Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[Guest]

I see that you've changed the title of the thread Rodger. Are we shifting gears? :)

[rodgertutt]

So, we could say that John 6:44 is a parallel passage to Jn. 12:32; no one can come to Christ unless God draw Him, and all will be drawn. The other six verses where the word appears show us that the word “draw” means “to bring” or “to move”. Now we know that God will be reconciled with all, on the earth or in the heavens. Col. 1:20. So when God draws us, He engages our will. He makes Christ choice to us; therefore we choose Christ and give Him praise. Phil. 2:9-11. While God is especially the Savior of those who now believe, over whom the second death holds no power, He is, equally, the Savior of all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11. Therefore, as we read in 1 Cor. 15:20-28, death will be abolished for all, and God will be All in all.

So we can count on the fact that no one will permanently remain dead, for death will be abolished for all, and the second death should not terrorize us; it will play its role in God’s plan, but it is a passing role, not an unending one.

#149 – THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore

“The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things ‘out of darkness into His marvelous light,’ proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness.”

[Guest]

Christ would never be “choice” for anyone, without direct divine intervention- Ro. 3. And unless God makes Christ choice in our heart, we absolutely WILL NOT choose Him.

[rodgertutt]

I see that you've changed the title of the thread Rodger. Are we shifting gears?

OOPS, my bad

I blame it on my 73 year old faulty memory.

Gotta soon go visit my 99 year old dad in his nursing home.

Will be back to post more later,

[rodgertutt]

#150 – POEM BY HOSEA BALLOU (1771-1852)

“In God’s eternity

There shall a day arise,

When all the race of man shall be

With Jesus in the skies.

As night before the rays

Of morning flees away,

Sin shall retire before the blaze

Of God’s eternal day.

As music fills the grove

When stormy clouds are past,

Sweet anthems of redeeming love

Shall all employ at last.

Redeemed from death and sin

Shall Adam’s numerous race,

A ceaseless song of praise begin,

And shout redeeming grace.”

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

"He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." (Isaiah 66:3,4)[

[dialoguewithus]

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

Christ would never be “choice” for anyone, without direct divine intervention- Ro. 3. And unless God makes Christ choice in our heart, we absolutely WILL NOT choose Him.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Quote:

Either we believe in predictive prophecy, or we beleve in free will; they can’t both be true.

Nonsense. God knows the future, so why can He not tell us what is coming in advance. God doesn't force you to do anything, but He still knows what you are going to do.

Do you believe that all the prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ were wrong? If so, then how can you believe and know that He is the savior?

What about the prophecies of Daniel, that foretold the four nations that would rule the world?

Do you believe that most or some of the Bible is just a lie?

I'm afraid I'm not following you, RLH.

I believe all scripture is inspired by God, and, in the original language, as it was originally written, is true. Now we know some things are more applicable to us than others. And we know some manuscripts have been corrupted, and some things are literal, while others aren't.

I believe the prophecies you mentioned. I've never said that God forces anyone to do anything. And if God knows something will occur, then it must occur. But if free will were true, I could decide to go to the grocery store tomorrow, or decide not to; it would depend only upon myself. The fact that God knows today whether or not I will go tomorrow proves that free will is mythical. I will serve the LORD, not because I choose to on my own, for that is impossible- Ro. 3:11-18; I choose to serve Him because He has first chosen me. Acts 13:48. God bless!

[dialoguewithus]

I sense that there's somehow the concept in some minds that Rodger and I don't think people are able to make choices. Of course we are. What we're not capable of is outsmarting God; He knows the end from the beginning, for all hearts are in His hands (symbolic language, for God is spirit). Rev. 17:17; Ro 9:14-24.

[dialoguewithus]

An excerpt:

"I am not calling for public discourse to emulate the etiquette of an afternoon tea; the issues are too complex, the need for vigorous pursuit of truth too important, the claims of those marginalized by society too pressing to wish other than a tradition of robust public discussion.

What I am calling for is more responsible treatment of our opponents, even when our disagreements run deep. That means retaining a healthy appreciation of our own fallibility in judging others and the ends they endorse. That means according our disputants the respect and consideration with which we desire to be treated.

There is nothing weak or submissive, nothing traitorous or dishonorable, in showing decency to others. On the contrary, morality requires it"

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v7n3/demonizing.html

[Woody]

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v7n3/demonizing.html

Hey Stan - the Jesuits have actually arrived.

[dialoguewithus]

RLH: "God doesn't force you to do anything, but He still knows what you are going to do."

I agree completely with you on this. God knows what you and I will do because He knows the causes of our actions; actions with no cause would be unpredictable. God didn't force Judas to betray Christ, but He knew He would, and so he had to do so. Judas had to make the choices he made. The fact that Christ predicted he would betray Him doesn't mean that my future actions are uncertain simply because I don't appear by name in scripture. Your future actions and mine are certain, although from our viewpoint there is much uncertainty; we see darkly what God sees clearly.

[phkrause]

So are you saying that Judas will be saved? Were did he repent?

[dialoguewithus]

Yes, God is the Savior of all mankind. I don't think Judas has repented yet. God knows.

[rodgertutt]

#151 – In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson quotes Thomas Belsham (1750-1829).

We see the triumph of God’s benevolence in restoring the dead transgressor to life; in visiting him with suffering in exact proportion to the greatness of his offences; and finally, in his ultimate purification from moral stain, and his restoration to virtue, to happiness, and to God.

This clears up at once all the difficulties of divine dispensations, and the belief of it fills the pious and contemplative mind with unspeakable satisfaction and delight.”

[phkrause]

Yes, God is the Savior of all mankind. I don't think Judas has repented yet. God knows.

What do you man by "yet?" Why is he alive somewhere? If we read the Bible correctly he died before he could repent. I also believe that Sister White tells us that he did not have a repented heart.

[rodgertutt]

#152 – In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of John Prior Estlin (1747-1817).

It certainly argues a greater degree of benevolence in the Governor of the world, after the punishment of His creatures, to restore them to His favor, than either to preserve them in misery, or to blot them out of existence.

The firm belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration, has afforded much consolation to myself during a large portion of my life; has rendered advanced years placid and serene, and enables me to contemplate death itself, notwithstanding its gloomy appearance, as one of the most essential blessings of the whole plan of Providence.

I would as a friend, advise everyone to take this subject into his most serious consideration. I would wish him to experience during the remainder of his life, all the happiness which results from the full persuasion of this delightful doctrine. I pray to God that others may experience that perpetual sunshine of the mind, that joy in the divine administration, that serenity through life, and that cheering prospect in the hour of death, which the belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration does so manifestly inspire.”

[dialoguewithus]

I don't believe Judas has repented yet, nor do I believe he's alive.

[John317]

Yes, God is the Savior of all mankind. I don't think Judas has repented yet. God knows.

Your statement makes it appear that the Bible teaches people can repent after this life. The Bible doesn't teach such a thing.

If Judas was going to repent, the time for him to do it was before he hanged himself.

Here's what the Bible says about Judas:

Matthew 26:24

The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

John 17:12

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

NOTE: The Son of God Himself declared that Judas is "lost" and He called him, "the son of destruction."

Jesus also said Judas "is a devil":

John 6:70, 71--

Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."

He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

There is absolutely no evidence that Judas will be saved. In fact, the Scriptures specifically and categorically deny that Judas will be saved.

Acts 1:25

.... Judas turned aside to go to his own place.

Where do you suppose is "his own place"?

Jesus said that it would be better if Judas had never been born. He wouldn't have said that if Judas will eventually be saved in God's kingdom.

The Bible is clear that salvation is determined by what we do in this life, not after the resurrection.

That is the lesson taught in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man: there will be no change in our spiritual condition after the first death. What we do, we must do in this life, not afterwards. Afterwards will be too late.

Now-- not after we die-- is the day of salvation.

2 Cor. 6:2

For he says,

"In a favorable time I listened to you,

and in a day of salvation I have helped you."

Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

[rodgertutt]

See why it is a mistranslation.

Is Today the Only Day of Salvation? - Ken Allen

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html

(copy and paste the link into your address bar)

Note the last line in the above link.

There is a special salvation for believers.

GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES

“In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God ‘is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,’ and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the ‘all mankind.’ God’s will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.

My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

‘To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!’ ”

A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY

“I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God.

The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (unquote)

This is his comment regarding Matthew 25:46.

The same God Who fixed the great gulf will remove it in due time.

[rodgertutt]

#154 – FOOL OF QUALITY – Henry Brooke

“And thus, on the grand and final consummation, when every will shall be subdued to the will of good to all, our Jesus will take in hand the resigned chordage of our hearts. He will tune them as so many instruments, and will touch them with the finger of His own divine feelings. Then shall the wisdom, the might, the goodness of our God, become the wisdom, might and goodness of all His intelligent creatures.

The happiness of each shall multiply and overflow in the wishes and participation of the happiness of all. The universe shall begin to sound with the song of congratulation, and all voices shall break forth in an eternal hallelujah of praise transcending praise, and glory transcending glory to God and the Lamb.”

[dialoguewithus]

Jesus definitely did not say that it would be better if Judas had never been born.

Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!” It would have been ideal (pleasing and peaceful) for Jesus (the Son of Mankind/Him) if Judas (that man) had not been born. It was nevertheless necessary for him to be born and commit his sin of betrayal in order for scripture to be fulfilled. See Genesis 6:6; John 18:11; Matt. 26:39. (While many Bible versions mistranslate Matt.26:24, some do put the correct rendering in the margin.) Concerning Judas’ title, “son of destruction”, John 17:12, the Greek word is apollumi, often translated, perish or lose. This word is used in the New Testament about 90 times. Many people, animals, and even things are described as being “lost”, “destroyed” or “perished”. It is unwise to assume the word describes “eternal damnation”. “For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost (apollumi).” Luke 19:10. The book All in All, by A. E. Knoch, is very informative on this and some other important topics, such as the eons, the 3 classes of vivification, “hell”, and “annihilation”. http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=

[rodgertutt]

Here is why the case of Judas does not disprove UR.

By Louis Abbott

"Let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.

The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."

That is the understanding that the syntax requires.

Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."

Regarding the confusion of the different versions, Louis Abbott adds the following note:

"Notice how the following versions translates this clause:

The ASV, 1901 margin, "Good were it for him if that man had not been born;"

Rotherham's version, "Well for him if that man had not been born;"

Murphy's edition of the Douay Version and the New Testament translated from the Latin Vulgate, 1898,

"It were better for him, if that man had not been born;"

(the following three versions are quoted in the original spelling)

Wiclif, 1380, "It were good to hym if thilke man hadde not been borun;"

Tyndale, 1534, "Good were it for him if that man had never bene borne;"

Rheims, 1582, "it vvere good for him, if that man had not been borne."

and repeating the conclusion

The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."

IMO that is the understanding that the syntax requires.

Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."

But even if it did refer to Judas, consider this.

A snippet from

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Scroll down and click on

BETTER NEVER BEEN BORN

[rodgertutt]

#155 – OBSERVATIONS ON MAN – Dr. David Hartley

“I thank God that He has at last brought me to a lively sense of His infinite goodness and mercy to all, and that I now see it in all His works, and in every page of His Word. It has taught me to love every man and to rejoice in the happiness which our Heavenly Father intends for all; and has dispersed all the gloomy and melancholy thoughts.

How long, or how much God will punish wicked men, He has nowhere said, and therefore I cannot tell. But this I am sure of, that in judgment He will remember mercy; that He chastens only because He loves, and His tender mercies are over all His works. God will conduct the wicked through all the afflictions which He thinks fit to lay upon them for their good, with infinite tenderness and compassion.”

[dialoguewithus]

THE END OF AIONIAN THINGS.

The Jews have lost their excellency; Aaron and his sons have ceased from their priesthood; the mosaic system is superseded by Christianity; the Jews no longer possess Canaan; David and his house have lost the throne of Israel; the Jewish temple is destroyed, and Jerusalem no longer the holy city; the servants who were to be bondmen forever, are all free from their masters; Gehazi is cured of his leprosy; the stones are removed from Jordan, and the smoke of Idumea no longer rises; the righteous do not possess the land promised them forever; some of the hills and mountains have fallen, and the tooth of Time will one day gnaw the last of them into dust; the fire has expired from the Jewish altar; Jonah has escaped his imprisonment; all these and numerous other eternal, everlasting things--things that were to last forever, and to which the various aionion words are applied--have now ended, and if these hundreds of instances must denote limited duration why should the few times in which punishments are spoken of have any other meaning? Even if endless duration were the intrinsic meaning of the word, all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited. And surely in the very few times in which it is connected with punishment it must have a similar meaning. For who administers this punishment? Not a monster, not an infinite devil, but a God of love and mercy; and the same common sense that would forbid us to give the word the meaning of endless duration, were that its literal meaning, when we see it applied to what we know has ended, would forbid us to give it that meaning when applied to the dealings of an Infinite Father with an erring and beloved child.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#75

[dialoguewithus]

Regarding Judas, I feel the case was similar to that of Gen. 6:6. God was grieved by those things but we couldn't say in an absolute sense that God wished He had never created mankind. He knows the end from the beginning, and if He had preferred mankind not to exist, He wouldn't have created us.