Christian Perfection

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I continue to sin - deliberately.

I don't sin by accident. I fall into it. I am sucked in. I enjoy sinning or I wouldn't sin.

Praise God that I serve a forgiving God. ANd when I sin - HE forgives.

Being sucked into it is perhaps easier to remedy than loving it hanging on to it, but Jesus is still the answer.

Strange, wonderful things happen when we behold Christ...

I think you are right Gail. Personally all the above applies to me. I get sucked into it and I also enjoy the sinning while I am doing it or I would not do it. Of course afterwards I hate the sin. But the hatred doesn't last long enough for I continue to delve into it again. I have a constant battle with self. Like you say - I have to keep beholding Christ and that is the answer. A daily answer. Not a one time shot.

[Gail]

Quote:

I think you are right Gail. Personally all the above applies to me. I get sucked into it and I also enjoy the sinning while I am doing it or I would not do it. Of course afterwards I hate the sin. But the hatred doesn't last long enough for I continue to delve into it again. I have a constant battle with self. Like you say - I have to keep beholding Christ and that is the answer. A daily answer. Not a one time shot.

I SO know what you mean!

He is such a friend, isn't He? And it is when we look at ourselves in the mirror of the law AND at His goodness that we realise even more how much of a friend He is!

((((( Woody )))))

[Gail]

I gotta tell you that when we talk about the depth of His grace and the potential, it thrills me so much that I almost jump out of my chair!!!

Are you with me, Woody? :)

[Woody]

I gotta tell you that when we talk about the depth of His grace and the potential, it thrills me so much that I almost jump out of my chair!!!

Are you with me, Woody?

[joeb]

@ Joeb- Nice!

What, then, should be our focus?

Good question, Gail.

I believe it to be twofold. 1. Continual contact with Christ. 2. A, to quote Ellen White, strong determination that we set every day, and moment-by-moment throughout each day refresh, as our #1 goal in life that nothing come between us and Christ. My experience has taught me that nothing less will suffice.

It is as we begin to co-operate with Christ in working for others that we lose sight of ourselves and become consumed with His love for others. Our problem is that we live for ourselves rather than for others. If we lived for the salvation of others we would see a huge change in the effect of the gospel in our own lives. It is in this area of our lives that we most often go where Jesus would not have us go, and where our wills so often part with His will for us.

Read Ministry of Healing and see what Ellen White says about our goals, our motives, and our priorities, and what they should be. I've been reading it and I have to say I've never seen anyone who actually lives the way Ellen White says we should, and that includes me.

[Gail]

Joeb, can I ask you a question?

Can you post more?

I'm wondering if she was thinking of Daniel, who "purposed in his heart" that he would not eat of the king's food or whatever it was.

Even if he didn't do it perfectly, he had a mind to. For some that might be perfectionism, but Daniel considered himself a sinner. He identified himself with God's erring people.

Is there a time and place for "purposing" in our hearts? What is the benefit to that?

[joeb]

Joeb, can I ask you a question?

Can you post more?

[Gail]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. On this subject, or in general? The only time I can post any more is when I'm in the public library as I no longer have internet access where I'm living. As a result my opportunity to post is quite limited.

Just more in general, please!

Originally Posted By: joeb

I have a question for you too. How did Daniel "imperfectly" overcome all temptation and corrupting influences? Does "imperfectly" overcoming temptations mean giving in to some, or part of one of them? If so, how then does Ellen White say Daniel overcame all of them?

I don't know how perfectly he obeyed. I'm taking the viewpoint of his still being in need of a Saviour the whole way through his life, which I reckon is safe to say.

BUT- We do know that he will is saved, for:

Quote:

Daniel 12:13- But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Now (let's say) if he went through his whole life needing a Saviour, what made the assurance of his being able to "rest, and stand in thy lot"?

[Lysimachus]

There will definitely be a time before the close of probation when God's people, namely the 144,000, will reach perfection. Although they themselves will not know it, nor will they boast of it.

• Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. It is the privilege of every Christian, not only to look for, but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain.--COL 69 (1900). {LDE 39}

It is dangerous to assert that since nobody is perfect, it must therefore be impossible. That nobody is perfect now, even as Sister Whites states in other passages, it does not mean it is impossible. The above statement shows that it is possible. We can become perfect, but it will require all for this to happen. It will require supernatural effort of monumental proportions to enable us to do this, and it will not transpire until God's people have PRESSED TOGETHER, so that they might be of the same mind, the same heart, perfectly joined together, and all speaking the same thing (1 Cor. 1:10). This is the unity that Christ prayed for in John 17.

We will still have that "earthiness" so long as we are on this planet. But we will have overcome every sin in our lives, unbeknownst to us--then Christ can come and claim us as His own. That is what we are called to do--to reflect Christ perfectly--to prove to the world and Satan that it COULD be done.

If it could not be done, Satan would have one up on God--"See God--you played foul--you told your people to strive for something that could not be attained". But the Devil will be defeated, because God is going to prove to him that he was WRONG--that it WAS possible for humanity to become perfect through the power of Christ.

[Gibs]

Lysimachus

Amen and Amen,

And Jesus said,

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

You may be 'toast' Gerry - but I've never been burnt by the good taste of your views of late. Keep up the good work.

When I encounter a position on grace that looks off the road to me, I will talk of the law. And when I see a position on the law that looks off the road to me, then I talk more of grace. This is one of those times for the latter.

[Gerr]

As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command may be accomplished in His strength. All His biddings are enablings.

Notice, Gerry, that as the will of man co-operates with the will of God that it becomes omnipotent. All God's biddings are enablings.

I, for one, will never advance the position that sin is more powerful than God. I'm not claiming perfection, but will never say God cannot accomplish that in me which I am unable to do for myself. What I have not yet seen in reality, I can see by faith.

God is omnipotent in all things, not just in some things. He has the power to overcome sin in our lives, if we truly want it.

Why don't we see perfection of character? Because of unbelief. What we don't believe in, nor consequently set as our goal, we cannot reach.

Co-operation involves the will. I've said this before and I'll say it again. If you mean overcoming willful/deliberate/intentional transgressions of God's law, I completely agree with you that we MUST cease doing them by the time probation closes. The perfection that I understand Gibs to be advocating is total victory even over un-intentional sins that are purely the product of being in this sinful flesh. For instance, EGW says, "Forgetfulness is sin." 3T p,13. And, "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression." CH p.38.

Are you prepared to claim victory over these kinds of sins?

[Gibs]

Here is a little different approach by EGW for all who are SDA's here on this subject.

"Your energies are required to co-operate with God. Without this, if it were possible to force upon you with a hundredfold greater intensity the influences of the Spirit of God, it would not make you a Christian, a fit subject for heaven. The stronghold of Satan would not be broken. There must be the willing and the doing on the part of the receiver. There must be an action, represented as coming out from the world and being separate. There must be a doing of the words of Christ. The soul must be emptied of self, that Christ may pour his Spirit into the vacuum. Christ must be chosen as the heavenly guest. The will must be placed on the side of God's will. Then there is a new heart, and new, holy resolves. It is Jesus enthroned in the soul that makes every action easy in his service".-- S. of T., 1891, No. 8. {HL 304.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

You may be 'toast' Gerry - but I've never been burnt by the good taste of your views of late. Keep up the good work.

When I encounter a position on grace that looks off the road to me, I will talk of the law. And when I see a position on the law that looks off the road to me, then I talk more of grace. This is one of those times for the latter.

Ahhhh. I had thought you were finally converted to liberalism. But even small steps are a step forward. Congratulations.

[M. T. Cross]

It not only is possible but is expected and is a must.

Christ in you and you too can be victorious.

All must be overcomers to be in that glorious heavenly kingdom.

Amen!

So Gibs..... you are saying that one needs to be perfect to make it to heaven?

[Gerr]

I continue to sin - deliberately.

I don't sin by accident. I fall into it. I am sucked in. I enjoy sinning or I wouldn't sin.

Praise God that I serve a forgiving God. ANd when I sin - HE forgives.

If that is the experience of every believer until Jesus comes, then we are a joke. And the gospel - God's power for salvation is a joke. And the God we serve whom we call omnipotent is a joke.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I continue to sin - deliberately.

I don't sin by accident. I fall into it. I am sucked in. I enjoy sinning or I wouldn't sin.

Praise God that I serve a forgiving God. ANd when I sin - HE forgives.

If that is the experience of every believer until Jesus comes, then we are a joke. And the gospel - God's power for salvation is a joke. And the God we serve whom we call omnipotent is a joke.

Oh but you don't realize. God has all the power in the world. He is not impotent. I am. I refuse His power for the sake of enjoying sin for a season.

Gerry. I had hopes for you. But it is clear that you have not been totally converted to liberalism. I am saddened.

[HappyFaith]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I continue to sin - deliberately.

I don't sin by accident. I fall into it. I am sucked in. I enjoy sinning or I wouldn't sin.

Praise God that I serve a forgiving God. ANd when I sin - HE forgives.

If that is the experience of every believer until Jesus comes, then we are a joke. And the gospel - God's power for salvation is a joke. And the God we serve whom we call omnipotent is a joke.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If that is the experience of every believer until Jesus comes' date=' then we are a joke. And the gospel - God's power for salvation is a joke. And the God we serve whom we call omnipotent is a joke.

I want to address this statement:

Originally Posted By: Woody

I continue to sin - deliberately.

I don't sin by accident. I fall into it. I am sucked in. I enjoy sinning or I wouldn't sin.

Praise God that I serve a forgiving God. ANd when I sin - HE forgives.

Quote:

"Falling... being sucked in..." is not deliberate. It is accident. Deliberation involves forethought. If you PLAN on sinning and keep doing it intentionally, God does not forgive such. It is like spitting in His face. [/quote']

Oh I do some planning so that I can sin. It does require some preparation. But afterwards I am sorry and pledge not to do it again. When I say I am sucked into it - I mean the Devil makes it SO appealing. After I realize what I did - it looks ugly. But then it's too late.

[HappyFaith]

Oh I do some planning so that I can sin. It does require some preparation. But afterwards I am sorry and pledge not to do it again. When I say I am sucked into it - I mean the Devil makes it SO appealing. After I realize what I did - it looks ugly. But then it's too late.

If you are planning, then the devil has nothing to do with it. You are on your own. That is sad.

[HappyFaith]

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." He did not say, "Hey there, bro...I know the devil made you do that, so just try to be more careful next time."

[Woody]

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." He did not say, "Hey there, bro...I know the devil made you do that, so just try to be more careful next time."

Thanks HappyFaith. I am more careful next time - but that is never enough. That which I would do I don't do and that which I don't want to do - I DO.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

That which I would do I don't do and that which I don't want to do - I DO.

Hmm....that wouldn't be the good John talking, eh?

[Hansen]

Several people are described in Scripture as being "perfect."

Jacob is called perfect in the following passage:

Ge 25:27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain <08535> man, dwelling in tents.

The KJV uses the English word "plain"; however, the same word is used to describe Job. Regarding Job, Scriptiure says he was perfect. As you can see, both use the number from Strong's number 8535. [i'm using the Online Bible which places a 0 in front of OT references.]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect <08535> and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Not a lot is said about the life of Job; however, much is known about the life of Jacob. He was far from sinless, yet the Bible calls him perfect. Since both Job and Jacob are described by the same word, we may conclude that Job was no more sinless than was Jacob.

Notice that Scripture also says the heart of David was perfect:

1 Ki. 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect <08003> with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

The Hebrew word is different than the one which describes Job and Jacob; however, it has essentially the same meaning. Both words refer to completeness or wholeness.

1 Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect <08003> with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

4 Nevertheless for David’s sake did the LORD his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem, to set up his son after him, and to establish Jerusalem:

5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

After the passage describes David as having a perfect heart, it then says he turned aside from the Lord only in the matter of Uriah. In fact, David committed numerous sins which are recorded in Scripture. For instance, when he numbered Israel, he came under deep conviction for his sin:

2 Sam. 24:10 And David’s heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

Elijah, translated without seeing death, was neither sinless nor is he described as perfect in Scripture. People who were described as "perfect" were not sinless.

[HappyFaith]

Originally Posted By: HappyFaith

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." He did not say, "Hey there, bro...I know the devil made you do that, so just try to be more careful next time."

Thanks HappyFaith. I am more careful next time - but that is never enough. That which I would do I don't do and that which I don't want to do - I DO.

That is good, my friend Woody. But are you not contradicting yourself? You said you planned and make preparation to sin. Now you quote Paul from Romans which reads that he did things he did NOT want to do, and that which he WANTED to do, he did NOT do. What you write seems to indicate that you are doing what you WANT to do. Or am I not understanding you correctly? (I do sometimes not understand little nuances in your language.)