Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[Dr. Rich]

Perhaps more research on your part should be done. Show me ONE place where God ever did something to cause an evil person to become converted other than with Saul?

If you don't understand what Peter told Paul as found in the 19th Psydo Climitine Homly, then look that up too. At one time this was part of the bible, but was forced to be left out because Paul's words would have been made useless.

[rodgertutt]

Perhaps more research on your part should be done. Show me ONE place where God ever did something to cause an evil person to become converted other than with Saul?

If you don't understand what Peter told Paul as found in the 19th Psydo Climitine Homly, then look that up too. At one time this was part of the bible, but was forced to be left out because Paul's words would have been made useless.

Dr. Rich, at some time in the future everyone is going to learn that they started trusting in Jesus as their Saviour ONLY because God laid hold on them by His sovereign grace and caused Jesus to be "choice" in their heart. Any cooperation on our part is the result, not the cause of our salvation.

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% “provided” by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ANers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened," our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram

CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html

"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.

And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.

When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.

This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Stan

Please cease to copy and paste. That is not a conversation.

This is request number 2

Stan, others can say what I want to say far better than I can say it myself. Thus the copy and paste.

OK you can make your quotes, but also try to answer directly and in your own words the questions people ask you.

[dialoguewithus]

Not to confuse your faith with Islam, but just a point I've noticed from some Muslims: the writings of Paul are those of the Bible they least trust. (They say that Christ wasn't really crucified, and that the Bible was severely corrupted.)

[dialoguewithus]

To begin, there is one premise that I offer. It is a personal premise of mine, and it happens to be biblical. If any of us believe the biblical revelation then we will not have any difficulty with this principal. It must be accepted before we ever begin a discussion of the nature of God. The principle is that God is sovereign over all creation. That means He controls and rules everything, that all energy, all power, is invested in Him, that nothing in the universe occurs without His express permission. I say that this is the premise we must start from. It is something that I believe personally, but whether I believe it personally or not makes no difference. It is His biblical revelation. God almighty is exactly that — He is almighty. Once we realize this principle, we will not get into any trouble when it comes to understanding God’s nature.

On the other hand, if we think that He is slightly inferior in any way, relative to any subject, then by definition He cannot be God. That is a fact. God is God because He is sovereign. If He has any limitations whatsoever, anything that shows God to be inferior to Him being almighty, it shows He is not God. The Bible makes it quite clear that God certainly is infinite in knowledge and wisdom and in power.

“YHWH kills, and makes alive: he brings down to the grave, and brings up. YHWH makes poor, and makes rich: he brings low, and lifts up. He raises up the poor out of the dust, and lifts up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are YHWH’s, and he has set the world upon them.”

• 1 Samuel 2:6–8

That verse shows the almighty power of God. There are other verses that go even farther:

“Both riches and honor come of you, and you reign over all; and in your hand is power and might; and in your hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.”

• 1 Chronicles 29:12

“And said, O YHWH God of our fathers, are not you God in heaven? and rule not you over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in your hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand you?”

• 2 Chronicles 20:6

“And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he does according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What are you doing?”

• Daniel 4:35

I could go on listing such verses, and give New Testament verses to show that God is almighty. Satan is a power, a personality according to the Bible. He has a good deal of power and usually exercises it in the sense of evil, as we are told in Scripture. But Satan compared to God is nothing. There is no comparison whatsoever. God Himself is in control of the entire universe, and whether it be Satan or his angels or all men, women, children, all the kingdoms on earth or in the universe; none can stay the hand of almighty God. He is in charge completely. That is the premise that we must start from. It is a proper one.

An extract from God: Contradictions and Harmony, by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1980

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d080901.htm

[John317]

If you don't understand what Peter told Paul as found in the 19th Psydo Climitine Homly, then look that up too. At one time this was part of the bible, but was forced to be left out because Paul's words would have been made useless.

No, Dr. Rich, it was never a part of the Bible.

Why do you accept the 19th Psydo Climitine Homly (i.e.,Pseudo-Clementine Writings) as authoritative but reject over half of the New Testament?

Pseudo=false. It's a "romance," not a true story.

[Guest]

No, Dr. Rich, it was never a part of the Bible.

Why do you accept the 19th Psydo Climitine Homly as authoritative but reject over half of the New Testament?

He doesn't have much rhyme to his reason, does he?

[rodgertutt]

Quote:

Stan, others can say what I want to say far better than I can say it myself. Thus the copy and paste.

Quote:

OK you can make your quotes, but also try to answer directly and in your own words the questions people ask you.

Nearly everyone I quoted also quoted the scriptures in connection with what they were saying.

SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO

“As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God ‘Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)." EDITOR'S ADDITION:

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, ‘yet each in his own class’ (1Cor. 15:23)." EDITOR'S ADDITION:

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE

http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

"Annihilation is only one step from its false associate ‘eternal torment.’ When clouds of confusion gather regarding God’s plan for mankind, and despair comes showering down upon our studies, turn to God’s word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be ‘ALL in all,’ to all, ‘later.’” EDITOR'S ADDITION:

WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED? - chapters three and four

(If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

[dialoguewithus]

I suppose it depends on one's definition of "force". If God "forced" Paul to accept Christ, then yes, I believe He uses force, but that's not how I would term it. His grace overwhelms any resistance, human or otherwise, at the moment when He decides to overwhelm it; then there is acquiescence.

[John317]

.... If God "forced" Paul to accept Christ, then yes, I believe He uses force,...

The Bible doesn't teach that God "forced" Paul to accept Christ.

God knew Paul's heart and therefore He knew that Paul was sincere and wanted to know the truth and would accept Christ if he was given the opportunity. God chose Paul to be His ambassador to the Gentiles because God knew Paul would be a great witness for Him and help spread the gospel throughout the world.

God never forced Paul to do anything against his will.

Ephes. 3:1-13

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, [2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [7] Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. [8] Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: [10] To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, [11] According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: [12] In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. [13] Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

[dialoguewithus]

"God never forced Paul to do anything against his will."

No, of course not. The question, as regards the fate of the lost, is, "Can God ultimately direct the will of all men to submit themselves to Him in reverence and love?"

I believe the answer is "Yes!"

Matt. 18:25, 26; Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

[John317]

The point is, that Paul wanted to do God's will, whereas many people do not want to do His will, and God doesn't force people to change their minds against their will. If God was ever going to do that, He could have saved the universe a lot of pain and suffering by forcing Lucifer, and Adam, to change their minds at the very beginning of things.

[rodgertutt]

The point is, that Paul wanted to do God's will, whereas many people do not want to do His will, and God doesn't force people to change their minds against their will. If God was ever going to do that, He could have saved the universe a lot of pain and suffering by forcing Lucifer, and Adam, to change their minds at the very beginning of things.

My understanding of the important point is that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will, and He will not fail to do so.

[dialoguewithus]

The bottom line is, when you realize that some will be saved now and the rest will be saved later, it is easy to see why Jesus and Paul seamlessly switch between talking about “all being saved” and “those who have faith now being saved”…because both concepts are equally true on their own. These two concepts do not negate or contradict each other. All human beings will eventually have faith in Christ, confess Him as Lord, and bow the knee in worship to Him. The Bible plainly states this. We can also see that the Bible often speaks to those who are to be saved earlier than the rest of mankind, exhorting us to have faith now, serve God now, try to accumulate reward which we will receive “in the kingdom of God” (the next two ages of life on earth), prepare for our leadership role in the next age (the millennium), look forward to our party in the age after that (the New Jerusalem age), etc.

Both truths – “early salvation from death and a portion in the kingdom of God for some who have faith now” and “the eventual salvation of all mankind” need to be taught. The Bible teaches both truths thoroughly and completely. Jesus focused mostly on the former truth (that was His assignment from God in His preaching to Israel – to give them a chance to see the kingdom come within that generation if they behaved well enough and accepted Him as Messiah, which they obviously failed to do). But Jesus did mention God’s plan to save all mankind a few times recorded in Scripture. The apostle Paul later was God’s chosen vessel to be the primary teacher of the full significance of Christ’s death on the cross, which Jesus never fully explained to anyone, even His own disciples, while He was on earth – John 3:16-17 was as close as He got to a real explanation of His full purpose for coming to earth. Jesus was saving that info for Paul to release later. See Romans 11:12 and my article on “The Kingdom Time-Gap” or “Paul’s Pause”.

I hope you now understand that Biblical statements about some people being saved from death early so as to take part in “the kingdom of God” (the next two ages of life on earth) and Biblical statements about all people being saved from death eventually through the education of the white throne judgment and the third vivification at the consummation of God’s plan (Rev. 20:11-15 + 1 Cor. 15:22-28) do not contradict, negate, or qualify each other at all. Both types of statements are 100% true, stand complete on their own, and exist side-by-side in Scripture in perfect harmony.

Therefore any argument that tries to use the former type of statement in Scripture (about some being saved from death early) to negate or qualify the latter type of statement in Scripture (about the eventual salvation of all mankind) is an invalid argument.

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

[rodgertutt]

The bottom line is, when you realize that some will be saved now and the rest will be saved later, it is easy to see why Jesus and Paul seamlessly switch between talking about “all being saved” and “those who have faith now being saved”…because both concepts are equally true on their own. These two concepts do not negate or contradict each other. All human beings will eventually have faith in Christ, confess Him as Lord, and bow the knee in worship to Him. The Bible plainly states this. We can also see that the Bible often speaks to those who are to be saved earlier than the rest of mankind, exhorting us to have faith now, serve God now, try to accumulate reward which we will receive “in the kingdom of God” (the next two ages of life on earth), prepare for our leadership role in the next age (the millennium), look forward to our party in the age after that (the New Jerusalem age), etc.

Both truths – “early salvation from death and a portion in the kingdom of God for some who have faith now” and “the eventual salvation of all mankind” need to be taught. The Bible teaches both truths thoroughly and completely. Jesus focused mostly on the former truth (that was His assignment from God in His preaching to Israel – to give them a chance to see the kingdom come within that generation if they behaved well enough and accepted Him as Messiah, which they obviously failed to do). But Jesus did mention God’s plan to save all mankind a few times recorded in Scripture. The apostle Paul later was God’s chosen vessel to be the primary teacher of the full significance of Christ’s death on the cross, which Jesus never fully explained to anyone, even His own disciples, while He was on earth – John 3:16-17 was as close as He got to a real explanation of His full purpose for coming to earth. Jesus was saving that info for Paul to release later. See Romans 11:12 and my article on “The Kingdom Time-Gap” or “Paul’s Pause”.

I hope you now understand that Biblical statements about some people being saved from death early so as to take part in “the kingdom of God” (the next two ages of life on earth) and Biblical statements about all people being saved from death eventually through the education of the white throne judgment and the third vivification at the consummation of God’s plan (Rev. 20:11-15 + 1 Cor. 15:22-28) do not contradict, negate, or qualify each other at all. Both types of statements are 100% true, stand complete on their own, and exist side-by-side in Scripture in perfect harmony.

Therefore any argument that tries to use the former type of statement in Scripture (about some being saved from death early) to negate or qualify the latter type of statement in Scripture (about the eventual salvation of all mankind) is an invalid argument.

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS - J. Preston Eby

IS, IMO, VERY SCRIPTURALLY ENLIGHTENING ON THIS SUBJECT.

http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This thread is an absolutely **choice** example of why I am not a Christian anymore. :/

Carping and harping....using extrabiblical sources to prove your THEORY. Sick of it.

Satan is not interested in being in heaven with Jesus, unless he is on a par level with Jesus. He isn't now, never was, and never will be. He knows that. And he's laughing at those who think he will be "saved." What a farce.

[dialoguewithus]

Hi, Pam

Maybe Satan was laughing about his "victory" over Christ at the cross...

[dialoguewithus]

The Holy Places and the Eons

-Adapted from All in all, by A. E. Knoch

Before the Eons

First Eon- Outside the Camp

Disruption- Gen. 1:2, CLV: “Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant…”

Second Eon- The Camp

The Deluge

Third (and present) Eon- The Court, with the Altar of Sacrifice

Day of Indignation

Fourth Eon (lasting a little over 1,000 years)- The Holy

The Judgment (4th and 5th eons- Eons of the Eons- Holies of the Holies)

Fifth Eon (The eon of the eons/ The eon of the eon/ New Jerusalem eon)- The Holy of Holies

The Consummation

After the Eons

[Stan]

dialoguewithus, you should site down sometime and read the book. AND BTW Pam is right about Satan.

All this pain and suffering has not existed for pleasure.

[Stan]

The Holy Places and the Eons

-Adapted from All in all, by A. E. Knoch

Before the Eons

First Eon- Outside the Camp

Disruption- Gen. 1:2, CLV: “Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant…”

Second Eon- The Camp

The Deluge

Third (and present) Eon- The Court, with the Altar of Sacrifice

Day of Indignation

Fourth Eon (lasting a little over 1,000 years)- The Holy

The Judgment (4th and 5th eons- Eons of the Eons- Holies of the Holies)

Fifth Eon (The eon of the eons/ The eon of the eon/ New Jerusalem eon)- The Holy of Holies

The Consummation

After the Eons

Where did he make up this stuff from?

Let reason prevail.

[dialoguewithus]

You see, the Greek word translated “made alive” in this verse is “vivified”, which does not just refer to being resurrected, but to getting an immortal body. The rest of the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 makes this extremely clear, listing three instances when these “vivifications” will occur – all three instances are clearly resurrections into immortal/incorruptible bodies. The three “vivifications” listed by the apostle Paul in this passage do not include the temporary resurrection of most of mankind into mortal bodies for the white throne judgment – that resurrection is referred to in Revelation 20:5 and 13 with terms other than “vivification”.

Chan doesn’t even attempt to argue about the term “vivified”; he can’t argue about it because the rest of the passage and the use of the word “vivified” in Scripture make it very clear that it refers only to permanent resurrection into immortal/incorruptible bodies. So Chan must find another way to get out of the “universal reconciliation” corner he’s been trapped into by the exceedingly clear, plain statement the apostle Paul made in 1 Corinthians 15:22.

The only way Chan can get out of this corner is to butcher the simple rules of language by claiming that the word “all” means “all” in the first part of the sentence but then changes its meaning in the second part of the sentence to “all except for most”. This is obviously a ridiculous line of reasoning. If we must resort to this type of butchering of the simple rules of language in order to make the Bible cohesive, we might as well throw the whole Bible in the trash can. If this type of disregard for the simple rules of communication is allowed, then any statement in the Bible can be changed at our whim to mean anything we want.

But for the sake of argument let’s look more closely at what Chan says about this verse. Chan claims that the context somehow indicates that the apostle Paul meant “all” to have a different definition in the second part of the sentence (“all Christians” – a tiny minority of those who have lived on earth) than in the first part of the sentence (“all humans who have ever lived”). The problem is, Paul does not give us any indication whatsoever either in the sentence itself or in the context that he means “all” to have a completely different definition in the second part of the sentence than in the first part. Nowhere in the passage is there any indication that the word “all” somehow should suddenly change its meaning from “all” to “all except for most” (which is actually “not all” or “some” or “the opposite of all”).

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

[dialoguewithus]

Dr. Rich (and Stan?): I found this, but Paul isn't mentioned in it, so I don't know what you're referring to.

http://www.compassionatespirit.com/Homilies/Book-19.htm

[dialoguewithus]

ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION

"Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have PUT DOWN all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has PUT all enemies UNDER HIS FEET. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says all things are PUT UNDER Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did PUT all things UNDER HIM. And when ALL THINGS shall be SUBDUED UNTO Him, then shall the Son also Himself BE SUBJECT unto Him that PUT ALL THINGS under Him, that God may be all in all" (I Cor. 15:24-28).

In the 27th and 28th verses one single verb meaning "put in subjection" is used six times. It is variously translated as "put under," "subdues," and "be subject." Paul chooses this word to make clear his meaning that ALL THINGS IN THE UNIVERSE are to be brought INTO SUBJECTION to God. To bring into subjection is to bring into obedience. There can be no reconciliation, no harmony, no orderly Kingdom, no "God all in all" without a subjugation; and as God accepts nothing but a willing obedience, He plans to bring ALL to a willing obedience to His will. God does not make anyone do anything. But He certainly knows how to "make" us WILLING! God didn't "make" Jonah go to Nineveh, but He DID MAKE HIM WILLING to go!

"Who will transform the body of our humiliation into a conformity with His glorious body, according to the energy by which He is able to SUBJECT ALL THINGS to Himself" (Phil. 3:21). The power that transforms our bodies into the likeness of His glorious body, is the same power that will subdue ALL THINGS unto Him. They will become His subjects, and own Him as their King. Some erroneously teach that THINGS does not mean people, that it only means nature, thrones, governmental positions, etc. If so, God loves the created inanimate THINGS more than man who was made in His image! That is but another of Babylon's infamous lies, a deceitful smokescreen to keep the Lord's precious people from the truth. The Scriptures plainly repudiate such an untenable position. Of course ALL THINGS includes ALL PEOPLE! Numerous passages could be cited, but I share only two briefly, to establish the point. "Therefore let no man glory in men. For ALL THINGS are yours; whether PAUL, or APOLLOS, or CEPHAS, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; ALL are yours" (I Cor. 3:21-22). It should be plain to anyone that people Paul, Apollos, and Cephas - are among the ALL THINGS that Paul enumerates as belonging to the saints. Such other items as "the world" and "life" are included with them as "things." No less illustrious a personage than our blessed Lord Jesus Christ is called in Scripture a "thing." "The angel answered and said unto her ... that HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Lk. 1:35).

The real proof, however, lies right within the passage under consideration. "For HE hath put ALL THINGS under His feet. But when He says ALL THINGS are put under Him, it is manifest that HE is excepted, which did put ALL THINGS under Him" (I Cor. 15:27). Now, I am sure that all will admit that GOD is a person. God is not an inanimate object or an abstract governmental position. He is a living being! And He is the only thing, according to Paul, that is NOT SUBDUED UNTO THE CHRIST. Thus the internal evidence in our text reveals beyond any shadow of a doubt that within the scope of the "all things" subdued unto Christ and delivered up to the Father are ALL LIVING BEINGS other than God Himself. None can contradict this fact but those so bound in the darkness of error that they no longer care what the Word of God says - they will fight to the end for their man-made traditions!

http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html

[Stan]

Please understand.... people do not read when people copy and paste copius text.

[Stan]

Roger, are you the one who used to advertise in Newspapers across canada about Hell Fire not being forever?