Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[John317]

WHAT IS THE GOAL?

One who is familiar with the passages which declare that it is "in" Abram and "in" his seed that all nations shall be blessed (Gal.3:8; cp Gen.12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14), would naturally assume that Paul is speaking along similar lines here in 1 Corinthians 15:22, using the instrumental "in" in a parallel way. Let us note as well that it is that which in principle is "the blessing of Abraham," which comes to the nations "in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:14). Therefore, the words here, "in Christ Jesus," must be understood in an instrumental (i.e., in a by-means-of) sense. Thus they speak of Christ as the One Who is God's Chief Instrument.

What does the NT mean when it refers to believers as "in Christ"?

For instance, in these verses:

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38-39

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Cor. 1:2

To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus...

Galatians 3:26

for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Galatians 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

[John317]

John 3:17>

For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him.

This verse tells us that God is the Savior of all men.

Notice that the verse says "may be saved," not will be saved.

Whether people will be saved depends on their choice. Some people don't want to be saved. God won't force them to be saved.

Consider John 3:16--

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This verse teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon one's belief or faith in Christ. Notice, again, that it doesn't say that everyone will be saved. For one thing, many people don't have faith in Christ.

Actually, when you study this verse, it is obvious that at least some people will perish, or NOT have eternal life.

Jesus came here to save all people; that is, to provide everyone with the opportunity to be saved; he didn't come here in order to compel people to be saved.

You say that Christ is the Savior of all men.

That is true, in the sense that all men owe their lives to Christ, and it is also true in the sense that Christ died in order to give every man the opportunity to be saved. But it does not mean that all humans will eventually live eternally with God and Christ. John 3: 16 alone makes that obvious.

For instance, there's absolutely no evidence that the people who died in the Flood or in Sodom will be saved in God's eternal kingdom.

[rodgertutt]

#174 - WHAT IS TRUTH? ABSOLUTE AND RELATIVE – Don Bast

“It has taken me a long time to unlearn the harmful instruction received over many years of indoctrination. It is God’s word alone that is the trustworthy source of truth. The good news of the glory of our happy God (1Tim. 1:11) will expose the error and set us free from the spiritual bondage of man’s creeds.

At the present time salvation is enjoyed only by those who believe; the balance of mankind will be saved at the consummation. A savior is one who actually saves. God is the savior of all mankind, not just the ‘potential’ savior. When the truth concerning the eons displaces the error about eternity, judgment and grace are seen to work harmoniously together till each reaches its predestined goal. All the threats of punishment to follow the judgment of the wicked can be accepted at their full, dreadful value without doing violence to our innate sense of justice, and without denying the predictions of a final victory of grace.

Someday the entire creation itself shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God, and is groaning and travailing, even now, in anticipation. We ourselves also, who have the first fruit of the spirit, we also are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body. For to expectation were we saved (Rom. 8:21-24).

Whatever trials and troubles come our way we are assured that it is not a sign of God’s anger or even displeasure. The bond of love we share with God through His Son will never be broken. His desire to please us and be with us never changes. The love of God in our hearts is our steadfast anchor through all the storms of life.”

[dialoguewithus]

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

John 3:17>

For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him.

This verse tells us that God is the Savior of all men.

Notice that the verse says "may be saved," not will be saved.

Whether people will be saved depends on their choice. Some people don't want to be saved. God won't force them to be saved.

Consider John 3:16--

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This verse teaches that salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon one's belief or faith in Christ. Notice, again, that it doesn't say that everyone will be saved. For one thing, many people don't have faith in Christ.

Actually, when you study this verse, it is obvious that at least some people will perish, or NOT have eternal life.

Jesus came here to save all people; that is, to provide everyone with the opportunity to be saved; he didn't come here in order to compel people to be saved.

You say that Christ is the Savior of all men.

That is true, in the sense that all men owe their lives to Christ, and it is also true in the sense that Christ died in order to give every man the opportunity to be saved. But it does not mean that all humans will eventually live eternally with God and Christ. John 3: 16 alone makes that obvious.

For instance, there's absolutely no evidence that the people who died in the Flood or in Sodom will be saved in God's eternal kingdom.

My bad, John317- the verse in question is 1 Tim. 4:10, which reflects the fact of the election of some for a special salvation in the oncoming two eons.

As for John 3:17, here's the interlinear http://interlinearbible.org/john/3-17.htm

"may be saved" or "might be saved" is the subjunctive; it depends on the rest of the verse, that is, on God's having sent Christ into the world for that purpose. I would compare this to Luke 19:10, where Christ came to seek and to save the lost/ destroyed (apollumi).

Salvation during this life IS conditional, but the conditions depend not upon us, but upon God. 2 Thes. 2:13.

We are GRACED in the beloved; it is not dependent upon us. Eph. 1:5, 6: “in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will, for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved”. Paul says, “Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening…Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?” Ro. 9:18, 21. So, God has chosen to divide humanity into two main groups, and that division will exist until the consummation, when He will become All in all.

[dialoguewithus]

Apollumi

There are two elements one needs to determine the meaning of a word which has been important over a long period of time: 1. The original meaning of the root word from which it is derived, so far as we are able to determine. 2. The history of the word as it passes from one generation to another. Other languages, social pressures, or one important person's or an institution's variant use of the word whose definition sticks with that word.

When we go back to the earliest uses of the word "apollumi," "apolleia" and their cognates, we find the words very indistinguishable from each other. We find the word in Homer where the "slayers and the slain" were "perishing from the world," but they reappear in Hades as persons capable of sorrow, joy and the ability to think. (Iliad 24:725) "We were 'undone' by their wisdom," says Odysseus. (Od. 10:27) According to Professor Plumtree, he knows of no passages in the earliest uses of these words which would mean destruction of conscious existence. (The Spirits in Prison, E.H. Plumtree) Searching the Greek Old Testament called the Septuagint, we find exactly the same usage of these words that we find in the New Testament. Below are examples of how these words were used in the Biblical sense.

Those who teach "eternal death" or "annihilation" believe the Greek words translated "destroy," "perish," "loss," mean cessation or end of life with no hope of recovery at a later time. The original words used in the Greek New Testament are: the verb "apollumi," and the noun, "apolleia." The verb "apollumi" is translated as follows in the King James Version: perish (33 times), destroy (46 times), lose (42 times), be lost (5 times), lost (4 times), bemarred (1 time), die (1 time), for a total of 92 times. The noun "apolleia" is translated as follows in the King James Version: perdition (8 times), destruction (5 times), waste (2 times), damnable (1 time), damnation (1 time), to die (1 time), perish (1 time), pernicious way (1 time), for a total of 40 times.

It is important that Christians understand the meaning of these two Greek words. An improper understanding of these words will result in an inaccurate faith in the destiny of the unbelievers and an inaccurate understanding of God's plan and love. To apply these words to the final destiny of the unbelievers will result in the denial of many scriptures that do refer to the ultimate plan of God's love. I recommend that you check the following scriptures with your concordances. It is not practical for me to quote over 110 verses. Therefore, I will quote only those passages used by those who are teaching that these words mean "destruction with no future resurrection to immortality."

First of all, let me state that I believe the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures were inspired by God. I believe the Creator allowed imperfect man to add his imperfections into Bible translations. When we look at the apostles and prophets, we quickly notice they were far from perfect, and yet were still mightily used. We see Peter, years after he received the Holy Spirit, play the hypocrite when being around gentiles. Paul had to rebuke him to his face. We read Paul saying, "I, not the Lord, say . . ." We find this in the scriptures in 1 Corinthians 7:12. I believe the Creator left us with imperfect English translations that we might rely on the Holy Spirit first. When one puts the scriptures above being lead by the Spirit, religious rigor mortus quickly sets in. The letter of the law produces death apart from the Holy Spirit quickening to us. This is true whether it is the Old Testament or New Testament. If one's witness in this world does not go past the Written Word, it will only be a witness to religious death . . . not life.

A snippet from Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):

One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory By Gary Amirault

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

[dialoguewithus]

Once you realize that John 3:17 is a statement that stands on its own as 100% true and is 100% corroborated and explained in detail by many other plain statements in Scripture, you can then read John 3:16 and realize that it cannot possibly change the meaning of John 3:17. Jesus made both statements clearly as 100% true, without negating, qualifying or “adjusting” either one.

Of course there will be people who try to explain away John 3:17 by claiming that verse 16 changes the meaning of verse 17 – in other words, they claim that although God and Jesus wanted and intended to save the whole world (verse 17), they will fail at that goal because only certain people who believe will end up being saved (verse 16).

People who make this claim are missing three massively important things:

1. In verse 16 Jesus did not say that the penalty for not believing is eternal damnation and the reward for believing now is eternal life. He said that the penalty for not believing is death and the reward for believing now is eonian (pertaining to an age or ages) life. (“Eternal” is a blatant mistranslation; for example see how “eon” is used in 2 Cor. 4:4 and you will see it cannot possibly mean “eternal” or “forever”).

The very fact that Jesus used the phrase “eonian life” in John 3:16 to describe the reward of those who believe, tells us that He is talking about those who believe in Him before the next two eons – the kingdom of God. In John 3:16 Jesus was talking about those who would have faith in Him now in this current age, so as to obtain life in “the kingdom of God” (the next two ages of life on earth, the millennium and the New Jerusalem age) and so as to avoid being dead during those two ages. Of course, those who do not believe in Christ now will be dead during those two ages and will not enjoy a part in the “kingdom of God” (Christ’s reign on earth, see Acts 1:6-7 & Rev. 19:11-20:6). (See Part 1 of this article to learn why Jesus was constantly warning the Israelites living 2,000 years ago about “not perishing” at the beginning of His earthly reign.)

Bottom line, John 3:16 says nothing about eternity or eternal destiny; it is only about having faith now so as to take part in the next two ages of life on earth (“the kingdom of God”, “not perishing” but being alive during those two ages).

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

[rodgertutt]

#181 – From a letter by John Henderson to Dr. Joseph Priestly (eighteenth century)

“God hath declared that His will is that all will be saved; therefore, the doctrine which forges a contrary will, falsifies supreme unchangeable truth.

Let this be the comfort of every humble soul, that it hath pleased God to reconcile all to Himself.”

[dialoguewithus]

You will notice that the universal reconciliation view of Scripture recognizes God as far more powerful, and satan and humanity as far weaker, than any other view of Scripture. In other words, in the universal reconciliation view, God knows what He’s doing, He knew what He was doing before He brought us into existence, He had a good plan for all of us before He brought us into existence, He is perfectly capable of convincing His creations of His wisdom through the use of several thousand years of allowing humanity to experience the consequences of operating apart from His design, He is perfectly capable of carrying His plan out to perfection, and He will do so right on schedule.

All other views of God – eternal punishment, annihilation, etc., make God into a frustratingly incompetent deity who cannot seem to convince most of His own creations that He is smarter than they are. In the universal reconciliation view God simply spends a few thousand years letting His intelligent creations try out ways other than His ways so they can see how stupid other ways are compared to His ways…and then He reconciles all to Himself right on schedule, just as He planned from the beginning of time.

So we do not have to try to explain away the plain meaning of Jesus’ statements in John 3:17 and 12:32, or negate or qualify them in any way. We can simply hear them and understand them as we would with anything else communicated with the same type of language and phraseology. Jesus clearly stated His intention to draw all men to Himself and save the whole world. These statements by the Son of God, taken to mean what they plainly say, match up perfectly with Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 4:10:

“…the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.”

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

[rodgertutt]

A question for the partialists: Why won't God save all; is He unable, or is He unwilling? Please explain.

They probably think He is unwilling.

BUT GRACE OVERWHELMS

What I perceive to be a basic issue.

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% “provided” by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is a basic difference between ANers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control, some sooner, the rest later.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram

CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE

Biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html

"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.

And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.

When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.

This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

IMO, sooner or later, all ANers are going to learn that they started to trust in Jesus as their Saviour ONLY because God laid hold on them by His sovereign grace and made Jesus "choice" in their heart.

[dialoguewithus]

This is not to say that our efforts are not essential or that there will be nothing for us to do since it is God Who saves us from our failings. To the contrary, God graciously saves us by causing us to work, “training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon” Titus 2:11,12. But our efforts are merely a product; they are the means through which God saves us. We contribute nothing.

It is not a question of our discipline and volition, but of pride and self-reliance concerning our discipline and volition, of boasting in the flesh instead of glorying in the transforming power of God. As long as we continue to see ourselves, in the final sense, as the key to anything, we will remain proud, antagonistic to “the grace of God in truth” Col. 1:6.

It is one thing to conceive of ourselves, in a dutiful sense and relatively speaking, as “cooperating” with the Lord Jesus, as He leads us into paths of better service. It is quite another, however, proudly to fancy ourselves to be so utterly independent of the Supreme Deity Himself, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, that even He is at a loss to change our will or walk without our help.

Luke 6:32-35 shows us what God's grace (thanks) is; He is gracious to the wicked, which means sinners like we all were when He was gracious to us. It's not that we have to preach so they can be saved, otherwise we're responsible for their "eternal damnation", and they have to receive the message (if we happen to present it to them), or else they will be eternally damned. Salvation is not based on human actions, but on divine actions. He chooses who to save and when, and at that moment, that soul is saved. And He will save all, as He has clearly said He will do.

We believe the message we heard, and we preach because we are so commanded, but God doesn't depend upon us to save ourselves, nor does He depend upon our conveying the message, to save others. He is the only Sovereign, and He so arranges EVERYTHING that each will be saved. Free will and chance are myths which have completely twisted the mindset of many Christians.

[dialoguewithus]

Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story…that’s why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!

3. Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.

We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.

To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.

If I said to my kids, “Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie,” I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet “hell mindset” Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan/Catholic-inherited ideas.

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

[dialoguewithus]

WHAT IS ACHIEVED IN CHRIST?

For the reasons I have rehearsed earlier in this exposition, we may be certain that the only race in view in these texts is the human race. In both passages (Romans 5:18,19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22), and in each case, both in that which comes to be through Adam and in that which is achieved through Christ, all mankind are affected. The condemnation of death and dying which befall all mankind through the disobedience of the one man, Adam, is put in parallel to vivification and life's justifying which God grants to all mankind through the obedience of the One, Jesus Christ. Even as the one apportionment, thus also the other. One is the work of Adam; the other is the work of Christ. Both Adam and Christ affect all the rest.

In these matters of justification and vivification, which form the heart of true soteriology and eschatology, neither our sins nor our virtues have any place whatever. All is due to Christ. Nonetheless, since orthodoxy, in its Arminian form, cannot abide that salvation is truly in grace and through the unaided work of Christ, and, in its Calvinistic form, cannot believe that Christ, salvifically, died for all, orthodoxy simply has no room for the truth.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/resurr.html

[rodgertutt]

#183 – MISCELLANEOUS MAXIMS AND THOUGHTS – William Matthews

"I discovered there are plain arguments from reason and Scripture against that presumptuous doctrine of endless punishment, and I am now cheered with the rational, Scriptural, and as I think, glorious doctrine of the punishment of Divine justice being eventually subservient to a universal purification and fitness for heavenly habitations.”

[dialoguewithus]

Language gymnastics

Let me start by asking you a simple question: How can a word have one meaning in the first part of a sentence and the opposite meaning in the second part of the sentence?

If I as a communicator change the fundamental definition of a word within the same sentence without telling you…I am an agent of confusion, not a communicator!

Dear friends, no word ever changes definitions to the opposite of its own meaning within the same sentence. This is a common sense rule of language that helps us understand each other. There may be a rare instance where the context makes it clear that the word has a slightly different meaning in two parts of a sentence because the word is commonly used in two different ways (e.g. “I’m working on my multiplication table at the kitchen table”), but even in those cases the word’s core definition (“table” means “a flat surface”) does not change.

Now let’s look at a verse where Francis Chan tries to tell us that a word changes to an opposite definition in the middle of the sentence in the Bible:

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” – 1 Cor. 15:22

In interpreting 1 Corinthians 15:22, Francis Chan claims that the word “all” means one thing in the first part of the sentence (“all humans”) and the opposite in the second part of the sentence (“all humans except for most humans” – which obviously no longer fits the definition of “all”). This is impossible. The word “all” only has one meaning in both English and Greek: “each and every one of the items or persons in question included”. The word “all” in both English and Greek is not like the word “table” that has the same core meaning (flat surface) but can be used to refer to different types of flat surfaces. The word “all” is only used one way in both English and Greek: to refer to every one of a group of things or people.

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

[Lysimachus]

"All" just means that all men have been offered the gift of salvation. The whole human race has been accepted in the beloved. But now every single one of those humans must make a decision to partake of the salvation benefits in that "all". Salvation has been offered to every human being. All men are accepted, "IN" Christ Jesus. In other words, if every single human were to accept Christ, every single one would be saved. But not all will choose to partake of that legal justification.

It's really that simple.

No need to dance between the raindrops and try to pretend that other scriptures do not qualify what this "all" means. The majority will be lost because they chose to not partake of Christ's death to save "all" men.

[dialoguewithus]

Are there “conditions” to salvation?

We hear on every hand about “conditions” of salvation: theology loudly proclaims that man’s salvation rests entirely on himself (“You must make a choice.”); that there are certain rules to be complied with in order to be saved; that God has done what He could, made man’s salvation possible; and if man will repent and do many other things he will be saved; otherwise, not.

This colossal error roots itself in a misapprehension of salvation, and of God’s work. The work of God, as has been shown, is to conform man to the image of God’s Son. This is the task that God proposed to Himself, and He alone is responsible for its attainment.

And now the question arises, What is salvation? The Scriptures answer that salvation is life - - life from the dead. The Bible represents man in Adam as dead, having “no life” in him. When we speak here of “life,” we mean physical existence; yet Scripture does not recognize mere physical existence as life.

After his transgression Adam had physical existence as much as before; but, he was dead unto God. Our Lords’ saying, “Let the dead bury the dead,” means that those bearing the corpse were as dead as the corpse itself. That saying illustrates precisely man’s condition before God: physically he is active; spiritually, he is dead. Hence the mission of Christ was to bring life to the world: “. . . My Father is giving you Bread out of heaven, the true, for the Bread of God is He Who is descending out of heaven and giving life to the world” (John 6:33).

Fallen man is not only guilty, needing justification, or sinful, needing cleansing; he is dead, needing life, and anything short of that is vain, futile. Salvation, then, is life for a dead race. The Scriptures bristle with this truth: it is the great central truth of the Word - - Christ our life, not merely our wisdom, redemption, propitiation, or mediation. All this is true and blessed, yet it falls short of the fullness of His mission. He comes to bring life; He is our life, as He Himself declares: ‘I am the resurrection and the life.”

Salvation is the consummation of creation, the impartation of life to a dead race, thus bringing them finally to His image; and this work depends solely on God; it is not conditional, for if it were it would be contingent, in the sense of uncertain; but that is inconceivable. We cannot allow the thought that God’s creative work is contingent, or that He would commence a work and not bring it to a worthy finish.

In a word, the truth on this point is this: all that man does has to do with his training, development, instruction; his final salvation – his entrance into life – in no sense or degree depends on what he does. The end is fixed and settled in the immutable purpose of God, and all will ultimately be vivified in Christ, as surely and unconditionally as all have died in Adam. (1 Cor 15:22)

The misconceptions that many entertain on this subject arise from their religious training, and not from the teaching of the Bible. In current evangelical theology salvation is conceived of as nothing more than escape from the penalty of sin – (supposedly) the scorching fires of hell. In order to effect this escape, man must do certain things, thereby securing to his own credit the merit that properly accrues alone to Christ. Add to this the ideas in vogue investing man with power to persistently resist His Maker, so that in vain God expends upon him all the resources of infinite mercy, wisdom, and power. Add to these errors, and you have a groundwork of falsehood broad enough to build up almost any amount of tradition, superstition, and absurdity.

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/spiritual/home_study/gods_purpose.htm

Lysimachus, salvation is life from the dead. If you choose to believe in "self-resurrection", I choose to believe in one Lifegiver.

[dialoguewithus]

As the Bible repeats multiple times, “Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord.”

Many Christians try to explain away the many plain statements in Scripture about the eventual universal reconciliation of mankind by saying, “Yeah, but other Scripture verses say that only those who have faith will be saved.” In other words, they claim that the “salvation of all mankind” verses are negated by other verses that talk about “the salvation of those who have faith”.

The problem with this claim is that you cannot use one plain statement in Scripture to negate another; you must use one plain statement in Scripture to explain and corroborate another.

There are way too many “salvation of all mankind” statements in Scripture that are stated on their own without any qualifiers and make perfect sense exactly as they are stated (1 Cor. 15:20-28, 1 Tim. 4:10, Jn. 12:32, Col. 1:20, Eph. 1:10), to allow us to discard them or negate them with other Scriptures. They are plain statements that match up perfectly with the rest of Scripture. There is no need to negate them. The only reason some people try to negate these statements is because they don’t match up with preconceived ideas about hell.

Even when plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind are found right next to plain statements about “those who have faith” or some people receiving salvation earlier than everyone else, these two types of statements do not contradict or negate each other. I will give you a perfect example of this in a moment, but first you need to realize that the only reason “salvation of all” statements seem to contradict “salvation of those who have faith” statements in the modern Christian’s mind is because the modern Christian falsely assumes that now is the only chance for anyone to be saved. If now (in this current age) is the only chance for anyone to believe in Christ, then Scripture is lying when it says, “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord”.

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

Plus, the partialists have to try to explain away Jn. 12:32; 1:9, 29; and Titus 2:11. What will happen to the hundreds of millions of babies who have died? When will they be enlightened? What will happen to the hundreds of millions of adults who have died without hearing of the one true God? When does the saving grace of God make its advent to them?

[dialoguewithus]

7.6 million children died in 2010 before their fifth birthday. www.globalissues.org

WHO puts it, “approximately 10.5 million children under 5 years of age still die every year in the world” http://www.who.int/whr/2003/chapter1/en/index2.html

If we multiply 7.6 million children by, say, 2,000, we get a grand total of 15,200 million child deaths. This is more than twice the total population of earth in 2012. Roughly 75% of fertilized ova do not implant, and are discharged from the body. For those who consider these to be human souls, these ova represent, let’s say, an additional 30,000 million human beings who have yet to hear the message of salvation. Since John 1:9 tells us plainly that Jesus is the light Who enlightens every human being, my question is this: When are all these souls to be enlightened? In other words, when does the saving grace of God make its advent to each of these souls for whom Christ died? Titus 2:11.

[rodgertutt]

#184 – CHRIST GLORIFIED IN THE SALVATION AND RESTORATION OF ALL MANKIND – Francis Leicester

“But the Scripture which crowns all, and the last which I shall bring into proof, is Revelation 5:13. Here all creation is at Christ’s feet, and that not with tears in their eyes, or petitions in their hands, not with crying or supplications or weeping because things were hidden and kept secret; but with joy in their hearts, and praises in their mouths; with melody on their lips, and hallelujahs on their tongues; with looks and countenances full of satisfaction and delight; and their faces, instead of gathering blackness, turning into paleness, or being covered with shame and confusion (as once was the case with some of them) they all now shine as the sun, replete with light, life and love, full of ecstasy and rapture. And that because the book written within and on the backside, and sealed with seven seals, is now opened and unsealed, and all things revealed and explained: their own cases particularly unfolded to their view, with all the ways and means their loving Saviour took to bring them to the situation they are now in, with other miracles of grace and love.

Where then there is universal praise and thanksgiving, universal harmony and love, and both heaven and earth sounding and resounding acclamations of joy and peace, there must be universal salvation.”

[dialoguewithus]

Are you looking for a faith that boldly proclaims God's unfailing love for all people? A faith that accepts Jesus as Savior and holds him up as someone who shows us the heart of the Creator, as someone everyone can follow with joy and integrity -- and yet a faith that does not use fear of eternal hell [or eternal death] as a stick to force you into the fold?

Are you searching for a faith that is based on the premise that in the end there will be no one left behind -- a faith that through this blessed hope can truly break down barriers and bring people together in a spirit of joy and "good tidings to all"?

There is such a faith, and you have found it! It is called Christian Universalism. This positive and hopeful understanding of the Gospel is not something new but was in fact a prevailing belief of the Church for many years after Jesus.

http://www.christianuniversalist.org/

[dialoguewithus]

John 12:32 – A Study

Jesus said, “And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.” Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying. –verse 33. Christ was “exalted out of the earth”, on the pole or cross, suffering the death of the tree, which brought God’s curse upon Him: “Christ reclaims us from the curse of the law, becoming a curse for our sakes, for it is written, Accursed is everyone hanging on a pole,” –Gal. 3:13. Acts 5:30- “Now the God of our fathers rouses Jesus, on Whom you lay hands, hanging Him on a pole.” So, “…Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and… He was entombed, and… He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures” 1 Cor. 15:3, 4. Therefore, we know for a fact that Christ will be drawing all to Himself. How can believers know what the word, “draw” in John 12:32 means? The best method is to examine how the word is used in other New Testament verses. “Draw” is the Greek, “[h]elk u’ o”; this word appears in six verses- Jn. 6:44; 12:32; 18:10; 21:6, 11; Acts 16:19. The variant, “[h]elk’o” appears in Acts 21:30 and James 2:6. It would be good for the Bible student to decide if these words mean "to cause to move in a given direction", or rather, “to woo”. It would also be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God?

[Lysimachus]

I would propose this thread gets locked. You guys have repeated your points enough times.

[dialoguewithus]

So you don't agree, Lysimachus, with the SDA teaching in favor of freedom of religion? Or are our arguments too powerful to ignore?

[dialoguewithus]

In Cuba the media is "locked"; only one view can be publicly expressed, and that ad infinitum. Theology was "locked" during the "Holy Inquisition". Science was "locked" during the Dark Ages.

[rodgertutt]

So you don't agree, Lysimachus, with the SDA teaching in favor of freedom of religion? Or are our arguments too powerful to ignore?

#185 – Anna Letitia Barbuald, widow of Rev. Rochemont Barbuald wrote

“Rochemont’s favorite doctrine was the final salvation of all the human race. He preached many sermons on this doctrine, which he defended both in the pulpit and in conversation with zeal and enthusiasm, which his congregation and his friends cannot but well remember.”

Anna further commented, “I think it would be desirable to separate from religion that idea of gloom, which in this country (England in the eighteenth century) has but too generally accompanied it.