TED on Women in Leadership

December 11, 2011

[That is FACT straight from the Bible and her position/leadership should never ever be demeaned or minimized in any way shape or form as some have done on this and other threads.

Here's another fact straight from the Bible, Both women mentioned in the OT that could qualify as a "leader" were both also described as prophets. Ellen White has also been described as a prophet. Which other woman leader in Scripture was not a prophet?

December 11, 2011

Yes. Please keep remarks addressed only to ideas and not at each other's throats.

Who exactly has been at another's throat?

December 11, 2011

I have to agree that miz3 is reading and understanding these passages correctly.

Obviously, some of us here as well as most of those in the past, disagree with both miz and you.

December 11, 2011

Why is a woman unfit for the lesser position of pastor?

I haven't seen that as being the problem Tom. There are already woman pastors in the SDA church. There just not ordained. I happen to know two of them. One I know personally, the other one I've been to her church, when she was the pastor of the Boston Temple, on a number of occasions. She now pastors, I believe, one of the biggest churches in the denomination in California. And at least the one here is very happy to be a pastor and not be ordained. I'd be very interested in how many here know of any woman pastors and what there feelings are on this subject! As I've mentioned the ones I know have no problem with not being ordained. Maybe some day they might change there minds.

December 11, 2011

Deborah was a judge in the time of the judges which was a period of time when the judges were the leaders of the people.

Yes we agree, however, it should be self evident from the testimony of both the Scripture and EGW that the judges were not God's intention for leadership. Judges were an emergency method that was instituted by God in order to preserve Israel during great times of unfaithfulness. Judges are not to be used to determine what God desires from His people. In fact, judges were needed because the male leaders (there were no female leaders only heads of tribes and families) of Israel and the men of Israel failed to treat the priesthood as the spiritual authority that He intended it to be.It should also be noted that the majority of judges mentioned were men of flawed character and would probably never been chosen to lead in any other circumstances.Any attempt to apply the execption to the norm seems rather tenuous.

December 11, 2011

Comparing a Pastor to a prophet; you can't!

A prophet has an entirely different roll, no recognition, ordination or acceptance from the church, man or the world is required, desired or needed. They stand unique and apart from the church, the people and the world.

An official Pastor is not a prophet, he/she works for and is paid by the church. His or her calling may or may not be recognized by man with an ordination ceremony. They may receive a license to preach and teach and a salary for doing so. A Pastor cannot make decisions or choices that are against the guidance of his/her direct supervisors. If they chose to ignore directions from those who pay them to serve, their only option is to terminate their employment and become a layman, self supporting. Some have done this, in some cases there is no shame in doing so, they simply have received a different calling. That is between them and God, it may or may not be recognized by man.

December 11, 2011

The standing of a prophet as being ordained/appointed by God places that person in a position of leadership.

There is no argument here but the question is what kind of leadership? You argue from the mindset that the curse of Gen. 3 is itself the problem and that there should be no chain of command based on Gen.3 but only on whoever feels the call to lead. Or in other words God has no special calling for either men or women. The office of prophet does not, as you state, place the prophet in the position of leadership as does the office of pastor/teacher. This should be obvious in almost every prophet's life in the Bible. Prophets were the mediums for God's special revelations but not for the everyday runnings of either the kingdom or the priesthood.Prophets were more the spiritual counselors than the spiritual leaders of Israel. Philip's 7 daughters did not make them the leaders in Philip's home.Ellen White's gift hardly made her the spiritual leader of either her home or the SDA organization.

December 11, 2011

There is no argument here but the question is what kind of leadership? You argue from the mindset that the curse of Gen. 3 is itself the problem and that there should be no chain of command based on Gen.3 but only on whoever feels the call to lead. Or in other words God has no special calling for either men or women. The office of prophet does not, as you state, place the prophet in the position of leadership as does the office of pastor/teacher. This should be obvious in almost every prophet's life in the Bible. Prophets were the mediums for God's special revelations but not for the everyday runnings of either the kingdom or the priesthood.Prophets were more the spiritual counselors than the spiritual leaders of Israel. Philip's 7 daughters did not make them the leaders in Philip's home.Ellen White's gift hardly made her the spiritual leader of either her home or the SDA organization.

Excellent points Doug. Kind of reminds me of Jeremiah, I believe, how many times did he say to the Israelite Nation to heed Gods warning about Babylon? And they just kept ignoring him. And that can be said of all the Prophets, starting from Samuel. It also reminds me of what's taking place here, on this thread and many others. Where we have people on two sides of an issue, is this not when a person of God is needed to settle an issue?? Like a Prophet maybe????? It just amaze's me that when she is needed, we than decide, oh no than she would be above the Bible. But at the same time we accept her, but we can't use her??????????? Can't have it both ways. Makes no sense at all!!!!!

December 11, 2011

Originally Posted By: miz3

[That is FACT straight from the Bible and her position/leadership should never ever be demeaned or minimized in any way shape or form as some have done on this and other threads.

Here's another fact straight from the Bible, Both women mentioned in the OT that could qualify as a "leader" were both also described as prophets. Ellen White has also been described as a prophet. Which other woman leader in Scripture was not a prophet?

Not relevant.

December 11, 2011

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Deborah was a judge in the time of the judges which was a period of time when the judges were the leaders of the people.

Yes we agree, however, it should be self evident from the testimony of both the Scripture and EGW that the judges were not God's intention for leadership. Judges were an emergency method that was instituted by God in order to preserve Israel during great times of unfaithfulness. Judges are not to be used to determine what God desires from His people. In fact, judges were needed because the male leaders (there were no female leaders only heads of tribes and families) of Israel and the men of Israel failed to treat the priesthood as the spiritual authority that He intended it to be.It should also be noted that the majority of judges mentioned were men of flawed character and would probably never been chosen to lead in any other circumstances.Any attempt to apply the execption to the norm seems rather tenuous.

Judges were called of God to be Leaders. There is no where in Scripture where God says that the Priesthood of the OT Sanctuary were to wield the ultimate power.

If you disagree then please Book, Chapter, and Verses please.

Moses was a Judge of Israel and was over the Priests in God's pecking order.

So again please show Book, Chapter, and Verses where the Priests are designated by God to be His direct rulers of His People.

December 11, 2011

Originally Posted By: miz3

The standing of a prophet as being ordained/appointed by God places that person in a position of leadership.

There is no argument here but the question is what kind of leadership? You argue from the mindset that the curse of Gen. 3 is itself the problem and that there should be no chain of command based on Gen.3 but only on whoever feels the call to lead. Or in other words God has no special calling for either men or women. The office of prophet does not, as you state, place the prophet in the position of leadership as does the office of pastor/teacher. This should be obvious in almost every prophet's life in the Bible. Prophets were the mediums for God's special revelations but not for the everyday runnings of either the kingdom or the priesthood.Prophets were more the spiritual counselors than the spiritual leaders of Israel. Philip's 7 daughters did not make them the leaders in Philip's home.Ellen White's gift hardly made her the spiritual leader of either her home or the SDA organization.

Samuel, Deborah both would break that mold. They were both Prophets, both Judges and both ruled (Administrate) all the People of God in every aspect.

This clearly demonstrates that God recognizes women as Leaders/Administrators of His People.

As such there is no reason for the SDA Church .org to follow God and recognize women the same as God has.

December 11, 2011

Quote:

As such there is no reason for the SDA Church .org to follow God and recognize women the same as God has.

This is a good thought of which I agree I think.That is IF you meant no reason NOT to recognize women the same as God does. Thanks miz3

December 11, 2011

Quote:

As such there is no reason for the SDA Church .org to follow God and recognize women the same as God has.

This is a good thought of which I agree I think.That is IF you meant no reason NOT to recognize women the same as God does. Thanks miz3

The SDA Church .org should recognize women Leaders/Administrators of His People the same as God has recognized women as Leaders/Administrators of His People in every age.

That means Women should be Ordained as Leaders/Administrators the same as men are in the SDA Church .org.

December 11, 2011

December 11, 2011

What's irrelevant is using the example of ANY prophet's status to support ordination of women, pro or con. A prophet gets his/her authority directly from the throne of God.

Ordination is a function of "man" recognizing a persons calling and dedication to the service of the Lord.

December 11, 2011

What you are saying here re Huldah seems a little off-balance.

The King and his people did not seek her personal council or authority, the scripture is clear. They sought the Lord's council. 2Kings 22:8-20. Notice vs 9:

"the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them

that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD." Was any of this

money delivered to Huldah? No. It was not. It is because she did not have "oversight

in the house of the Lord." She was a prophet; and prophets don't have that.

The nature of "authority" and prophetic ministry in the church continues to be misunderstood. Vs 13 of this passage clearly tells us the King was seeking the Lord's council, and gender had/has nothing to do with should we listen or not to someone who has it.

Just like Ellen White was not the boss of the church; nor does our doctrine originate from her; Huldah was also a prophetess, and had no authority over the church, or of

the secular kingdom it was in. Huldah and Ellen White could only tell people what

they knew. (1 John 1:1-3), and then it was up to the people to listen or not.

I learned a long time ago to listen to women's council in the church. Take my wife.

When she says that I need to start taking better care to keep the kitchen in our

house in better shape; I know what would happen if I don't. It's not that she is my

"boss;" but we need to get along and be able to live with one another, and do what's

right so we listen to one another. When I listen to her - OH THE REWARDS ARE GREAT!!

And if I decide not to listen to her, it does not mean I am the boss either. Might just mean that I am stubborn and wont listen to something that would help and bless.

I have also seen the value in listening to Ellen White, another woman in the church. My spiritual walk has been so improved by doing so, but she has no personal authority

over me - any authority there is of the Lord.

If Huldah were alive today; she; like the mother of Jesus, would tell us: Do whatever

he tells you." This does not make her our boss, or to have "authority" over us in

anything. (1 John 1:1-3)

Good post OA.

December 11, 2011

Prophets were more the spiritual counselors than the spiritual leaders of Israel. Philip's 7 daughters did not make them the leaders in Philip's home.Ellen White's gift hardly made her the spiritual leader of either her home or the SDA organization.

Good point.

Spiritual counselors are not the same as spiritual leaders.

December 11, 2011

OA you misunderstand the nature of any Prophet/Leader/Judge/Administrator/etc.'s Authority.

All of these People whether they be Moses, Samuel, Huldah, Deborah, Miriam, Ellen White, etc. have Authority only because God says they do. It is a call from God.

None of these People ever have Authority in their own right. The reason the king and his people consulted Huldah was because she had Authority from God and would speak to them as to what God wanted done. Moses did the same thing. Moses had no Authority of his own. In fact in Egypt the Children of Israel told in the beginning they had no reason to listen to him because Moses was not their Authority. Then Moses showed them God's signs and wonders and told them the Lord God had sent Him. It was this evidence that God had "called" Moses that gave Moses his Authority.

It was similarly obvious to the king and his other powerful men that Huldah was "called" of God and as such, like Moses, had Authority over them because she (Huldah) would tell them God's orders.

Moses and Samuel did exactly the same. These two men were no more than messengers of what God wanted done. Remember the boy Samuel, his only Authority was that he was to deliver a message from God to Eli. That is all anyone "called" by God to Authority ever does. They deliver messages from God.

Today that is exactly what our SDA Church .org leaders are supposed to do. They are supposed to be just Messengers "sent" and "called" by God to deliver what God wants done.

Our ministers, Union Presidents, GC President, etc. are to be nothing more then Messengers, God's Messengers. If they exceed their Authority as such then they are bad messengers and are in it like Balaam for the coin, power, and prestige. God did not "call" our SDA Church .org ministers, Union Presidents, GC President to be Power brokers in the SDA Church .org. God called SDA Church .org ministers, Union Presidents, GC Presidents, etc. just like God called Moses, Samuel, Huldah, Deborah, Miriam, Ellen White to exercise Authority to "serve" and "give Messages" to His People. There Authority comes direct from God.

If however our current ministers, Union Presidents, GC President, etc. are in the game to simply exercise authority, gain power, enrich themselves like Balaam they have betrayed their "call" from God.

You see OA no one at anytime on this sinful planet is ever "called" by God to actually be anything more than a simple MESSENGER.

This is why it is demeaning and minimizing for any of us to say that these "called out ones" like Huldah are "nothing more than messengers". This like making fun of Elisha. In doing such we do not show the proper respect for any of those "called" by God to be His MESSENGERS.

God expects all of us to show those "called by Him" to be MESSENGERS great respect because there soul duty and job on this earth is to be "MESSENGERS" and as such they have God's direct Authority.

This is why it is wrong to say, "Huldah was 'just' a messenger" as if she was irrelevant and small. NO, NO, Huldah was not and never ever was irrelevant and small. Huldah had all the Authority of God as His MESSENGER.

To be called by God to be a MESSENGER as was Huldah and all the others I have mentioned is a sacred and awesome "CALL". Such is never to be taken lightly. Some today as did Balaam take their call as MESSENGERS lightly are in it only for their personal gain.

Fortunately some are also MESSENGERS today because they are indeed "called" by God and they respect the awesome responsibility that has been placed on their shoulders just as those in the past did, like Huldah.

God does not and has never ever made His Call to be a MESSENGER like Hulda, and the others, including our own Union Presidents, ministers, GC President, etc. simply ONLY A MAN'S (MALE) CALL.

The Bible demonstrates that God calls both men and women to His Gospel Ministry as Leader/Administrators because they are all to be ONLY MESSENGERS OF GOD AND WHAT HE WANTS HIS PEOPLE TO BE AND DO.

So again I call us all to get behind the Truth and let us in the SDA Church .org include our wonderful women, who are truly called by God to become GOD'S MESSENGERS just our men who have been "called" by God and "serve" (not wield power) God's People.

I will stand for this, who will join me because it is wrong and evil to deny God's chosen women to be His Leader/Administrator MESSENGERS.

December 19, 2011

miz3 wrote; ""Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 9 Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the LORD and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” 10 Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.

11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Acbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD’s anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”

14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District.

15 She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, 16 ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all the idols their hands have made,[a] my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’”

So they took her answer back to the king."

2Kings 22:8-20.

Here is the text about Huldah in its context. Notice the men, all them, sought the council of the woman Huldah to know what the Lord God says.

Clearly she had authority over the whole nation because even the king inquired of her. If you wanted to know the Lord's will then you asked Huldah a woman. It didn't matter that you were a man, you still had to humble yourself in order to know what God required. God spoke through a woman to all those powerful men.

Why cannot the SDA Church .org and its individuals accept that God can still speak through Women today who He has called to the Gospel Ministry/Administration just as God called both men/women in the days of the Children of Israel?

God placed Huldah over all those men. God can place women over men today as well. Why do fight against the Lord and His Will?

I am shocked that anyone would not know this. However I am happy to help anyone find understanding anytime I can."

Actually, the woman they went to was not in a position of authority over these men! She was a prophetess, and God used her to relay a message to these men.

But, these men were the ones in authority. That's why God judged them!

But, I am not at all shocked that some people won't see this for what it really is. It wasn't any different with David and the Prophet Nathan. David was the one in authority, even though God used Nathan to deliver messages to David.

December 19, 2011

miz3 wrote; "As regards Deborah:

"After Ehud died, the Israelites once again did evil in the eyes of the LORD. 2 So the LORD sold them into the hands of Jabin, a king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth Haggoyim. 3 Because he had nine hundred iron chariots and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the LORD for help.

4 Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading[a] Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’”

8 Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.”

9 “Very well,” Deborah said, “I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh, 10 where he summoned Zebulun and Naphtali. Ten thousand men followed him, and Deborah also went with him.

11 Now Heber the Kenite had left the other Kenites, the descendants of Hobab, Moses’ brother-in-law,[c] and pitched his tent by the great tree in Zaanannim near Kedesh.

12 When they told Sisera that Barak son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor, 13 Sisera gathered together his nine hundred iron chariots and all the men with him, from Harosheth Haggoyim to the Kishon River.

14 Then Deborah said to Barak, “Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?” So Barak went down Mount Tabor, followed by ten thousand men. 15 At Barak’s advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera abandoned his chariot and fled on foot. 16 But Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim. All the troops of Sisera fell by the sword; not a man was left.

17 Sisera, however, fled on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because there were friendly relations between Jabin king of Hazor and the clan of Heber the Kenite.

18 Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, “Come, my lord, come right in. Don’t be afraid.” So he entered her tent, and she put a covering over him.

19 “I’m thirsty,” he said. “Please give me some water.” She opened a skin of milk, gave him a drink, and covered him up.

20 “Stand in the doorway of the tent,” he told her. “If someone comes by and asks you, ‘Is anyone here?’ say ‘No.’”

21 But Jael, Heber’s wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.

22 Barak came by in pursuit of Sisera, and Jael went out to meet him. “Come,” she said, “I will show you the man you’re looking for.” So he went in with her, and there lay Sisera with the tent peg through his temple—dead.

23 On that day God subdued Jabin, the Canaanite king, before the Israelites. 24 And the hand of the Israelites grew stronger and stronger against Jabin, the Canaanite king, until they destroyed him."

Judges 4. (the whole chapter).

Here is the text for Deborah in all its context.

1. Notice verse four, that Deborah was not only a Prophetess but THE LEADER OF ISRAEL.

Deborah was not just a leader in Israel, she was THE LEADER.

2. Notice also that it was God who made Deborah THE LEADER over all those men in Israel. That would be akin today of being GC President Ted Wilson.

The fact that she was in addition a prophetess makes in the mold of Samuel before Saul became king.

I believe this FACT says that God appoints women the same as He appoints men to Lead His People.

There is nothing hidden here it is all clear cut and plain except to those who reject the Truth.

3. Deborah did not "enlist the help" of a man. She actually commanded the man (Barak by name) to do as the Lord desired. She did not need the man, she commanded the man. Please get the story straight.

4. It was the man, Barak by name, who was afraid to go without having the protection of Deborah (the woman) to hide behind. Again, you must get the story straight.

As the Bible points out because the man, Barak by name, was afraid to obey, he did not get the credit the woman, Deborah was willing to give him. So the credit went to another woman named Jael.

This marvelous story tells us that God does indeed use women to lead His People. It is just phoney male posturing that tries to twist the Scripture to say something else.

I am surprised that this story actually needs to be explained. The language is clear so that even the young ones can see the Truth."

She was not "The leader" of Israel. Barak was supposed to lead the army, but lost that to Deborah because of his lack of faith! Deborah said that herself in verses 8 and 9!

Deborah said this to the shame of Barak, because a woman would lead instead of a man.

December 19, 2011

Its very obvious in both cases these woman and if we read the other stories of men, were Prophets. Which if we read correctly, the Kings would always ask for advice. It also looks like most didn't like and or rejected the advice of the Prophets. Of course there were times when the Prophets would come to the King's and tell them that they had a message from God. Again we do see were the Kings that didn't like what they were told, rejected the advice to there own detriment(sp). Look at what we do with EGW. If we claim that the Prophets are the actual leaders than why do we seem to reject EGW? Just as obviously many rejected the Prophets of the OT, be it woman or men. It also seems to me that the women where not rejected, but the men seemed to be quite a bit in the OT. In the NT it doesn't seen like we have prophets per say, but we have Jesus who chooses Apostle's and also has disciples. Of course there was John the Baptist, whom I'm guessing would be considered a prophet. That I will leave for others to decide for themselves.

December 20, 2011

miz3 wrote; ""Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 9 Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the LORD and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” 10 Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.

11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Acbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD’s anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”

14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District.

15 She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, 16 ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all the idols their hands have made,[a] my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’”

So they took her answer back to the king."

2Kings 22:8-20.

Here is the text about Huldah in its context. Notice the men, all them, sought the council of the woman Huldah to know what the Lord God says.

Clearly she had authority over the whole nation because even the king inquired of her. If you wanted to know the Lord's will then you asked Huldah a woman. It didn't matter that you were a man, you still had to humble yourself in order to know what God required. God spoke through a woman to all those powerful men.

Why cannot the SDA Church .org and its individuals accept that God can still speak through Women today who He has called to the Gospel Ministry/Administration just as God called both men/women in the days of the Children of Israel?

God placed Huldah over all those men. God can place women over men today as well. Why do fight against the Lord and His Will?

I am shocked that anyone would not know this. However I am happy to help anyone find understanding anytime I can."

Actually, the woman they went to was not in a position of authority over these men! She was a prophetess, and God used her to relay a message to these men.

But, these men were the ones in authority. That's why God judged them!

But, I am not at all shocked that some people won't see this for what it really is. It wasn't any different with David and the Prophet Nathan. David was the one in authority, even though God used Nathan to deliver messages to David.

Please read what I wrote also about Moses, Samuel, etc. None of these people had Authority within themselves. Their Authority came from God. All of them were nothing more than Messengers just like Huldah.

You fail to grasp this FACT. Their Authority comes only from God because none of them are anything more than just Messengers.

The same is to be true today for all our SDA Pastors, Union Presidents, GC Presidents, etc. They have been (or are supposed to have been) called by God to be nothing more than Messengers.

Why is this true FACT so hard for you to grasp?

Authority is not something a human has that makes them over other humans. Such constructs are pagan constructs. The pagans believe they have authority of their own. That such authority comes from them the human.

Authority comes only from God and that Authority from God is to be only a Messenger. Moses was only a Messenger. It was Moses' sole and complete job to relay God's messages to the Children of Israel. Moses had no other job. As a Messenger of God Moses and Huldah carried with them the Authority of God. They had no Authority of their own.

The same is to be true today of our Union Presidents, GC President, our Pastors, etc. they are ALL TO BE NOTHING MORE THAN MESSENGERS.

If they see themselves as something else then they are NOT FROM GOD.

God calls only MESSENGERS. No human is to be anything else.

Thus, when you say, "Huldah was only a messenger and had no authority":

1. You demonstrate that you view "authority" the same way as do pagans, which is that the human has their own authority to rule over other humans.

2. You demonstrate a lack of understanding in that ALL THOSE CALLED BY GOD ARE NOTHING MORE THAN MESSENGERS.

3. You demean and ridicule the office of those chosen by God whether they be women or men.

4. You demonstrate that you are particular about ridiculing and demeaning women only because they are women.

5. You demonstrate that you do not understand the Bible and how God works in calling humans to do His Work.

By the way David was also nothing more than a Messenger for God. The king part of his life was a pagan concession God allowed the Children of Israel to have because they moaned and complained to be like the nations around them to have a king.

Such pagan kings had and believed they ruled by their own authority. Thus, kingship of human is a pagan construct. As such from your own words you define "authority" in the same way pagans define "authority". Is this the ground you want to stand on?

God has a different definition of authority, it is called "messenger". The human entity has no "authority" of their own. These Messengers like David, Moses, Deborah, Huldah, Samuel, etc. had no authority of their own in any capacity. Their "authority" came from God simply as His Messenger.

Why do you insist on using a pagan definition of authority in all your posts?

I use only God's definition. And according to God's definition of authority it can be and is actually carried by women and men whom God calls to be nothing more than His Messengers.

December 20, 2011