Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[rodgertutt]

THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING

“ ‘And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.” 1John 4:14.

‘Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth’ 1Tim. 2:4.

This is not a pitting of man’s will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man’s will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool. NAY – for we read that ‘He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,’ and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God’s will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?”

[rodgertutt]

THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING

“God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.

Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God’s will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all.”

[dialoguewithus]

Perhaps the strongest evidence that "eonian" does not mean "eternal" is this: We, as believers in Christ Jesus, presently enjoy and possess eonian life. Nevertheless, generation after generation of believers have died and remain dead. Their "everlasting" life isn't everlasting after all. Immortality will be everlasting, and that God possesses, as does Christ. And so will mankind. Ro. 5:19; 1 Cor. 15:22.

[Samie]

Perhaps the strongest evidence that "eonian" does not mean "eternal" is this: We, as believers in Christ Jesus, presently enjoy and possess eonian life. Nevertheless, generation after generation of believers have died and remain dead. Their "everlasting" life isn't everlasting after all. Immortality will be everlasting, and that God possesses, as does Christ. And so will mankind. Ro. 5:19; 1 Cor. 15:22.

[rodgertutt]

THE TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY

“Today every warden in the U.S. endorses the ideal of rehabilitation. Shall we say then that God is less reasonable than His creatures? No! God’s punishments exist not for vindictive suffering, but rather for remedy! Praise His Holy Name!

God works with a glorious end in view. We have viewed the judgments of God against sin and unrighteousness as the end, when in reality they are only a means to an end. The revelation of scriptural truth does not view God’s judgments in the ages to come as vindictive, as if to say that God is vengeful, implacable, and hateful against men (as all too often those who profess His Name appear to be!), This insight into God’s purposes in judgment rather declares that these judgments are remedial, that they exist to effect a positive divine end for everyone.

Christ died “to reconcile all unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross” Colossians 1:20. The all saving Cross of Christ will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinner have no more a name among the creatures of God.”

[dialoguewithus]

Christ will enlighten and draw to Himself ALL. I have yet to receive an answer to this question from our noble opponents: When will this occur for the thousands of millions who perish without having heard of the one true God, including hundreds of millions of small children? Will any admit the obvious, that this MUST occur after their death? John 1:9; 12:32.

[dialoguewithus]

FLAWED LOGIC

If the fact that our God is the eonian God must mean that He is the eternal God, then the fact that He is the God of all the earth must mean that “the earth” is all there is; the earth is synonymous with the universe. It simply doesn’t follow.

[dialoguewithus]

God is the God of Israel. God is the God of the universe.

God is eonian. God is eternal.

Israel is not the same as the universe.

Eonian is not the same as eternal. Sodom and Gomorrah experienced the justice of eonian fire. Jd. 7. God made the eons. Heb. 1:2. Eons end. Eph. 1:21.

[Samie]

THE TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY

...

Christ died “to reconcile all unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross” Colossians 1:20. The all saving Cross of Christ will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinner have no more a name among the creatures of God.”

[Samie]

Christ will enlighten and draw to Himself ALL. I have yet to receive an answer to this question from our noble opponents: When will this occur for the thousands of millions who perish without having heard of the one true God, including hundreds of millions of small children? Will any admit the obvious, that this MUST occur after their death? John 1:9; 12:32.

[dialoguewithus]

Samie, your answer doesn't surprise me, nor does it convince me. I suppose you also think Christ annihilated the wicked on the cross, at the same time as He was reconciling them. If you will read how the word for "draw" is used in the Bible, you will find it to be an action word, where a person or thing is moved from one place or state to another. While you can claim that all were drawn to Christ when He was on the cross, the fact that God commands, "Be conciliated to God" (2 Cor. 5:20), shows that salvation is an individual matter, and no, small children who die were not "shown ALL they need to know about Him". The verse you quoted refers to "the irreverence and injustice of men, who are retaining the truth in injustice". Little kids can't do that, Samie.

What did Christ mean when He said, “And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.”? http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a

[rodgertutt]

THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS

“God says He will reconcile all; the whole creation shall ultimately be delivered, and every created thing shall finally praise God (Revelation 5:13).

The point that I wish the reader especially to note is that the final accomplishment of this purpose of God depends on Himself, and not on man. The creature may fail, the Creator never fails; and no amount of blunders, mistakes, failures or perversions of the creature shall disarrange or thwart the plans of the Creator. This is the true basis of redemption.”

[ClubV12]

Samie says,

"Or, is there anything more you want clarified? Please, don't hesitate to ask. The Bible has all the answers."

The bible has all the answers, not everyone who claims they understand it does. Be careful who you counsel with.

[rodgertutt]

Samie, your answer doesn't surprise me, nor does it convince me. I suppose you also think Christ annihilated the wicked on the cross, at the same time as He was reconciling them. If you will read how the word for "draw" is used in the Bible, you will find it to be an action word, where a person or thing is moved from one place or state to another. While you can claim that all were drawn to Christ when He was on the cross, the fact that God commands, "Be conciliated to God" (2 Cor. 5:20), shows that salvation is an individual matter, and no, small children who die were not "shown ALL they need to know about Him". The verse you quoted refers to "the irreverence and injustice of men, who are retaining the truth in injustice". Little kids can't do that, Samie.

What did Christ mean when He said, “And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.”?

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a

I recommend the above link, especially #115.

You will need to scroll up to the beginning of #115.

Why not check it out?

[Samie]

Samie, your answer doesn't surprise me, nor does it convince me.

[Stan]

Originally Posted By: Stan

Please cease to copy and paste. That is not a conversation.

This is request number 2

Stan, others can say what I want to say far better than I can say it myself. Thus the copy and paste.

These are all from my snippets, and that is what this my thread is called.

"Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of Rodger Tutt." I am now applying them to specific challenges.

Does that not make a difference to you?

Continue to cut and paste and this will be locked.

What benefit is it to this forum to have this on?

[Lysimachus]

[Continue to cut and paste and this will be locked.

What benefit is it to this forum to have this on?

Precisely. We can always just go to their website and read if we're interested.

[rodgertutt]

Quote:

Stan, others can say what I want to say far better than I can say it myself. Thus the copy and paste.

These are all from my snippets, and that is what this my thread is called.

"Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of Rodger Tutt." I am now applying them to specific challenges.

Does that not make a difference to you?

Continue to cut and paste and this will be locked.

What benefit is it to this forum to have this on?

Quote:

Stan, I would say that the benefit was that both ANers and URs were given an opportunity to read explanations of why the other believes differently.

But I realize that nearly every Christian will embrace and defend the opinions of the denomination in which they became a Christian, and they will live out thir lives and die believing as they do now.

I believe like my earthly hero and mentor Ray Prinzing believed, that it is God Who decides what belief system each person becomes involved in, and it is also God Who decides how long each person will remain in that belief system.

In both cases (AN and UR), our will is only "free" to believe what we honestly perceive to be the truth.

Thank you for letting dialoguewithus and I post as much as we did.

God bless you and God bless your forum and all its participants.

POST SCRIPT:

If you ever become curious why anyone would switch from AN to UR, I can't think of a better thorough explanation than the one written by Gary Amirault in his testimony/exposition called

ANNIHILATION, ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

Gary responds in detail to many of the arguments that were presented on this thread in support of annihilation.

[Stan]

Many forums, have trouble the concept of people posting something basically saying "He will tell you what I believe" much of this is opposite to what most belief here are fundamental teachings of the Bible..

I have no problem with YOU discussing that, but please CEASE the cutting and pasting.

[John317]

Sodom and Gomorrah experienced the justice of eonian fire. Jd. 7.

Your statement about the "eonian fire" of Sodom is absolutely correct, and that is because the people of Sodom were mortal. In the case of mortals, then, "eonian" means either for as long as they live, or it can simply mean a length of time. The "eonian fire" of Jude 7, burned until it destroyed everything that it was intended to destroy. The Bible says it is an example of the fire that will destroy the wicked at the end of the thousand years.

However, when "eonian" is used with reference to God or to immortal beings, such as the saved will be after God gives them the gift of immortality (1 Cor. 15: 53, 54), then "eonian" refers to eternal, or never-ending. God is eternal and never-ending, as are those whom God gives the gift of immortality.

By the way, notice that 1 Thess. 4: 17 says that after the second coming of Christ, "we shall ALWAYS [Gk pantote] be with the Lord." In other words, we will be with the Lord throughout eternity. We will NEVER be separated from Jesus again-- ever. That's never-ending. Therefore the NIV and NRSV translate it correctly, "we shall be with the Lord forever."

Do you believe that we shall not ALWAYS be with the Lord-- that there will come a point when the saved will be separated from the Lord?

Notice that there's no place where the Bible says the same thing about those who are not ready to go with Jesus at His second coming. On the contrary, the Bible teaches clearly that the lost will "consume away as smoke," never to exist again; they come to "an end."

You need to start discussing the Bible's testimony instead of quoting page after page of false teachings written by human beings who contradict the plain Word of God.

Let's talk.

[ClubV12]

Quote,

"Samie, your answer doesn't surprise me, nor does it convince me."

Samie says,

"Of course. If the Bible can't convince you what will?"

What that really says, "Of course. If MY private interpretation of the bible can't convince you, what will?"

Perhaps somebody else' interpretation of the bible! Why should I, or anybody, consider YOUR interpretation as the one and only way to truth? In fact, for the most part, I have found I DON'T agree with your interpretations of the bible in general.

There are some verses, many in fact, where I am 100% sure of MY interpretation because it is not a "private", sole source, me and me alone interpretation. It is a considered opinion in harmony with many biblical scholars I consider worthy counselors. The fourth commandment is the Sabbath, done, I'm 100% sure. On many other issues I would have to agree with the New Testament conclusion on interpretation, "Let every man be convinced in his own heart."

Is the Sabbath binding on every man, right now and if he doesn't keep it he is lost? NO! FIRST that man must be convicted by the Holy Spirit this is something he needs to do. At THAT point, yes, it is in fact binding, to ignore it is sin, but not a moment before that conviction comes.

[Samie]

Quote,

"Samie, your answer doesn't surprise me, nor does it convince me."

Samie says,

"Of course. If the Bible can't convince you what will?"

What that really says, "Of course. If MY private interpretation of the bible can't convince you, what will?"

...

What private interpretation did I attach to the verses I gave to the Universalists, ClubV12? You haven't even raised any single, solid, bible-based argument against their position.

Is this your way of making up for your utter inability to defend your position in the other thread re: Dan 11?

[Stan]

Roger...

I would be more than willing to at my own expense, start up a forum for you using the software I have on www.theologyreview.com www.foroadventista.com etc etc

The google ads should cover my expenses like hosting, domain name etc etc.

You would have to populate the content and get the members.

Thoughts?

[ClubV12]

Samie, the verse in question on this thread, or the Daniel 11 thread is not the issue. It is your attitude toward bible interpretation that is the problem. What you are telling Roger, myself, anyone that asks is your interpretation of a bible verse is THEE way, or the highway.

"Or, is there anything more you want clarified? Please, don't hesitate to ask. The Bible has all the answers."

The BIBLE Samie, not necessarily YOU.

I would simply ask this:

What credentials do you bring to the table so I can gauge your interpretations as being accurate in the first place?

Lots of people on this forum make the claim they, and they alone, can correctly interpret scripture. Some do so by claiming they have had visions! Others claim God spoke to them! Still others say the Holy Spirit revealed it to them! What credentials do you offer Samie? How are those credentials any different than the next guy who makes the same claim? WHY should Roger accept your interpretation?

Here are my credentials:

I am a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and I support that Church in every way. Physically, spiritually, personally involved manual labor and with my pocket book. I am in perfect harmony with that Church, it's leadership and the brethren on all the official points of doctrine and the 28 fundamental beliefs. I believe Ellen White was an inspired messenger of the Lord, a prophet, and as such offers inspired commentary on the interpretation of scripture. A source of information I can place 100% confidence in. I have studied these issues for myself and came to the same conclusions as the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The foundation is solid, the pillars of faith stand, the foundation cannot be moved. My interpretations are in no way "private" they are in agreement with biblical scholars from the Adventist Church going back over a 100 years. I understand the concept that there will be new light, I will willingly look at it, compare it with what the brethren think about and make an intelligent decision whether to "hold it fast" or reject it at the present time. Perhaps in a future time, we will have more light on it if it cannot be immediately accepted as truth.

[dialoguewithus]

ClubV12, I really appreciate your input and find light in what you're saying to Samie, although, Samie, I was somewhat rude to you, and I regret that.