Christian Perfection

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: HappyFaith

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." He did not say, "Hey there, bro...I know the devil made you do that, so just try to be more careful next time."

Thanks HappyFaith. I am more careful next time - but that is never enough. That which I would do I don't do and that which I don't want to do - I DO.

ESV | ‎Ro 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? ‎25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

ESV | ‎Ro 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, ‎4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

ESV | ‎Ro 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. ‎8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

ESV | ‎Ro 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. ‎10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ‎11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit

ESV | ‎Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ‎23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. ‎24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

[Gibs]

Empty Cross,

You ask me, "So Gibs..... you are saying that one needs to be perfect to make it to heaven"?

We are to live as He, Christ lived here on earth and He made that possible for us by His indwelling. His indwelling is the same power He had as a man like us as the Father was in Him. Christ in you is the Father in you,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God ( the Father ) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This is why Paul could say, Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

It takes complete surrender on our part and our will to do His will and to live by His Spirit and not the flesh, the flesh is weak but His Spirit is strong.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Gerry. I had hopes for you. But it is clear that you have not been totally converted to liberalism. I am saddened.

Not at chance. The testimony of the Word is too clear for me to adopt your view.

[Gerr]

Empty Cross,

You ask me, "So Gibs..... you are saying that one needs to be perfect to make it to heaven"?

We are to live as He, Christ lived here on earth and He made that possible for us by His indwelling. His indwelling is the same power He had as a man like us as the Father was in Him. Christ in you is the Father in you,

Are you saying that If one could not attain to the exact same perfection of Christ that one is lost? That attaining that perfectionis what saves us? I hope you give an unequivocal answer to these questions.

The mistaken notion that somehow the believer could attain to the same perfection as Christ no doubt stems from the erroneous belief that Christ had the SAME body/sinful nature like we have. I held that view briefly back in the mid-1970's. Instead of becoming perfect, all I managed to do was make my family miserable!

[Lysimachus]

Check this amazing statement out folks!

Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away.-- When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907. {3SM 427.1}

It is clear form this statement that before Jesus comes, every sin that exists will have been seen and put away. Every imperfection will have been seen and put away. So there is no such thing as a sin in God's last generation that will not be seen. All unknown sin will eventually be discovered, and when probation closes, we will have already put away every known and unknown sin--because before Christ comes, every unknown sin will be discovered and "put away".

This is very plain!

[Woody]

Check this amazing statement out folks!

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away.-- When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907. {3SM 427.1}

It is clear form this statement that before Jesus comes, every sin that exists will have been seen and put away. Every imperfection will have been seen and put away. So there is no such thing as a sin in God's last generation that will not be seen. All unknown sin will eventually be discovered, and when probation closes, we will have already put away every known and unknown sin--because before Christ comes, every unknown sin will be discovered and "put away".

This is very plain!

Well - I'm just thankful that we aren't in that position at this time. Don't know what will happen during the last generation. But am just thankful we are not there yet. Actually - it's not my responsibility. It's up to God to provide and do what He desires to do with us His people when the time comes. IF he wants to make me perfect whatever that means - then I am all for it.

[joeb]

I don't know how perfectly he obeyed. I'm taking the viewpoint of his still being in need of a Saviour the whole way through his life, which I reckon is safe to say.

BUT- We do know that he will is saved, for:

Quote:

Daniel 12:13- But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Now (let's say) if he went through his whole life needing a Saviour, what made the assurance of his being able to "rest, and stand in thy lot"?

[joeb]

As a general idea it seems that the idea of being able to live without constantly failing and falling into sin is a very scary thought to a lot of people. The very idea of God perfecting us, with our cooperation, seems to be something abhorrent in a lot of people's minds.

I don't understand why. Jesus told us to be perfect. Paul tells us that we are no longer slaves to sin and that it should not have dominion over us. This idea is common in the Bible. It's found in both the OT and NT. The promises of power to live a life in which we keep the law of God are found throughout the Bible. The SOP is full of the same kinds of promises. Yet, the idea of us keeping the law, in reality, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and through His power and ability to change our hearts, brings out great opposition and controversy.

What is so objectionable about loving others, and our Heavenly Father, the way Christ does?

Quote:

Matthew 22: 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. Are we so selfish that we find God's love objectionable and as a consequence something we do not want in our lives? I fear that is exactly the problem. I see no other reason for objecting to perfection of character.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Empty Cross,

You ask me, "So Gibs..... you are saying that one needs to be perfect to make it to heaven"?

We are to live as He, Christ lived here on earth and He made that possible for us by His indwelling. His indwelling is the same power He had as a man like us as the Father was in Him. Christ in you is the Father in you,

Are you saying that If one could not attain to the exact same perfection of Christ that one is lost? That attaining that perfectionis what saves us? I hope you give an unequivocal answer to these questions.

The mistaken notion that somehow the believer could attain to the same perfection as Christ no doubt stems from the erroneous belief that Christ had the SAME body/sinful nature like we have. I held that view briefly back in the mid-1970's. Instead of becoming perfect, all I managed to do was make my family miserable!

Without any doubt The Body prepared for Him was identical to ours and with our same inclinations to commit sin.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

We actually have an advantage over what He did, because now when the evil ones see Him dwelling in you they know of whom defeated them and so now you are dealing with a defeated foe.

There is no reason that I can see that it would bother your family except perhaps you teaching them what possibly they didn't want to take hold of.

My wife was of the extreme liberal but finally now sees it is not the way that is laid by our Saviour for our lives. It is wonderful to be set free from that bondage to commit sin and finally be free men and women within His will.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Hansen]

David, bloody yet perfect.

Scripture says that David’s heart was perfect with the Lord in all things except the matter of Uriah the Hittite:

1 Ki. 15: 3 And he [Abijam] walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

4 Nevertheless for David’s sake did the LORD his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem, to set up his son after him, and to establish Jerusalem:

5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Even though David was described as "perfect," he was not allowed to build the temple. Scripture says this endeavor was forbidden by God because David was a man of war, a bloody man, who had shed much blood; therefore, the temple would be built by his son, Solomon.

1Ki 5:3 Thou knowest how that David my father could not build an house unto the name of the LORD his God for the wars which were about him on every side, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.

1Ch 22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

How could David have been perfect in all matters except Uriah and still been considered too bloody to build the temple? It becomes rather obvious that being perfect in the Biblical sense is not the same as being perfect in the contemporary sense.

[Gerr]

Check this amazing statement out folks!

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away.-- When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907. {3SM 427.1}

It is clear form this statement that before Jesus comes, every sin that exists will have been seen and put away. Every imperfection will have been seen and put away. So there is no such thing as a sin in God's last generation that will not be seen. All unknown sin will eventually be discovered, and when probation closes, we will have already put away every known and unknown sin--because before Christ comes, every unknown sin will be discovered and "put away".

This is very plain!

Even unintentional kind?

[Gerr]

[Gerr]

David, bloody yet perfect.

Scripture says that David’s heart was perfect with the Lord in all things except the matter of Uriah the Hittite:

1 Ki. 15: 3 And he [Abijam] walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

Allow me to add these passages to the above text:

KJV 1900 | ‎1 Ki 8:61 Let your heart [lebab - inner man] therefore be perfect [shalem - wholly true (ESV), wholly devoted (NASB), fully committed (NIV) completely faithful (NLT), loyal (NKJ)] with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

KJV 1900 | ‎Is 38:3 And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

It seems clear to me from these passages and from the lives of the Bible heroes in Heb 11 and other places, that a "perfect heart" has nothing to do we perfect behavior or performance. But it has everything to do with the intent of the inner man. One can make egregious mistakes yet still be fully committed to God. That is the kind of perfection that I believe God requires and is fully within the reach of every believer, without which no one will/can be saved.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

[ClubV12]

Well, this is a delicate subject!

Concerning the quote from 3SM, "Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away..."

This goes well beyond "every known sin" and includes that which is inherent in the human heart: "envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life." Things that are not seen outwardly, but are deep within our mind. Things that come up in less than a heart beat, though we immediately reject, it happened, you "sinned". You DID have that momentary "evil thought", that flash of envy. Perhaps you briefly coveted anothers spiritual experience. The heart is deceitfully wicked.

This quote comes under the section entitled "Final Preparation" and has to do with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Now here's the delicate part, I DON'T want to leave the impression this is an impossible goal, today, right now, we should be striving toward this goal. By increasing our own will and determination in combination with Gods gift to make us over comers. The reality is: It's a goal (perfection here and now) that cannot be achieved in full short of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

So the fundamental question is not "can we achieve perfection", but instead is: What must we do to prepare for that outpouring of the Holy Spirit? What must we do to be worthy of receiving it when that time comes?

I submit this complete change of the HEART will take place when the power of the Holy people is broken (Daniel 12:7) and replaced with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When we see our utter hoplessness of achieving this perfection and accept His righteousness as our only hope. To get to this point, there IS a work we do, a determination to put away all sin exercised in our everyday activities. Our every choice made in life, a constant striving toward becoming like Him.

[Gerr]

Well, this is a delicate subject!

Concerning the quote from 3SM, "Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away..."

This goes well beyond "every known sin" and includes that which is inherent in the human heart: "envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life." Things that are not seen outwardly, but are deep within our mind. Things that come up in less than a heart beat, though we immediately reject, it happened, you "sinned". You DID have that momentary "evil thought", that flash of envy. Perhaps you briefly coveted anothers spiritual experience. The heart is deceitfully wicked.

Until Jesus gives us a glorified body, the present heart will always be indwelt by sin and "deceitfully wicked." The question is - who is allowed to reign.

[12tribes]

There are three stages to being perfect

Perfect in surrender (justification)

Perfect in character (sanctification)

Perfect in nature (glorification)

The thief on the cross was perfect in surrender, perfect in character is the work of a lifetime, perfect in nature (body) we will receive when Jesus comes.

[Gerr]

Can you be perfectly surrendered to your new master while still willfully obeying/serving the old?

[12tribes]

Quote:

Can you be perfectly surrendered to your new master while still willfully obeying/serving the old?

Romans 6:16

(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[Hansen]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect <08535> and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

The word translated "perfect" is used in parallelism with the Hebrew word for "justify" in the following verse:

Job 9:20 If I justify <06663> myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect <08535>, it shall also prove me perverse.

A slightly different word, also translated "perfect," is used here:

Job 22:3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous <06663>? or is it gain to him, that thou makest thy ways perfect <08552>?

Note that in the passages above, being "perfect" is equated with being "justified".

08535, which describes Job, is also used to describe Jacob:

Ge 25:27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain <08535> man, dwelling in tents.

08552 is translated as "upright" in Psalms:

Ps 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright <08552>;

Ps 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright <08552>, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Note that Psalms says that one who is "perfect" is the one who is kept from "presumptuous" sins or men.

Note the different translations of the Psalm:

LXXE Ps 19:13 (18:13) And spare thy servant the attack of strangers: if they do not gain the dominion over me, then shall I be blameless, and I shall be clear from great sin.

YLT Ps 19:13 Also — from presumptuous ones keep back Thy servant, Let them not rule over me, Then am I perfect, And declared innocent of much transgression,

NRSV Ps 19:13 Keep back your servant also from the insolent; do not let them have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression.

[joeb]

@ Gerry Cabalo

Gerry,

I find your statement on how believing in perfection through Christ interesting. Could you please explain how you made your family miserable by wanting to be perfect?

Is it because you focused on do this and that and don't do this other thing, rather than on your relationship with God? Everything I have read on perfection of character tells me it is about becoming Christ-like. About loving others and God the way Jesus did.

Is it possible that it was because of your faulty view of perfection that you made others miserable? I've been there and done that too, and it was because I didn't understand what perfection was all about.

Real love doesn't make others miserable. Other people might make themselves miserable because of it though. But that would be because they hate the principles of God's love as the Jewish leaders of Christ's day did. However, Christ drew people to Him like a magnet draws iron filings because of His love, His perfect character. His character reproduced in us will do the same thing for us.

[M. T. Cross]

@ Gerry Cabalo

Gerry,

I find your statement on how believing in perfection through Christ interesting. Could you please explain how you made your family miserable by wanting to be perfect?

Is it because you focused on do this and that and don't do this other thing, rather than on your relationship with God? Everything I have read on perfection of character tells me it is about becoming Christ-like. About loving others and God the way Jesus did.

Is it possible that it was because of your faulty view of perfection that you made others miserable? I've been there and done that too, and it was because I didn't understand what perfection was all about.

Real love doesn't make others miserable. Other people might make themselves miserable because of it though. But that would be because they hate the principles of God's love as the Jewish leaders of Christ's day did. However, Christ drew people to Him like a magnet draws iron filings because of His love, His perfect character. His character reproduced in us will do the same thing for us.

My dad made our family miserable at times in his pursuit of Christ like perfection. Everything was a sin, he beat himself half to death over what he percieved to be his shortcomings.

[ClubV12]

I can relate to that as well. Being in the serving line at the common meal comes to mind. When some folks start asking whats in this, whats in that, oh I can't eat that. Well don't eat it then! Don't make a big scene out of it, put something on your plate, have a seat and just move it around some, or SOMETHING! Bring your own dish if that what it takes and quietly eat that only. Figure it out, please!

I mentioned some month ago how I rode my dirt bike up to the top of a tall mountain, on SABBATH mind you, you shoulda heard the gasps of anguish. The conversation quickly turned to what was and wasn't appropriate for Sabbath. Visions of "popping wheelies" and "tearing up the trails" danced in peoples heads. Now I hadn't been an Adventist long enough to know this whole concept of "dirt bikes" and Sabbath would be such a big deal, so I was bit shocked and humiliated!

A couple of facts I didn't bother to mention: It was licensed road/dirt bike for one, I was not "tearing up the road", popping wheelies and going all get out. It was a nice, quiet, mellow ride to the mountain meadows! I rode up there because I had been hearing so much about how nature testifies of God. I wanted to see that. The wild flowers were profound. The view magnificant. I was very blessed that Sabbath day and thanked God He had given me the means to reach out and touch Nature in such a remarkable way. If I do that again, I'll keep it to myself.... Or, maybe I'll go on Sunday and hang a few wheelies while I'm at it (but don't tell).

Were all on different rungs of the ladder that reaches heaven, try not to step on the guys fingers below you while you climb over him.

[Gerr]

@ Gerry Cabalo

Gerry,

I find your statement on how believing in perfection through Christ interesting. Could you please explain how you made your family miserable by wanting to be perfect?

My wife told me that it was the most miserable time in our relationship. Our son may have felt the same way, I'm not sure. Unbeknownst to me, apparently I became behavior oriented. My personal observation since then is that people who are of the perfectionist mold tend to be very picky about this and that, and that makes people around them miserable.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: joeb

@ Gerry Cabalo

Gerry,

I find your statement on how believing in perfection through Christ interesting. Could you please explain how you made your family miserable by wanting to be perfect?

My wife told me that it was the most miserable time in our relationship. Our son may have felt the same way, I'm not sure. Unbeknownst to me, apparently I became behavior oriented. My personal observation is that people who are of the perfectionist mold tend to be very picky about this and that, and that makes people around them miserable.