Woody Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Quote: And it occurs to me that a divine ordination supersedes any man made ordination... I agree. Many female pastors have divine ordination to serve. So, why not just admit it? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Issuance of a Minister license without ordination is certainly not fraud! It was established by the Adventist church in the late 1800's or early 1900's that a license put you "on track" for ordination. Being a Professor at a University does not mean you are "tenured". Two different things. I can get a Ministers license from any number of Web Sites and many churches would actually recognize the authority it carries, while some would laugh in your face. If a man or woman feels he/she is ordained by God to serve Him full time, go to work!! Don't wait for "man" to authorize what you believe in your heart. Don't EXPECT man to 100% believe your claim to divine ordination either! PROVE all things FIRST, hold fast that which is good.
CoAspen Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Quote: If a man or woman feels he/she is ordained by God to serve Him full time, go to work!! Don't wait for "man" to authorize what you believe in your heart. Don't EXPECT man to 100% believe your claim to divine ordination either! PROVE all things FIRST, hold fast that which is good. Great!!! Agree!!
Woody Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Quote: Issuance of a Minister license without ordination is certainly not fraud! It was established by the Adventist church in the late 1800's or early 1900's that a license put you "on track" for ordination. It's quite simple. The SDA church issued her "Ordained Minister" credentials. If she was not ordained - the church is a liar and so is our prophet. That is the bottom line of this story. So now you know !!!! May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Did ya miss the one where ordained was crossed out? :)
miz3 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 For the answer we need to consider the rest of the evidence. She herself never claimed to be ordained. We have NO reports of ANY kind by ANYBODY claiming she was ever ordained. Since early on in her experience as a prophet she was accompanied by various individuals who recorded virtually every detail of her life, for the rest of her life. Not a SINGLE WORD, in thousands of pages of documentation about her being ordained. THAT defies logic on a grand scale. Doesn't matter how logical you are on this. Those that want womens ordination at any cost, will not see it. They are driven by their secularised notions of equality in leadership between men and women. That is their highest principle and they will use any rotten board to shore that desire up... It is the way of the flesh. Twilight, I generally have great respect for your posts, however this post is not like you as I know you. I find this post nasty, illogical, and not based on any Biblical evidence. In fact there is no Biblical evidence that precludes woman from being Pastors/Ministers/Ordained/Leaders at all levels/etc. In fact the Bible is to be last Word on this issue and as I have already said the Bible does not prohibit woman from any office/standing that is held by any male person today. The only "way of the flesh" I see is "men/males" who are sooooo angry that anyone would even suggest that women/females would be considered for anything a man/male would hold. These angry males are the ones leaning on their "flesh" to continue to be the only dominant ones around and they angrily cite the Bible erroneously as the reason for their "male egotistical stand". I find such things unGodly, unChristian, and definitely unBiblical. It is clear Ellen White was indeed ordained as the credentials point out. It is also a FACT that Ellen White was THE SIGNIFICANT LEADER of the SDA Church .org for over seventy years. She was a WOMAN. As such the men at the GC and everywhere were actually under her Authority because God said so. That is also FACT! That evidence alone wipes out all the male ego strutting efforts to keep women from LEADERSHIP in the SDA Church .org. I am afraid that the males who are against "women's ordination" don't have a single scrap to stand on because Ellen White smashes all their paper houses to nothing. The damage has already been done my male friends. It is only the stubbornness of male ego that is holding up the train. Its coming in spite these male ego trippers. It is only a matter of "when".
miz3 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: CoAspen why are we worrying about ordination of men or women.....are we to full of ourselves?? Have you ever considered that people reject it because they do not have a plain: "Thus saith the Lord" It seems that when someone opposes womens ordination, the immediate response is that they reject it because of some bigotry (as defined by secular ideologies). Thus side stepping the issue many people actually raise. Which is that it opposses Gods own mandate, as revealed in the scripture. So the proponents of womens ordination often want to make it an issue of personal bigotry, rather than a biblical reasoning of Gods will on the matter... I have yet to see such Biblical Proof. I have read those texts too and see no such proof.
Woody Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Yeah I've never seen any Biblical evidence that we are not to ordain women. Quite the opposite. And have you not seen the many credentials where "ordained" is NOT crossed out after the death of this poor lady whom some will question her ordained status after all that she did for us? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 "It is clear Ellen White was indeed ordained..." Such a statement is patently ridiculous, and yet, we hear it over and over. Common sense people, it aint so common.... If it WAS "clear" this thread wouldn't exist! It's only "clear" in those who have already made up their mind and logic/reason no longer applies. If it WAS clear we would see it "clearly" in a bible text. But we don't see it, in the bible or in the writings of Ellen White. Regardless of what position I may or may not take on the issue, the one thing that IS clear is, "it's not clear". Whew, thats amazing that so many cannot see that simple, plain, reasonable, logical FACT. "Yeah I've never seen any Biblical evidence that we are not to ordain women." Have you ever seen any Biblical evidence that says we should?
Woody Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 It is only unclear to those who would propose that our prophet is a liar. I have to much respect for Ellen White and the church to believe that they are both liars. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 I still have hope for you ClubV12. May you be rescued. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
miz3 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 I repeat so those who have a hard time understanding will get another crack at it. It is also a FACT that Ellen White was THE SIGNIFICANT LEADER of the SDA Church .org for over seventy years. She was a WOMAN. As such the men at the GC and everywhere were actually under her Authority because God said so. That is also FACT! If God and the Bible were against woman in leadership then tell me why did God make Ellen White the LEADER OF THE SDA CHURCH .ORG FOR OVER SEVENTY YEARS? If such a thing were as some male egoists state that the Bible is against women in leadership then God messed up and violated His own Word by making Ellen the LEADER OF THE SDA CHURCH .ORG. God made Ellen White such by fiat. God did not let the SDA Church .org decide the issue. If women are soooooooo unqualified for such positions then, I ask again, why did God put Ellen White in charge the SDA Chruch .org for over seventy years? If such leadership is sooooooo pagan/pagan culture then why did God put Ellen White in charge? Hmmmm!
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted December 4, 2011 Administrators Posted December 4, 2011 Did ya miss the one where ordained was crossed out? Did ya miss all the others where it wasn't crossed out?!?! Or the annual listing of EGW in the SDA Yearbook for 30 years as an ordained minister?!?! "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Doesn't matter how logical you are on this. Those that want womens ordination at any cost, will not see it. They are driven by their secularised notions of equality in leadership between men and women. That is their highest principle and they will use any rotten board to shore that desire up... It is the way of the flesh. Twilight, I generally have great respect for your posts, however this post is not like you as I know you. I find this post nasty, illogical, and not based on any Biblical evidence. In fact there is no Biblical evidence that precludes woman from being Pastors/Ministers/Ordained/Leaders at all levels/etc. In fact the Bible is to be last Word on this issue and as I have already said the Bible does not prohibit woman from any office/standing that is held by any male person today. The only "way of the flesh" I see is "men/males" who are sooooo angry that anyone would even suggest that women/females would be considered for anything a man/male would hold. These angry males are the ones leaning on their "flesh" to continue to be the only dominant ones around and they angrily cite the Bible erroneously as the reason for their "male egotistical stand". I find such things unGodly, unChristian, and definitely unBiblical. It is clear Ellen White was indeed ordained as the credentials point out. It is also a FACT that Ellen White was THE SIGNIFICANT LEADER of the SDA Church .org for over seventy years. She was a WOMAN. As such the men at the GC and everywhere were actually under her Authority because God said so. That is also FACT! That evidence alone wipes out all the male ego strutting efforts to keep women from LEADERSHIP in the SDA Church .org. I am afraid that the males who are against "women's ordination" don't have a single scrap to stand on because Ellen White smashes all their paper houses to nothing. The damage has already been done my male friends. It is only the stubbornness of male ego that is holding up the train. Its coming in spite these male ego trippers. It is only a matter of "when".
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted December 4, 2011 Administrators Posted December 4, 2011 Show me that Gods opinion has changed since Eden and I will change my opinion. Mark Let's start with "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." God through Christ restored the oneness He had originally created. The curse of sin pronounced in Genesis was crushed as promised. If God did not change His opinion, we are all lost. "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted December 4, 2011 Administrators Posted December 4, 2011 "Yeah I've never seen any Biblical evidence that we are not to ordain women." Have you ever seen any Biblical evidence that says we should? Back when this Church was being formed the very same response was made to a number of steps to organize. This was James White's view as endorsed by Ellen White: Quote: If it be asked, Where are your plain texts of scripture for holding church property legally? we reply, The Bible does not furnish any; neither does it say that we should have a weekly paper, a steam printing-press, that we should publish books, build places of worship, and send out tents. Jesus says, 'Let your light so shine before men,' etc.'; but he does not give all the particulars how this shall be done. The church is left to move forward in the great work, praying for divine guidance, acting upon the most efficient plans for its accomplishment. We believe it safe to be governed by the following: RULE All means which, according to sound judgment, will advance the cause of truth, and are not forbidden by plain scripture declarations, should be employed. [JW, RH, April 26, 1860] That guiding rule still holds. "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Show me that Gods opinion has changed since Eden and I will change my opinion. Mark Let's start with "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." God through Christ restored the oneness He had originally created. The curse of sin pronounced in Genesis was crushed as promised. If God did not change His opinion, we are all lost.
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 If God did not change His opinion, we are all lost.
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 And I think that the big problem on this subject is this: Many have imbibed secular ideologies that make certain cases. One of these is this idea that Gods original edict in Eden was "bigotted". That God is a "bigot". That God is "sexist". Now out of this secular (ultimately satanic) idea, has grown anti-Christian feminism. Many Christians now want to imbibe that feminism and in fact force it into the church. ---------------- The biggest danger is that when WE do not understand the source of our ideologies, we become the tools of satans efforts. Let us look at this argument in light of the Great Controversy. God decreed an edict in Eden that placed women subservient to men, (in the Lord). This is one of Gods original Decrees. Satan then places a counter argument in society that tells society (the world) to reject that decree. Christians, that are then heavily influenced to conform to the society that surrounds them, adopt this argument of Satans. Then they try to force it into the church with very poor reasoning and "proof texting". -------------- The crux of the matter is this. God gave an edict in Eden. He has not rescinded it. Satan is seeking to overturn it. ---------------- Misguided but enthusiastic Christians (and some false shepherds) that have mistakenly imbibed secular ideologies, then attempt to force this attack of Satans, on Gods original decree, on the church. And all they have to support their argument is charges such as: "bigot" "sexist" Or proof texting which is taken out of context. Never really understanding they need a "thus saith the Lord" to sway one who accepts Biblical Authority as their basis for their world view. ------------------- With that in mind, if you are going to make the argument, please avoid secular arguments and use the Bible alone. But you are going to struggle because you will find no support for Satan's attack on God's order in the Home and Church in the Bible... If you can and do, then I will accept Gods "new" order... But as of yet, no one here has presented any such evidence.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted December 4, 2011 Administrators Posted December 4, 2011 You were the one that characterized what God said in Genesis to be His "opinion". I was merely echoing your characterization of God. I don't believe "opinion" is the right word. And as for God not changing, that would refer to His character, His very nature. Don't confuse that with God changing His methods or manner of dealing with His creatures. I don't think God needs to change His mind. That seems to be your idea. As we all understand, imbedded in that curse was the seed of a promise of salvation. He didn't change anything. That was His contingency plan all along if mankind failed the test. He already had a back-up plan to overcome the curse and power of sin. But you know that already... "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 You were the one that characterized what God said in Genesis to be His "opinion". I was merely echoing your characterization of God. I don't believe "opinion" is the right word. And as for God not changing, that would refer to His character, His very nature. Don't confuse that with God changing His methods or manner of dealing with His creatures. I don't think God needs to change His mind. That seems to be your idea. As we all understand, imbedded in that curse was the seed of a promise of salvation. He didn't change anything. That was His contingency plan all along if mankind failed the test. He already had a back-up plan to overcome the curse and power of sin. But you know that already... I am pleased that you agree that God does not change His mind. It was important you clarified that. So as I follow your reasoning, I notice your argument unfolds like this: 1. God gave an edict in Eden. 2. That edict would be rescinded at the Cross. 3. It would not be binding after Gods provision for the problem would be met. Now there is one "BIG" problem with that... Why is it that Gods original "edict" was "promoted" by Paul "AFTER" the Cross? The original "edict" was still in force after the cross. That simple fact tears the above argument to pieces. If that is not your argument and I have misunderstood it, then please clearly and concisely present your argument. But if it is your argument, it has exactly the same flavour as the argument that the Cross got rid of the Sabbath...
miz3 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Doesn't matter how logical you are on this. Those that want womens ordination at any cost, will not see it. They are driven by their secularised notions of equality in leadership between men and women. That is their highest principle and they will use any rotten board to shore that desire up... It is the way of the flesh. Twilight, I generally have great respect for your posts, however this post is not like you as I know you. I find this post nasty, illogical, and not based on any Biblical evidence. In fact there is no Biblical evidence that precludes woman from being Pastors/Ministers/Ordained/Leaders at all levels/etc. In fact the Bible is to be last Word on this issue and as I have already said the Bible does not prohibit woman from any office/standing that is held by any male person today. The only "way of the flesh" I see is "men/males" who are sooooo angry that anyone would even suggest that women/females would be considered for anything a man/male would hold. These angry males are the ones leaning on their "flesh" to continue to be the only dominant ones around and they angrily cite the Bible erroneously as the reason for their "male egotistical stand". I find such things unGodly, unChristian, and definitely unBiblical. It is clear Ellen White was indeed ordained as the credentials point out. It is also a FACT that Ellen White was THE SIGNIFICANT LEADER of the SDA Church .org for over seventy years. She was a WOMAN. As such the men at the GC and everywhere were actually under her Authority because God said so. That is also FACT! That evidence alone wipes out all the male ego strutting efforts to keep women from LEADERSHIP in the SDA Church .org. I am afraid that the males who are against "women's ordination" don't have a single scrap to stand on because Ellen White smashes all their paper houses to nothing. The damage has already been done my male friends. It is only the stubbornness of male ego that is holding up the train. Its coming in spite these male ego trippers. It is only a matter of "when".
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted December 4, 2011 Administrators Posted December 4, 2011 Why start there would be my first response? Why not? Originally Posted By: Twilight II}Could it be that you are using this text out of context as a proof text for your position?[/quote I am not into proof-texting. And context at verse 10 refers to the curse of sin - "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." We are not talking about "order in the home." We are talking about the church. We are addressing "oneness is Christ." The church is the body of Christ. Originally Posted By: Twilight II So Tom' date=' where do you get this idea that the "edict" in Eden has been rescinded? "Edict" is your word, not mine. I said "curse". And "rescinded" is also your word. But I can work with it. Are you saying that God's pronouncement of the consequences of sin were forever irreversible? What meaning does Christ have for you if He does not "rescind" the curse of sin? It doesn't matter whether you want to start with Galatians 3:28 or not. We can finish with it too. Christ is the beginning and the end. Originally Posted By: Twilight II May I suggest that you have adopted Secular Ideologies and principles and are now trying to read them "back" into the bible, to justify them? [/quote'] I quote Scripture and you label it "Secular Ideologies"?!?! I reject your notion that those who support women's ordination are of a secular mindset. Such labeling is unhelpful. And it holds no more true for those in support than it does for those opposed. This is a modern construct anyway. Hebrew thinking as well reflected in Scripture knows no secular/sacred dichotomy. "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
miz3 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 God made a judgement in Eden. Eve decided she wanted "control". So God issued a judgement on that, a consequence. She was to be subservient to her husband, which represented on a practical level her subservience to God. Many here argue that that has changed, that that "edict" has been removed. But I am only interested in Gods "opinion" on this. I have seen no Biblical evidence that God has rescinded that principle. The only evidence presented here has been secular in origin. Are you certain that you got the "Edenic edict" correct? You state that Eve was to be subservient to "her husband". Does this mean that Eve was to be subservient to ALL MEN? I am not going to argue that anything was changed, I do however question whether you have the curse to Eve correct or not and just how that curse was to be applied. Does this mean in your view that "women in general" are really to be "slaves" to their husband masters and men in general. Just how far does this curse go in your view? It seems to me you have gone tooooo far with your chauvinism. I see some problems with your view.
ClubV12 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 miz3 says, "God placed Ellen White over all the men in the SDA Church right from its conception." That is an opinion, nothing more. Personally, I think it's a deliberate lie designed to mislead others from the truth. There is substantial evidence that shows Sister White acknowledged supported and followed the counsel of the Brethren. She respected and submitted her own self to the will and direction of the General Conference. When the G.C. said go to Australia, when she didn't want to, she went anyway. Because she recognized that that counsel was the highest authority on earth, exceeding even her status as a prophet. She submitted herself to the counsel of the brethren as an example we should all follow. The G.C. has not yet rendered an opinion on the ordination of women. Because it is NOT as clear as some on this thread fail to recognize. The arguments are ropes of sand, they carry no weight, there is no clear and convincing counsel on the issue. If there was, the matter would have been settled years ago. I will wait, respect and accept the counsel of the highest authority on earth concerning this matter, as Sister White did as well.
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