Christian Perfection

[ClubV12]

I am considerably more "bold" about what I have to say about my personal "standards" and lifestyle HERE on this forum, than I am around my friends. I am trying to find the balance, here and around my friends, to know when to give the straight testimony and when to just "let it go". Some folks aren't ready to even hear about the reforms I've personally undertaken in my life. Others, need to hear it, if they ask me, and depending on the circumstances, I'll tell 'em straight.

[Gail]

I am considerably more "bold" about what I have to say about my personal "standards" and lifestyle HERE on this forum, than I am around my friends. I am trying to find the balance, here and around my friends, to know when to give the straight testimony and when to just "let it go". Some folks aren't ready to even hear about the reforms I've personally undertaken in my life. Others, need to hear it, if they ask me, and depending on the circumstances, I'll tell 'em straight.

Just watch for the cracks of opportunity! :)

[Woody]

Quote:

Just watch for the cracks of opportunity!

Yeah. And remember that they are just a baby crack.

[M. T. Cross]

I came to the conclusion years ago that the only real way to achieve the perfection that got hammered into my head in church would be this.

Reach age of consent

Make a huge amount of money really fast

Retire

Sit in an empty room

Wait to die

Cause if you step outside you might see your neighbors car and covet it. You might see an attractive person and have a flash of lust. You might do the wrong thing on the Sabbath. If you talk to someone you might say something untrue and be a liar.

So you see thats where I decided I would risk the pitfalls and just accept that I am totally perfectly imperfect. Because I am human.

Now by the Bible standards God created us as humans. He gave us this flesh. He seemed to think it was a pretty solid place to house a soul. He gave us functioning minds to make choices with. He allowed "sin" to occur. So we go forth and we experience many things. I sometimes wonder why his followers worry so much about all that. In the end, all your so "sins" will give you a greater love of the perfection that is the heaven you seek. As far as the flesh - your holy book calls it the temple of God. Yet I hear Christians talking about it like it is a curse. Like it is the worst thing that could have happened to your soul. Well apparently your God thought it was a pretty good gift. He even designed it so that you could enjoy almost all of its functions.

I say - honour your God my enjoying the great things he gave you and quit worrying so much

[Woody]

ALL YOUR GOOD works are as filthy rags when it comes down to it. We each need His Robe to cover us.

Totally man.

[12tribes]

ALL YOUR GOOD works are as filthy rags when it comes down to it. We each need His Robe to cover us.

Totally man.

That is true, not only are we saved by His death but, we are saved by His life. He lived a perfect life for us.

Romans 5:10

(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[Woody]

Notice - I put YOUR in capital letters.

That means we are saved by the works of Christ.

YOUR works are as filthy rags towards saving you.

If you are going to rely on your works - you will not make it to heaven.

So Yes. I certainly do agree with you 12Tribes

[12tribes]

Notice - I put YOUR in capital letters.

That means we are saved by the works of Christ.

YOUR works are as filthy rags towards saving you.

If you are going to rely on your works - you will not make it to heaven.

So Yes. I certainly do agree with you 12Tribes

The Law demands perfection, we must be perfect to be saved but, we cannot provide it and no amount of commandment keeping will make us perfect because we have all sinned . Christ has provided a perfect life for us which we need to have faith in, His perfect life is transferred to us.

Romans 8:3-4

(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Notice - I put YOUR in capital letters.

That means we are saved by the works of Christ.

YOUR works are as filthy rags towards saving you.

If you are going to rely on your works - you will not make it to heaven.

So Yes. I certainly do agree with you 12Tribes

The Law demands perfection, we must be perfect to be saved but, we cannot provide it and no amount of commandment keeping will make us perfect because we have all sinned . Christ has provided a perfect life for us which we need to have faith in, His perfect life is transferred to us.

Romans 8:3-4

(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yes. Perfection is demanded by the curse of the Law. Once we are wearing His Robe - we are perfect because we are judged by HIS life and not our own.

[ClubV12]

Emptycross says,

"Cause if you step outside you might see your neighbors car and covet it. You might see an attractive person and have a flash of lust. You might do the wrong thing on the Sabbath. If you talk to someone you might say something untrue and be a liar."

You are likely being facetious but actually there is a LOT of truth in that and it's counsel worth consideration.

Consider: John the Baptist. He withdrew from society to a large degree, not totally, to avoid just the kinds of things you mention! He knew and understood the weakness of man, how easily influenced we are by others, by things we see, hear, taste, talk about. John was wise, he knew and understood the human weakness. But he would, on occassion, "come to town" to study civilization, to learn more about how to reach man with his message. Carefully planned trips, with much prayer, always aware of the danger, keeping a certain distance from the influence. Of course this concept is one we can barely grasp, we are so convinced we HAVE to "have a job, raise a family, be a part of society, work hard, go to school, etc. etc." we cannot even fathom a lifestyle such as Johns.

It's not so "far out" as most everyone thinks. Jesus didn't go to school, for instance. You can bet his contact with "town folk" was limited while he was growing up. He found a balance between the extreme of John the Baptist and the typical family life in town. We can too, in fact we are COUNSELED to do exactly that!!!

Get out of the cities, says Ellen White. Why? So you can avoid just exactly what Emptycross is talking about! Coveting the neighbors car, for one. The country is a refuge, YOU need it to grow the best way possible in Christ. A flower will grow in the shade, but it will grow better in the sunshine with some water and fertilizer, in the country if you would.

The country counsel is clear, but it quickly becomes confusing when the discussion ensues, what IS country? How FAR out of the city? Where will I work? You could ask the same questions about Christianity. How close can I come to sin and STILL be saved? Is it OK to do this or that on the Sabbath? As if MAN can answer these questions. You will have to search for the answers yourself, with much prayer and a serious determination to find the truth.

[joeb]

I thought I'd post the following quote as a general post. Read it carefully as it is a very revealing quote. It says much more than a surface reading might reveal.

Quote:

God was to be manifest in Christ, "reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. Man had become so degraded by sin that it was impossible for him, in himself, to come into harmony with Him whose nature is purity and goodness. But Christ, after having redeemed man from the condemnation of the law, could impart divine power to unite with human effort. Thus by repentance toward God and faith in Christ the fallen children of Adam might once more become "sons of God." 1 John 3:2. Patriarchs and Prophets p. 64

I started re-reading PP for about the 10th time this week and this quote just jumped out at me. This is a wonderful promise of power for change and redemption from sin.

[olger]

Amen. Surprising how few believe that anymore.. There is an individual that I know who boasts about his sinning - you might know him too.

Here is some of his handiwork: “I sin willfully all the time. I will sin until the day I die. Praise God ... He has made provisions for those sins. We live in a sinful world. Praise God .... He loves me anyways”

“I will continue to practice sin. But I will also continue to seek forgiveness. Therefore my sin is gone and I am perfect in the sight of God. What I practice ... HE forgives. That is just the nature of God. He is loving and there is no sin of which He will not forgive.” 7-5-07

[Woody]

Quote:

“I sin willfully all the time. I will sin until the day I die. Praise God ... He has made provisions for those sins. We live in a sinful world. Praise God .... He loves me anyways”

“I will continue to practice sin. But I will also continue to seek forgiveness. Therefore my sin is gone and I am perfect in the sight of God. What I practice ... HE forgives. That is just the nature of God. He is loving and there is no sin of which He will not forgive.”

[Twilight II]

Amen. Surprising how few believe that anymore.. There is an individual that I know who boasts about his sinning - you might know him too.

Here is some of his handiwork: “I sin willfully all the time. I will sin until the day I die. Praise God ... He has made provisions for those sins. We live in a sinful world. Praise God .... He loves me anyways”

“I will continue to practice sin. But I will also continue to seek forgiveness. Therefore my sin is gone and I am perfect in the sight of God. What I practice ... HE forgives. That is just the nature of God. He is loving and there is no sin of which He will not forgive.” 7-5-07

Indeed.

[M. T. Cross]

Emptycross says,

"Cause if you step outside you might see your neighbors car and covet it. You might see an attractive person and have a flash of lust. You might do the wrong thing on the Sabbath. If you talk to someone you might say something untrue and be a liar."

You are likely being facetious but actually there is a LOT of truth in that and it's counsel worth consideration.

Consider: John the Baptist. He withdrew from society to a large degree, not totally, to avoid just the kinds of things you mention! He knew and understood the weakness of man, how easily influenced we are by others, by things we see, hear, taste, talk about. John was wise, he knew and understood the human weakness. But he would, on occassion, "come to town" to study civilization, to learn more about how to reach man with his message. Carefully planned trips, with much prayer, always aware of the danger, keeping a certain distance from the influence. Of course this concept is one we can barely grasp, we are so convinced we HAVE to "have a job, raise a family, be a part of society, work hard, go to school, etc. etc." we cannot even fathom a lifestyle such as Johns.

It's not so "far out" as most everyone thinks. Jesus didn't go to school, for instance. You can bet his contact with "town folk" was limited while he was growing up. He found a balance between the extreme of John the Baptist and the typical family life in town. We can too, in fact we are COUNSELED to do exactly that!!!

Get out of the cities, says Ellen White. Why? So you can avoid just exactly what Emptycross is talking about! Coveting the neighbors car, for one. The country is a refuge, YOU need it to grow the best way possible in Christ. A flower will grow in the shade, but it will grow better in the sunshine with some water and fertilizer, in the country if you would.

The country counsel is clear, but it quickly becomes confusing when the discussion ensues, what IS country? How FAR out of the city? Where will I work? You could ask the same questions about Christianity. How close can I come to sin and STILL be saved? Is it OK to do this or that on the Sabbath? As if MAN can answer these questions. You will have to search for the answers yourself, with much prayer and a serious determination to find the truth.

I was being serious in a way. To achieve the kind of perfection I was taught one needs to achieve that is the only way you could do it.

Nothing in the country is any better than the cities Club. You have a romantic view of it. I live in a tiny town - under 2000 people including surrounding area. We have one of the largest drug problems in all of BC per capita. If its not nailed down some meth head will steal it, whether you live right in town or 10 miles out. You need not be seeking "salvation" or "perfection" to see that many things people are doing are wrong. Each person needs to be accountable NOW - in THIS lifetime for their actions and do the things they know are right. No matter where they live.

[Gerr]

Quote:

“I sin willfully all the time. I will sin until the day I die. Praise God ... He has made provisions for those sins. We live in a sinful world. Praise God .... He loves me anyways”

“I will continue to practice sin. But I will also continue to seek forgiveness. Therefore my sin is gone and I am perfect in the sight of God. What I practice ... HE forgives. That is just the nature of God. He is loving and there is no sin of which He will not forgive.”

KJV 1900 | Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

[Woody]

Gerry. I have no issue with you being perfect. But as for me and mine - we sin.

[Dr. Rich]

Notice - I put YOUR in capital letters.

That means we are saved by the works of Christ.

YOUR works are as filthy rags towards saving you.

If you are going to rely on your works - you will not make it to heaven.

So Yes. I certainly do agree with you 12Tribes

s

"Sanctify them (the disciples) in the TRUTH, thy word is truth...And for their (disciples) sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also MAY become sanctified in TRUTH...I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those who believe in Me (His words) through their words that they may all be one..." (John 17-17-21 in parts)

"The words which Thou gavest Me I have given to them..." (John 17:8)

"For this [reason] I have been born, and for this, I have come into this world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears (understands) by voice." (John 18:37)

"Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" (Isn't this what we all want to know?) And Jesus said unto him..."if you wish to enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS...."If you wish to be complete (perfect)...come and follow Me." (See Matt. 19) What? No grace or righteousness by faith? Hmmm?

"And the dragon (Satan) was enraaged with the Woman (Holy Spirit), and went off to make war with the rest of Her offspring, who KEEP [all] THE COMMANDMENTS of God and hold to the testimony (words) of Jesus." (Rev. 12:17) Hmmm? Where is the grace and righteousness by faith in this?

Matthew 25:1-13--read it. What? No grace or righteousness by faith?

Jesus had ample opportunity to teach the real truth and did, before His death and afterward too. He never needed anyone to teach anything else, especially from someone who never knew Him or ever met Him. The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven is what Jesus said and taught.