TED on Women in Leadership

[John317]

Scripture does not agree with your "male chauvinist" view.

Is Paul also a "male chauvinist"? Many who favor women's "liberation" believe he is.

I am waiting to see if any of the people who favor women as elders and pastors will either agree or disagree with your statement.

[miz3]

Now just to clarify something.

Their are two fundamental problems in men and women.

1. Men do not love the wives the way they should.

2. Women struggle to submit to their husbands.

Both of these issues sprang up in Eden.

Both of these issues need dealing with in any Christian home.

But the husband as the head of the home has to take the lead and has to make it a priority to rectify his sin.

When he does, the woman will often trust the husband more and be willing to be subject to his God ordained leadership.

Now some will deride this because it does not fit into the modern secular ideology of equal partnership.

But equal partnership has never been biblical.

The husband has always been expected to lead by love and by sacrifice...

That is Gods order of things.

What I fear is happening to the church is that men and women have grown up in a secular society and cannot see the belief systems that are subtly altering their mindsets.

They end up drifting away from Gods order without even realising it.

Female pastorship is a good indication of this.

There is no support for female pastorship in the scripture, only for male pastorship.

Yet that is not adhered to, because some think that "equality" is Gods order of things.

Maybe in heaven, but not here.

God established His order and has not changed it.

He has a reason for that order of things...

Exploring and understanding why God gave the original edict would probably be more productive than just denying or dismissing it.

You still have a problem Twilight. Your "Edict in Eden" covers only the home but does not cover anywhere else. Second the "Edict in Eden" covers only the relationship a woman has with her husband and NOT her relationship to any other man. Third, as I said before just because the Bible gives no "positive" ok to woman's leadership in the Church does not mean that it is thus prohibited because the Bible also does not positively state that it is ok to use computers, internet,cars, etc. to spread the Gospel, yet we use all those things to spread the Gospel. Why not also use women in the same capacity as men to spread the Gospel? The Bible clearly does not prohibit using women in this manner. Where in the Bible does it say that women cannot be Administrators, such as Conference Presidents, Union Presidents, etc.?

You need to stop using this "Edict in Eden" to prohibit women's leadership outside the home. Why? Because as I have shown already there is nowhere in Genesis chapter three does it talk anything about outside the home. You cannot just add anything you please because it suits your fancy to the Scripture. This is a very big no, no!

[miz3]

The truth is this,......... every believer is a Minister.

When the Gospel Commission was given.......... there were males and females present.

Excellent point Stan. Once again you nail it.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

The truth is this,......... every believer is a Minister.

When the Gospel Commission was given.......... there were males and females present.

But not everyone was a Pastor Stan.

And the biblical requirements for being a Pastor were:

Quote:

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

All you have done is demonstrate that if a male wants to be a Bishop/Pastor then he must meet this requirement. It gives no requirements for a woman because there are none in regard to marriage because it is assumed that a woman will have only one husband per the culture in most societies of the world. Such assumptions cannot be made about a male because history has shown that males unlike most women tend to have more than one relationship with a female.

Second this is obviously a cultural rule made for that area because not all cultures on the globe have such a cultural formation. In the Roman Empire it is a well known fact (also in some Greek places) that men were having relations with women openly that were not their wives (this included women who were other men's wives) and Paul wanted to stop Christians from this practice. Such a practice is much different than societies that allowed a male to have multiple wives (that is in a legal spouse). Paul does not address that type of society in regard to the Bishop.

Again to emphasize this is nothing but clear command to meet the needs of that particular culture and its clear practices of men having relations with women not their wives. It is also not meant to be a broad general command that prohibits women from being a Pastor/Leader in the Church. This text merely met the demands in that local culture in order to keep Christian Leader males out of trouble and thus hindering the spread of the Gospel.

Imagine trying to convince an irate husband whose wife you had slept with that the Gospel was the Truth. Paul saw this as being a hindrance to the Gospel and its spread so he made this command just for males because Christian females needed no such command in that culture.

[miz3]

A Pastor performs a specific role of leadership in the church.

And in Gods wisdom that Pastor is defined as being male.

God's Wisdom defines no such thing as being male only. Scripture please. Book, Chapter, and verse.

And not some text with your preconceived notions added in. Just plain Scripture where it says that "only males need apply" or "females need not apply".

Strict words only.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...The only "way of the flesh" I see is "men/males" who are sooooo angry that anyone would even suggest that women/females would be considered for anything a man/male would hold. These angry males are the ones leaning on their "flesh" to continue to be the only dominant ones around and they angrily cite the Bible erroneously as the reason for their "male egotistical stand".

Originally Posted By: John3:17

This is an invalid argument for several reasons:

You are doing here what you do too often-- trying to read people's motives. None of us can read people's motives. It's called "judging" and the Bible commands us not to do it.

Remember that there are many people who accuse Paul of having the same motives as you falsely and unfairly accuse "men/males" of having.

What you apparently fail to take into account is the fact that many women also oppose the ordination of women to be pastors and elders of local churches.

Originally Posted By: miz3

I am not judging motives John317. This is your tactic to quiet a person's voice you don't like.

How do you know this? Here is another example of your attempting to read people's motives.

Originally Posted By: miz3

I am however, judging the words by what they say in the post. You are free to not like such judgment even though my judgment of the words is true.

I am just judging the words as written.

Please quote the statements that you believe give you reason for accusing males of being "angry."

Are you claiming that I myself am "angry" and that this is my motive for being opposed to women as church pastors and elders?

Are women also angry so that they, too, oppose women being the church pastors?

Its called reading your words.

I am not a mind reader you just accuse people of doing this even though you have no basis for saying so. Its a distraction tactic on your part. Stick to the subject at hand John317.

[miz3]

A woman pastor ordained ?-HB

On a "High Sabbath" celebration in Melbourne, gender disparity in Adventism reached a low point.

On November 12, 2011, the Dallas Brooks Centre was packed with 2,500 Adventists who wanted to hear from General Conference president, Pastor Ted Wilson (“pastor” is the preferred title for church leaders in Australia). In addition to the large live audience, an estimated 800 additional groups tuned in to watch it online. The all-day program marked the first time many in Australia heard Wilson speak. The day’s events included preaching, orchestral music, a picnic lunch and a commissioning and ordination ceremony for three Adventist ministers. The day began with high expectations, but ended in a way that no one anticipated or wanted.

Ted Wilson, who was on a three-week trip through the South Pacific, preached Sabbath morning to the full house.

During the afternoon program, denominational leaders formally welcomed three individuals into Gospel ministry through commissioning and ordination: Danijela Trajkov, a pastor and director for the Victorian Conference Women’s Ministries Department; Cristian Copaceanu, a graduate of Avondale College and pastor in the Victorian Conference since 2006; and Iutini Rimoni, a pastor who is establishing a church plant in the northern suburb of Epping.

Along with her husband Nikola, Danijela Trajkov currently pastors five country churches in addition to serving in Women’s Ministries. A native of Croatia, she felt a calling to ministry as early as six years old. At that time, atheistic communist countries had six-day working weeks, with Sundays being a ‘day for rest.'

She further explained to Spectrum that,

Because none of his children attended school on Saturday, my father’s salary was penalized for each absence. We were bullied and abused by students and teachers alike, and I felt I had no rights – my only hope was Jesus, who loved me so much, and strengthened my faith more and more each day. My parents and I prayed for my education to continue, and a miracle happened the year I finished Primary: In that strongly communist country, God opened a door for the Church to operate an Adventist high school, and later the Theology faculty allowed girls.

In 1977, Danijela received a theology degree, and after a two-year internship, began a life of ministry that has now spanned more than three decades. She has also completed a Master of Ministry degree.

Now, on this Sabbath in Australia, she was to be commissioned (as is Seventh-day Adventist policy for women ministers) on the celebratory High Sabbath alongside her two younger male colleagues. In the Victorian Conference, commissioning is generally conducted in the same manner as is ordination--with a charge to the candidate, the laying on of hands, and a prayer of dedication and blessing. As an honored High Sabbath celebration guest, Ted Wilson was invited to offer the prayer of commissioning for Danijela Trajkov and of ordination for Cristian Copaceanu and Iutini Rimoni.

Moments before the program began, Wilson, citing a desire not to be seen as making a statement on women ministers and stating his discomfort with Danijela receiving the charge or being included in the prayer of ordination, declined to participate in the commissioning.

When the time came, Carole Ferch-Johnson, associate ministerial secretary of the Australian Union Conference, shared prepared remarks about the significance of commissioning and the biblical precedent for commissioning women. Victorian Conference secretary Darren Croft offered the prayer of commissioning as ministerial secretary Rob Steed together with Nikola Trajkov gathered around for the laying on of hands. After the prayer of commissioning, the plan was that Danijela and her husband would exit the platform and the two ordination candidates and their wives would enter the platform with Ted Wilson. However, a crowded stage made exiting impossible and the ordination candidates had already come onto the platform. So conference officials suggested that Danijela stay on stage as her male colleagues joined her.

Ted Wilson also came on to offer the prayer for them. Victorian Conference President G. Wayne Stanley read the charge to the two men, and then President Wilson noted that it was now time for the prayer of ordination and invited the two men to kneel. He neither looked at nor acknowledged Danijela, though she was standing right next to the ordinands. Then, in a turn simultaneously awkward and gracious, Danijela joined those laying hands on the two being ordained.

In response to a request for comment, Orville Parchment, assistant to President Ted Wilson, sent this statement:

It was Elder Wilson's understanding that the program for the ordination and commissioning services would be divided into two distinct sections with the commissioning service happening first and the ordination happening second. Elder Wilson joined the podium after the commissioning in order to participate in the ordination. Although pastor Trajkov continued to stand at the side of the other two candidates, Pastor Wilson’s remarks were prepared with the service of ordination in mind.

It became obvious to many in the audience that although Wilson intended to avoid making a statement on women ministers, he inadvertently made a strong statement by ignoring the woman and by directing his prayer only to the men.

While much was made of Wilson’s visit to Victoria and the High Sabbath celebration in general, nearly nothing was mentioned of the ordaining and commissioning in church media. The Record, the “Official News Magazine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church,” recorded snippets of Wilson’s remarks and provided comments on the Institute of Worship’s orchestra performance, but failed to report on the ordained and commissioned pastors at all. Unlike the practices of other Adventist media, The Record also refused to give permission to Spectrum to publish photos that its new editor took that day. The screen shot illustrating this article comes from the newsletter of the Victorian Conference, IntraVic, which did include a full page in its November issue providing biographical material on the three ministers, along with a short paragraph stating that Wilson was present. See the November issue (pdf download) of the IntraVic newsletter.

Numerous people approached Danijela afterward to share congratulations. Some asked why she seemed to be singled out. Too embarrassed to convey what really happened, she suggested that it might have to do with her age, or simply “ladies first.”

In the weeks that have elapsed since the event, she has received many letters of support, thanks and encouragement. One female correspondent from a former-Yugoslav church was deeply impressed by her genuineness of character. “I am so glad you are now ordained, as you deserve it,” the letter said with poignant inaccuracy.

Asked by Spectrum to share her reflections on the event, Danijela Trajkov responded with these comments, which we share unedited with her permission:

I praise God that I didn’t know nothing about changing the plan. I just allowed Holy Spirit to lead my thoughts toward Heaven, and I feel so humble before God when they prayed over me. But when they invited two young men up, and Pr Ted stand before them, asking their wives (with not very kind voice) to step back, I noticed that something is wrong. Then I felt humiliated, not worthy for his prayer. Why? Because God created me a woman. I have strong call for ministry from my childhood, and all my life I worked for my Lord – being not accepted, humiliated, even rejected as a woman; being told that I will never be pastor because I am a woman. So I learned through this journey how to rely on Jesus, the one who called me in ministry, and how to be strong in faith. I was ordained by Him long time ago, and nobody can deny it. I am so glad that Administrators in Victoria Conference recognised my call and acknowledged it. I am proud that I am SDA Minister woman to serve in the church and community where God sent me together with my husband ordained minister. He is my big support, and my son and daughter as well, who serve at the moment in mission field. My name is Danijela – it means “God has judged”, and He will one day. Until then my strength is in Him who will never let me down in a crisis.

Hmmmm! Very powerful. Thank you for posting.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Scripture does not agree with your "male chauvinist" view.

Is Paul also a "male chauvinist"? Many who favor women's "liberation" believe he is.

I am waiting to see if any of the people who favor women as elders and pastors will either agree or disagree with your statement.

Paul is NOT a chauvinist. He is a realist. He dealt with a cultural issue for the good of the Gospel. Read my previous post in regard to Paul and his comment on the Bishop having one wife.

[doug yowell]

You need to stop using this "Edict in Eden" to prohibit women's leadership outside the home. Why? Because as I have shown already there is nowhere in Genesis chapter three does it talk anything about outside the home. You cannot just add anything you please because it suits your fancy to the Scripture. This is a very big no, no!

Fact is, miz, you have offered no, that is, zero Biblical support for your own interpretation other than a bunch of questions from a human perspective, while ignoring the totality of what the rest of Scripture added to Gen. 3. Is the complete absence of women in the priesthood of Israel irrelevant to the question even though the priesthood of all believers was already an OT principle? "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as also the law (NOT CULTURE) SAYS."(ICor. 14:34) Notice that the setting here is outside the home (read the next verse).I Tim. 3:15 also sets the table for what Paul repeats in I Tim. 2:11-15 and CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY grounds it's principles in Gen.2&3. Eph. 5:22-24 reiterates the same principle and naturally raises the question of how a woman head pastor can be subject to her husband in fulfillment of Paul's Inspired instruction. I Cor. 11:3-10 is an even more emphatic reference to the purposes of Genesis. If God's model is that the man be the spiritual head (do you deny this?)of the home how is it that God suddenly changes His mind when the woman steps out of the house? How, given the evidence of Scripture, can you continue to claim that the Bible is silent regarding this question?

[Woody]

Quote:

1. Men do not love the wives the way they should.

2. Women struggle to submit to their husbands.

This is an interesting topic. Perhaps you might like to start a thread on it. But in this thread we are talking about the TEDs decision regarding women in Church leadership OUTside of the home.

[Woody]

Quote:

How do you know this? Here is another example of your attempting to read people's motives.

John - Please refrain from judging others' minds and motives. This is contrary to the rules established in this forum. We need to create a safe atmosphere here for all to participate.

If you do feel the need to read other people's minds - please do so with a private message.

Some good scriptural advice on this matter is found in Rom. 14:1

"Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently."

[Overaged]

I find it very sad that this subject, always degenerates into a parade of insults.

[Woody]

Twilight - you have offered no, that is, zero Biblical support for your own interpretation other than a bunch of questions from a human perspective, while ignoring the totality of what the rest of Scripture is saying.

We are to take the totality of scripture not just an isolated text here and there out of context.

Hopefully we can get back to topic and have a scholarly study of what scripture says on this topic.

I have yet to see even ONE quote in context that supports the notion that we should not ordain women as pastors. And I will repeat my challenge for those who believe in this theory to provide one.

[Woody]

Thanks for your post hamiliton-beach.

It is a shame what Ted did to this woman.

(ANd I say Ted out of respect for him and what he asked us to call him at the General Conference in Session.)

[Woody]

I find it very sad that this subject, always degenerates into a parade of insults.

Thanks for this comment overaged. Those of us who agree with you need to stand up and encourage better Christian behavior on both sides - not just the one that we have a leaning towards. I thought that Tom showed excellent leadership in this regard and would encourage others to step up also.

[Overaged]

Well; one can always dig up a bunch of quotes on this. That's the easy part.

After all is said and done here; I have this tiny little nagging question that has pestered me for years on this topic of "women being ordained."

Don't know if I have the courage to post the question though...will have to think about that one.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I find it very sad that this subject, always degenerates into a parade of insults.

Thanks for this comment overaged. Those of us who agree with you need to stand up and encourage better Christian behavior on both sides - not just the one that we have a leaning towards. I thought that Tom showed excellent leadership in this regard and would encourage others to step up also.

yes, lol, I agree. I won't need my cudgel for Tom on this one...

[Woody]

Well; one can always dig up a bunch of quotes on this. That's the easy part.

After all is said and done here; I have this tiny little nagging question that has pestered me for years on this topic of "women being ordained."

Don't know if I have the courage to post the question though...will have to think about that one.

Go for it Overaged. Have courage and confidence that if enough of us stick together to ensure a safe environment that it CAN be done respectfully. Perhaps if we have a fresh start with a new thread - it CAN be done.

Wanna try?

[ClubV12]

I have yet to see even ONE quote in context that support the notion that we should ordain women as pastors.

AND I will repeat my challenge for those who believe in this theory to accomplish.

It was not a "low point" for Ted Wilson when he was following the established G.C. protocol for the ordination of women. He showed courage by following that protocol regardless of the impact, how people may have seen it or what it might have appeared to be.

The commissioned women made a serious error by not discreetely removing herself from the situation. She should be ashamed of herself for allowing to this to happen and demonstrating such low respect for protocol.

Ted Wilsons actions were a high point for establishing how important it is to follow principle and law in the face of adversity. I am grateful we have leadership with the courage to stand for principle.

[Woody]

Quote:

yes, lol, I agree. I won't need my cudgel for Tom on this one

Some could use a good shillelaghing though. :)

[Overaged]

Ted Wilsons actions were a high point for establishing how important it is to follow principle and law in the face of adversity. I am grateful we have leadership with the courage to stand for principle.

[Overaged]

LOL; did you spell that word right?

I'll ask the question tonight, depending on the mood of this topic then; I may just start another thread..

[Woody]

Quote:

She should be ashamed of herself for allowing to this to happen and demonstrating such low respect for protocol.

What a shameful comment. Makes me very embarrassed for my church.

[Woody]

Quote:

LOL; did you spell that word right?

I am not sure. I think it's a Woodyism. (If that is a word)

[ClubV12]

What would have been embarrasing for the church would have been Ted Wilson ignoring protocol, making his own on the spot decision and going against the counsel of the brethren and established protocol for the ordination of women.

The women involved was entirely out of place by positioning herself in a way to bring reproach upon the church. Her actions denigrated the solem occasion of ordination. This was little different than any other woman, or man, leaving the pew and coming forward to take part in the ceremony. I don't believe her actions were intentional, but certainly not well thought out, she made a serious mistake in thrusting herself into this.

I'm embarrased by the number of people that fail to grasp the significance of this mistake and claim to represent the Adventist church.

I'm still waiting for that verse or quote that says we should ordinate women Woody, have you found it yet?

"I have yet to see even ONE quote in context that support the notion that we should ordain women as pastors. AND I will repeat my challenge for those who believe in this theory to accomplish."