems very odd to me that the role and function of pastor should be viewed as any different. We consider the position of prophet more important, of higher standing, more authoritative than that of a pastor. Yet those who trumpet the notion of headship as requiring that a woman not usurp a man's position or to have any authority by being a pastor seem unable to grasp that a position of higher authority was already given by God to women prophets. Why is a woman unfit for the lesser position of pastor?

Thanks for nailing it down in clear concise terms Tom. This is exactly what I had been thinking but hadn't formulated a response as you have.

[miz3]

She didn't "lead;" she gave some information.

She told the people what God told her. That's it. The Bible mentions nothing about her authority or leadership in the church

My dear friend Overaged no servant of God regardless of station, be it Union President, GC President, Prophet, Bishop, Deacon, Military Commander, male or female ever has Authority of their own.

All Authority comes from God. So your remarks about Huldah do not minimize her Authority/Standing among God's People in the least because all Authority/Standing comes from God and is prosecuted according to God's Wishes never according to the human instrument's wishes.

I hope that you are not asserting that our current Union Presidents and GC President have their own Authority apart from God in any way. Are you asserting that these "male" leaders have within themselves apart from God authority of their own?

If the answer is no then you agree with me and this FACT puts Huldah's Authority from God on the same footing as any male counterparts. It also accounts for why the king of God's People put himself under the Authority of Huldah so as to know the Lord God's Will.

The whole point of any Leadership/Authority in regard to God's People is to indeed have human instruments be they male or female who will be used by God to communicate His Authority and Wishes to the whole Congregation.

I hope that is what our current Union Presidents and our current GC President are where they for. They are not supposed to be in the positions of power for their own authority but are indeed like Huldah, Deborah, Miriam, Ellen White to be in their positions of Authority so as to communicate the Will and Wishes of God to the Congregation.

If our current Union Presidents and GC President are where they are because of their authority then they are of no value to God, no value to the Congregation, and in FACT will bring down evil on the People of God.

No one in Authority who is called by God is there because they are special. They are only in such positions of Authority so as to do nothing more (as you have pointed out in your post concerning Huldah and her work) than tell "the people what God told her. That's it." (what you said in red above).

Moses himself viewed by most in history as the greatest Leader of God's People was nothing more than God's messenger. I believe the Bible actually describes Moses' work as exactly that. Thus, Moses did no more than Huldah.

It is not right for us to demean and minimize the work of God's Chosen Leaders like Moses, Abraham, David, Huldah, Deborah, Miriam, Ellen White, the Twelve Apostles, Paul, etc. They ALL WERE NOTHING MORE THAN GOD'S MESSENGERS WHO RELAYED WHAT GOD WANTED THE CONGREGATION TO KNOW AND DO.

All of these Servants I listed did "nothing more than tell the People of God what God told them".

That should also be the role of those today who serve God as Union Presidents and as GC President. Thus I think it is wrong to demean and minimize the work of anyone who God chooses to serve Him in whatever capacity.

When God calls a person, be it male or female they automatically have God's Authority behind them and should never ever be demeaned or minimized. We all remember what happened to those who demeaned and minimized the Prophet Elijah and made fun of him and His Authority from God. I think that means we all need to show great respect for God's Call also to Huldah, Deborah, Miriam, and Ellen White.

That is unless someone thinks God's Call is some Power that needs to be grasped and held by the human's own right and personage?

I think a man Simon in Acts made that mistake concerning the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

In that light we all should show the greatest respect for the Authority God gave Huldah, Deborah, Miriam, Ellen White all of which held God's Authority over all of God's People.

[miz3]

Yes. Please keep remarks addressed only to ideas and not at each other's throats.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I have to agree that miz3 is reading and understanding these passages correctly.

I think I may need to expand on this a bit.

Deborah was a judge in the time of the judges which was a period of time when the judges were the leaders of the people. There is no evidence to suggest that she was of any lesser standing than her male counterparts.

And that she and Hulda were prophets likewise puts them on a peer level with the identified male prophets. There is nothing in the text to suggest any lesser standing.

The standing of a prophet as being ordained/appointed by God places that person in a position of leadership. What they say is authoritative because of Who appointed them to speak. That God would place that high responsibility on any woman's shoulders gives convincing evidence that God is not troubled by women in leadership.

It seems very odd to me that the role and function of pastor should be viewed as any different. We consider the position of prophet more important, of higher standing, more authoritative than that of a pastor. Yet those who trumpet the notion of headship as requiring that a woman not usurp a man's position or to have any authority by being a pastor seem unable to grasp that a position of higher authority was already given by God to women prophets. Why is a woman unfit for the lesser position of pastor?

Perfectly put.