TED on Women in Leadership

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I've not seen one Biblical quote that contradicts the rest of scripture in supporting WO.

Where does the scripture tell us to ordain Women as the pastors of the Church Woody.

Do you have a text?

No issue should be 'proof texted'. We should take scripture as a whole. As Tom stated - there is much scholarly work done on this issue in the past posts. I am not about to regurgitate all that here for you. IF you are an honest seeker - you can look it up.

God bless your search friend.;

[John317]

I'm not opposed to women being ordained to various ministries. I'm opposed to women being ordained to be church pastors and elders until the World Church thoroughly studies the subject in the Bible and makes its decision on that basis. The issue has to be solved theologically, not administratively or politically. It can't be based on the idea that women need to have the position of pastor in order to show that the church treats women the same as it does men. It would be wrong to base our practice on such a motive.

[Woody]

Yes. WE need to make the decision based wholely on scripture and not on cultural demands. So far we have not made a decision on scripture. Rather it was deemed 'culturally sensitive' . The old traditions were held onto while a study of scripture was ordered.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Where does the scripture tell us to ordain Women as the pastors of the Church Woody.

Do you have a text?

No issue should be 'proof texted'. We should take scripture as a whole. As Tom stated - there is much scholarly work done on this issue in the past posts. I am not about to regurgitate all that here for you. IF you are an honest seeker - you can look it up.

God bless your search friend.;

Oh..

So you do not have such a text?

Sounds like hot air to me Woody.

No text?

Lots of evidence?

Surely you should have at least one "clear" text to present to us all, seeming you are so militant about us having female pastors?

[Woody]

Oh Okay Twilight. So you are not seriously looking. Instead you want to attack and attack without a Biblical basis on which to do so. Hey there are all kinds on this forum. I guess you are welcome to do so.

[John317]

... there is much scholarly work done on this issue in the past posts.

And what has such "scholarly work" shown about the Bible's teaching regarding women as church pastors and elders?

The truth is that it has not dealt very well with the Bible evidence, especially with Paul's statement that "as with all the churches of the saints, let your women keep silent in the congregations, for they are not permitted to speak, but they are to be submissive, as the law also says... If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." {1 Cor. 14: 33b-37}

Notice the reasons Paul gives for his instructions. He refers to "the law" (ie, the Bible) as support for what he has told them and he also says that he is giving them the commandments of the Lord.

He does not say the reason for his instruction are problems in the local churches. On the contrary, Paul directs our minds to what happened in Eden as the reason for his instructions. See 1 Tim. 2: 11-14.

Finally, the apostle adds, "If anyone does not recognize this [Paul's instructions about women], he is not recognized."

What is Paul saying here?

[Stan]

Let me please ask this question

How many scriptures are there that support ordaining men in the NT?

[John317]

... The old traditions were held onto while a study of scripture was ordered.

But don't you support a study of Scripture on this issue?

I don't believe the practices of the SDA church as regards women in the church were merely "old traditions." Those practices were thought to be in harmony with the Bible or they wouldn't have been the church's practice.

Ellen White certainly did not indicate that the church's practices in her day were in error and that the church should ordain women to be the pastors of the churches. She had an opportunity to support women being ordained to be pastors, but she was silent on the issue. She didn't say that the church's decision was unfair or unjust, and we know that if she believed it was unjust and wrong, she would definitly have said something. But she remained silent.

If the "old traditions" are shown to be contrary to Scripture, I would favor changing them so that our practices are in line with the teachings of the Bible.

[John317]

Oh Okay Twilight. So you are not seriously looking.

It seems to me that Twilight is merely asking for some Bible verses which clearly support women being ordained to be pastors and elders.

Isn't that a fair question?

If you believe this question has already been answered directly, please direct us to the post where it is given.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Oh Okay Twilight. So you are not seriously looking.

It seems to me that Twilight is merely asking for some Bible verses which clearly support women being ordained to be pastors and elders.

Isn't that a fair question?

If you believe this question has already been answered directly, please direct us to the post where it is given.

As with you - Twilight has seen it and rejected it . Scripture foretells that this will happen in the last days. People's eyes will be closed to Truth.

Those who oppose WO have been shown over and over the scriptural Truth and yet it is rejected as if there is nothing.

I have to turn these people over to their God. And pray He will open their eyes.

[Woody]

Let me please ask this question

How many scriptures are there that support ordaining men in the NT?

Excellent question Stan.

[Woody]

Ellen White did support women being ordained. She herself was ordained and promoted it by carrying the credentials of an Ordained Pastor. How much more of a statement would one need?

She lead by example.

[John317]

Let me please ask this question

How many scriptures are there that support ordaining men in the NT?

No scriptures in the NT speak directly about "ordaining" pastors or elders or biships.

The purpose of ordination in the SDA Church is to show the people that the church recognizes the authority of the individual to represent the church. It also tells the people that the church believes the individual being ordained has shown evidence of having been chosen by God to do a certain work in the church.

The real issue, then, is not so much about ordination as it is about appointing people to positions of various types of leadership.

How many scriptures are there that support men as elders, pastors, bishops? And how many scriptures support women as elders, pastors, bishops?

Here are a few NT texts dealing with that question:

Quote:

Titus 1:5-7

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— [6] if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. [7] For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

1 Tim. 3:1-7

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [2] Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

NOTE: The above scriptures give clear support for the appointment of men to be elders, overseers [bishops], etc.

Where are the scriptures that support the appointment of women to be eldrs, overseers, etc.?

[Twilight II]

Oh Okay Twilight. So you are not seriously looking. Instead you want to attack and attack without a Biblical basis on which to do so. Hey there are all kinds on this forum. I guess you are welcome to do so.

Lots of words Woody.

But still no text?

C'mon, if it is so obvious then you must have a text that says it is okay for women to be Pastors, from the bible?

Where is it?

[Twilight II]

As with you - Twilight has seen it and rejected it . Scripture foretells that this will happen in the last days. People's eyes will be closed to Truth.

Those who oppose WO have been shown over and over the scriptural Truth and yet it is rejected as if there is nothing.

I have to turn these people over to their God. And pray He will open their eyes.

Still no text then Woody?

Lots more words, but no text?

A lot of noise going on other there Woody.

But not much biblical scholarship...

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Let me please ask this question

How many scriptures are there that support ordaining men in the NT?

No scriptures in the NT speak directly about "ordaining" pastors or elders or biships.

The purpose of ordination in the SDA Church is to show the people that the church recognizes the authority of the individual to represent the church. It also tells the people that the church believes the individual being ordained has shown evidence of having been chosen by God to do a certain work in the church.

The real issue, then, is not so much about ordination as it is about appointing people to positions of various types of leadership.

How many scriptures are there that support men as elders, pastors, bishops? And how many scriptures support women as elders, pastors, bishops?

Here are a few NT texts dealing with that question:

Quote:

Titus 1:5-7

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— [6] if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. [7] For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

1 Tim. 3:1-7

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [2] Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

NOTE: The above scriptures give clear support for the appointment of men to be elders, overseers [bishops], etc.

Where are the scriptures that support the appointment of women to be eldrs, overseers, etc.?

Good post.

There is no support for women in these offices in the NT.

Only for men.

[John317]

Ellen White did support women being ordained. She herself was ordained and promoted it by carrying the credentials of an Ordained Pastor. How much more of a statement would one need?

She lead by example.

Ellen White was never ordained as a pastor. She was never ordained or appointed to be a church pastor or elder. She was given a credential long after she had been appointed by Jesus Christ to be His special messenger. Ellen White never functioned as "the pastor" of a church. That work was left to the men, and Ellen White showed that she saw a clear distinction between the responsibilies and work of men and that of women.

The Ellen G. White Estate's position on this question is that Ellen White was issued a minister's credential because there was no other credential to give her. There was no "prophet's credential."

It was issued to her for two basic reasons: 1) She needed it when she traveled in order show proof that she was doing legitimate work for the church. 2) She needed it in order to be reimbursed for travel expenses she incurred as she traveled from conference to conference visiting various churches.

[CoAspen]

What, still no noticeing of the elephant in the room......

Quote:

We have, I believe, in all the time spent through out all the threads and topics avoided the 'real' question of why some believe women are to be excluded. The answer, because the Bible says so, is open to debate, whether or not they think it is debateable. Why would the Bible exclude women? Is it an arbitrary decision? God said it, no, but so and so said it? What is our real reason for being against WO?

No one can answer? Too busy claiming it wrong? Would like to see the question answered before we go over and over the issue to infinity with the same arguements, either way. Anyone.....listening....waiting....

[Woody]

I find it hard to believe that our prophet and the General conference would be liars.

Our prophet would not be fraudulent by carrying the credentials of an ordained pastor if she was not indeed ordained. I have to much respect for her and the church to believe that theory.

[John317]

Ellen White ...

She lead by example.

Yes, she did; and how did she do it, and what does that example tell us as far women being "the pastor" or elder of the local church is concerned?

Did Ellen White ever participate in the appointment or ordination of a woman to be a church pastor?

Did she ever write to any woman (or tell them) that they should work toward becoming a church pastor or elder?

What was her relationship with her "minister" husband and did it show that she recognized a difference between his work & responsibilities as a man and her own work as a woman?

I believe a close reading of her biographies and her letters will reveal that she showed she recognized a clear difference between Elder White's work and her own work. She never attempted or wanted to be a pastor or elder in the church.

[Twilight II]

I find it hard to believe that our prophet and the General conference would be liars.

Our prophet would not be fraudulent by carrying the credentials of an ordained pastor if she was not indeed ordained. I have to much respect for her and the church to believe that theory.

Where is that text Woody?

That says women should be Pastors in the New Testament?

You might want to check your jean pockets, maybe you left it in there?

You must have found it by now, surely?

:-)

[Woody]

.This is rather clear to me. The signature of Ellen White and the words "ordained". End of story.

[John317]

What, still no noticeing of the elephant in the room......

Quote:

We have, I believe, in all the time spent through out all the threads and topics avoided the 'real' question of why some believe women are to be excluded. The answer, because the Bible says so, is open to debate, whether or not they think it is debateable. Why would the Bible exclude women? Is it an arbitrary decision? God said it, no, but so and so said it? What is our real reason for being against WO?

No one can answer? ..

First of all, I am not against WO per se. Women may be ordained for various ministries within the church. For instance, women may be ordained for ministry in music, women's ministries, children's ministries, personal ministries, marriage counseling, Bible work, health ministries, evangelism, etc. There are many important positions open in the church for women to do great work for God in spreading the gospel and sharing His love for people.

But getting back to your question regarding "the real reason for being against" women as church pastors and elders:

This question has been answered many times before. The real reason is that it appears to me the Bible opposes it. It's the same reason I chose to stop practicing homosexuality. I attempt to base my life on the Bible's teaching and I believe the SDA church should base its doctrines and practices on the Bible.

I am not against "debate" over these questions. In fact, I encourage open exchanges about it. That is why I'm participating here on ClubAdventist.

If the World Church were to decide after Bible study that women should be appointed as pastors and elders, and if the church gives valid biblical grounds for making this decision, I would go along with it.

I've attended a number of churches here in Southern Californai where women were the pastors. I've never uttered a single word in opposition to their being pastors or elders. The only place I've discussed it with anyone [outside of my own family, such as sisters, mother, father] is here on the Forum.

[Twilight II]

.This is rather clear to me. The signature of Ellen White and the words "ordained". End of story.

Maybe it slipped down the side of the settee Woody?

Maybe thats where you misplaced the text that says women should be pastors in the NT?

[John317]

.This is rather clear to me. The signature of Ellen White and the words "ordained". End of story.

The reason it can't be the end of the story as far as the church's decision is concerned, is that Ellen White was a prophet, not a "minister." She never even claimed to be a church pastor or elder, nor did she ever function as one. She wrote that she was never ordained by man, which shows that she considered God's ordination to be her only authority and she never sought for the church's ordination. Ellen White really worked directly for Christ and not for the church. The church had no power or authority to tell her what to write or preach or teach.

The church can fire pastors and elders, but it could not fire Ellen White. Why? Because the church didn't choose her--- God did. The church had nothing to do with it, any more than the church or Israel had to with the appointment of the prophets in the Bible.

The spiritual gift of prophecy is completely different from that of pastor/elder, etc. God chooses the prophet directly by giving them visions and dreams, whereas the pastor/elder must be chosen or appointed by the church. That's a major difference that must be taken into account in a discussion of this topic. It means that it's incorrect to assume that because God chose a woman as His mouth-piece [prophet], the church would be right to choose women as "the pastors" and the elders. That would be like Israel deciding to choose women as priests because God chose a woman to be a prophet or a judge.