Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[dialoguewithus]

1 Corinthians 15

20 Christ was not the first one to be roused from the dead. The prophets, and the Lord Himself, recalled some to life before He Himself suffered death. But He is the first One to be made alive beyond the power of death. All the others were roused to die again. He is the First fruit of those who are vivified, and die no more.

21 Death's entrance and exit are both through a man. Adam and Christ are the channels, respectively, through which death and resurrection reach all mankind.

22 The words "even as'' mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told, "in Christ, shall all be vivified." This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (lThes.4:16; lCor.l5:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in "those who are Christ's," must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling.

25 The reign of Christ is so beneficent, it brings mankind to such a state of perfection, that all further need of the restraints of government vanishes. Rule implies insubordination, and is unnecessary where there is perfect subjection. Rule is a temporary expedient to cope with evil. When evil is banished rule also retires. The effects of evil for mankind are concentrated in death. When the universe has been purged of all other evil, then death itself becomes inoperative and yields up its victims. Not till then is it true that all are made alive in Christ.

27 The universality of Christ's subjection of all under His feet is evident from the one exception—God Himself.

28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all.

-A snippet from http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC07_FirstCorinthians.htm

[rodgertutt]

#137 – CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor

I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.

Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe.”

[dialoguewithus]

God’s Preference

Proverbs 8:10 (CLV)

‘Take in my admonition, and do not prefer silver, And take knowledge rather than choice, fine gold."

Here we have a definition of “prefer” in the form of a parallel passage; it means to choose one thing rather than another. The dictionary says “to like one thing better than another”.

The Greek [h]air e’ o / [h]air e t iz’ o appears in four places. The first is

Matthew 12:18 (CLV)

“Lo, My Boy Whom I prefer! My Beloved, in Whom My soul delights! I shall be placing My spirit on Him, And He shall be reporting judging to the nations."

It also appears in Phil. 1:22 and Heb. 11:25. The final use is in

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (CLV)

“Now we ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, seeing that God prefers you from the beginning for salvation, in holiness of the spirit and faith in the truth,”

What does it mean that God preferred them from the beginning for salvation? First, they were preferred above others; it’s impossible to prefer all; there must be a “lifting” of one above another, as the root of the Greek word indicates. Paul mentions this dichotomy in Romans chapter 9, and assures us that “it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the merciful.” –Verse 16. Verse 23 informs us that the vessels of mercy are made ready before for glory. Romans 8:28-30 further describes God’s working in those He chooses to enjoy life during the oncoming eons. Therefore, we read in Acts 13:48, “Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian.” You might ask, “By whom were they set for eonian life?” God leaves no doubt in that regard; It is God’s choice in grace. The purpose of God remains as the choice of Him who is calling- Ro. 9:11. See also Ro. 11:5; Eph. 1:4; John 12:37-40.

This separation, or election, which God makes, is concerned with eonian salvation, during the present wicked eon and in the two oncoming, glorious eons. God chooses final and unending salvation for all universally after the eons have run their course. John 12:32; Ro. 11:32; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 4:9-11.

[dialoguewithus]

WILL IGNORANT SLAVES BE SAVED?

BIBLE — YES: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9). In Jn. 12:32, Jesus said, “And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.”

DID PAUL LEARN THE GOSPEL FROM MEN IN THE CHURCH?

BIBLE — NO: "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not."

“Now from those reputed to be somewhat- what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)- for to me those of repute submitted nothing. But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision- only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do.” (Gal. 1:11-12, 16-20; 2:6-10).

WAS PAUL ONE OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES?

BIBLE — NO: “…"Men! Brethren! Fulfilled must be the scripture in which the holy spirit said before through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who becomes the guide of those apprehending Jesus,” “And they nominate two, Joseph, called Bar-Sabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And praying, they say, "Thou, Lord, Knower of all hearts, indicate one whom Thou choosest, out of these two to take the place of this dispensation and apostleship, from which Judas transgressed, to be gone into his own place. And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles.” (Acts 1:16, 23-26)

Matthew 19:28 (CLV)

“Yet Jesus said to them, "Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow Me, in the renascence whenever the Son of Mankind should be seated on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Romans 11:13 (CLV)

“Now to you am I saying, to the nations, in as much as, indeed, then, I am the apostle of the nations, I am glorifying my dispensation,”

1 Timothy 2:7 (CLV)

“for which I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the nations in knowledge and truth.”

2 Timothy 1:11 (CLV)

“of which I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher of the nations.”

[rodgertutt]

#139 – BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard

“The word translated ‘everlasting’ or ‘eternal’ expresses time, and not eternity.

Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.

How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?

Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning.”

[dialoguewithus]

Interesting on early church history:

http://chriscarrollsmith.blogspot.com/2009/06/universalism-among-early-church-fathers.html

[rodgertutt]

Interesting on early church history:

http://chriscarrollsmith.blogspot.com/2009/06/universalism-among-early-church-fathers.html

Did you notice my post at the end of that thread's comments?

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#140 – IN MEMORIUM – Alfred Tennyson

“Oh, yes, we trust that somehow good

Will be the final goal of ill,

To pangs of nature, sins of will,

Defects of doubt, and taints of blood.

That nothing walks with aimless feet,

That not one life shall be destroyed,

Or cast as rubbish to the void,

When God hath made the pile complete:

Behold! We know not anything;

I can but trust that good shall fall

At last – far off – at last to all,

And every Winter change to Spring.”

[dialoguewithus]

Sure did, Rodger. You're quite the student.

To my understanding, Matt.25:31ff is referring to the second coming. See Mt. 24:30; 16:27; 19:28. I would equate the fire with the chastening -verses 41, 46. I wouldn't equate this fire with the lake of fire. What do you think?

Also, I see in Dan. 2:34, 35 that Christ's kingdom, which will be Israel's, will be on earth beginning around the time of Christ's second coming. Sound right?

[rodgertutt]

Sure did, Rodger. You're quite the student.

To my understanding, Matt.25:31ff is referring to the second coming. See Mt. 24:30; 16:27; 19:28. I would equate the fire with the chastening -verses 41, 46. I wouldn't equate this fire with the lake of fire. What do you think?

Also, I see in Dan. 2:34, 35 that Christ's kingdom, which will be Israel's, will be on earth beginning around the time of Christ's second coming. Sound right?

I'm wondering if it makes any difference about the fire.

Is it not the same source of fire for the same purpose?

You are probably right about the Daniel passage.

[dialoguewithus]

Both fires would be from God, but they could vary somewhat. The eonian chastening is to bring about repentance and that fire could be symbolic. The lake of fire, as far as I know, is literal, and as the Bible says concerning humans only, is the second death. I don't think they'll be alive in the fire, unlike Satan and his two cohorts. I do think that the resurrection of the unsaved twice will have an effect similar to when Thomas saw and touched the wounds of Christ, inspiring faith.

I do agree that some details of future events are difficult to understand and maybe no two people see everything the same, but the important thing is God will work out everything for good. It is true though that the lake of fire will already exist about when this eon ends and the next begins. Rev. 19:21. But I don't think that's the chastening fire for people, for the lake of fire is the second death for humans. As for Matt. 25, the just enter eonian life at the second coming (vs. 46) and they receive the allotment of the kingdom also at the second coming (verse 34), or so I see things.

[rodgertutt]

Both fires would be from God, but they could vary somewhat. The eonian chastening is to bring about repentance and that fire could be symbolic. The lake of fire, as far as I know, is literal, and as the Bible says concerning humans only, is the second death. I don't think they'll be alive in the fire, unlike Satan and his two cohorts. I do think that the resurrection of the unsaved twice will have an effect similar to when Thomas saw and touched the wounds of Christ, inspiring faith.

I do agree that some details of future events are difficult to understand and maybe no two people see everything the same, but the important thing is God will work out everything for good. It is true though that the lake of fire will already exist about when this eon ends and the next begins. Rev. 19:21. But I don't think that's the chastening fire for people, for the lake of fire is the second death for humans. As for Matt. 25, the just enter eonian life at the second coming (vs. 46) and they receive the allotment of the kingdom also at the second coming (verse 34), or so I see things.

Thanks for that explanation.

Sounds right to me.

#141 – ONE RELIGION; MANY CREEDS – Ross Winans

“Our belief is that man, being governed and trained through time, a good and happy result must ensue to each individual.

God has ordained that every man shall sooner or later, recognize and appreciate His blessings. Nothing else is consistent with His determinate will. God is a God of infinite goodness, not of vengeance; to be loved; to be worshiped for love’s sake, not through fear of everlasting punishment. We believe that every man will eventually love Him, and strive more and more to serve Him.”

[rodgertutt]

Both fires would be from God, but they could vary somewhat. The eonian chastening is to bring about repentance and that fire could be symbolic. The lake of fire, as far as I know, is literal, and as the Bible says concerning humans only, is the second death. I don't think they'll be alive in the fire, unlike Satan and his two cohorts. I do think that the resurrection of the unsaved twice will have an effect similar to when Thomas saw and touched the wounds of Christ, inspiring faith.

I do agree that some details of future events are difficult to understand and maybe no two people see everything the same, but the important thing is God will work out everything for good. It is true though that the lake of fire will already exist about when this eon ends and the next begins. Rev. 19:21. But I don't think that's the chastening fire for people, for the lake of fire is the second death for humans. As for Matt. 25, the just enter eonian life at the second coming (vs. 46) and they receive the allotment of the kingdom also at the second coming (verse 34), or so I see things.

I think Jim Coram agees with you.

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM

“The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God’s declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.

While the ‘injury’ (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death.”

[rodgertutt]

#143 – THE UNITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT – John A.D. Mauricq

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

[dialoguewithus]

1 Timothy 1:15 (CLV)

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I

"There but for the grace of God go I."

It's funny how many people say things like, "If I were so- and-so, I wouldn't do that; I would do this instead." Yet we all do as we do because of causes, even if, for the most part, we are unconscious of said causes. The fact of the matter is that we would do exactly what they do, if we were them. And we're no better than they are, regardless of our perhaps having a better upbringing or having been raised in a faith we might consider more in accordance with truth, etc. And when we read concerning Judas, we see that just because we choose to do something, that doesn't prove we could have chosen differently. Jn. 13:18-21. And here again, as you mentioned earlier, Rodger, Satan played his role by fortifying Judas to do his evil deed, that the scriptures might be fulfilled, not to mention Jesus's proclamation.

[rodgertutt]

This might be a good time to post my random thoughts on the human will. :-)

I'm a theistic determinist. Let's discuss it.

My collection of random thoughts on the human will.

There is some repetition for emphasis.

THERE IS NO “CHANCE” THAT WE CAN CHOOSE ANYTHING ELSE

Our choices are not made because we had a “chance” to make, or not to make them.

I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.

Theologically this is called God’s decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God’s preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

The kind of fatalism that I reject is the kind that says that things happen no matter what we do.

The truth is that things happen because of what we do, even though what we choose to do is caused by the reasons why we want to choose a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice at any give point in time.

A few seconds before, we might not have wanted it the MOST.

A few seconds later, we might not have wanted it the MOST.

It may even be true that most of the time we would have wanted to choose something else the MOST.

But at that point in time when we actually make a choice, it's because we want it the MOST, and, at that point in time there is no “chance” that we could have chosen anything else.

As a theistic determinist I believe that nothing happens by “chance” and that God intends to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone, than had it not occurred. That includes the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as kolasis aionion (age during corrective chastisement) that everyone who needs it will experience. Then, when the existence of evil and suffering has served God’s purpose, He will eradicate both of them from our existence.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL by A.P. Adams is good on this subject!

http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html

As far as salvation is concerned I don’t believe it happens because we are given a “chance.”

As a universalist I believe the Bible teaches that the first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be saved first. Then all of the non-elect will be saved later.

The following two links are good on this subject.

REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS

God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All

http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html

and

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE

The eons of the Bible with Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

The idea that it wouldn't be "right" for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.

Everything we do is the product of a cause, that cause being the reasons why we prefer one choice the MOST, instead of a different choice.

The fact that you chose it proves that you preferred it at least slightly more than some other choice, or you would not have chosen it.

Your reasons for choosing what you choose are the cause of your making any choice. It is not possible to make a different choice from what your combined reasonings motivate you to prefer the MOST at any point in time.

Nothing God does is "meaningless." When we look back from the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time, everyone will agree that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.

It is not even possible to choose any differently (after due deliberation or instantly) than the combined reasonings persuade us to prefer that choice the MOST at that particular moment in time, so much so that we actually do choose it.

In other words, the only "free" will we have is to choose what our combined reasonings persuade us in the choice that we prefer the MOST at that particular point in time. It is not even possible that any other choice could have been made than that one.

It is not even possible to not choose what that reason persuades us is the choice we want to make the MOST at any particular moment in time.

A man devises his ways by using all the info at his disposal.

The end result will be the only "way" he could have devised.

Considering all combined influences in devising that particular way, there simply was no other way that he could have devised at that particular point in time.

We will work out our salvation in response to the combined influences that cause us to work it out in a particular way, the only way that we could possibly work it out. No other way could even be possible.

We are individuals who always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings persuade us is the choice that we prefer the MOST. The fact that we actually choose it proves that we prefer it the MOST.

No other choice is even possible.

The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.

In the case of humans the cause is the combined reasonings why we prefer one choice the MOST instead of a different one.

It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer MOST.

The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it MOST even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.

During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose. The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.

If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose. That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.

In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.

Our not wanting to reap the consequences becomes part of the reasoning process that causes us to choose to change our ways. The "not wanting" becomes so strong that it is no longer possible to choose to reap the consequences.

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, or not, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.

That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.

The idea that it is wrong for God to hold us accountable for choices that we cannot help making is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is what we want to choose the MOST.

Like I said before, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

That is why I call myself a theistic determinist.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

Scripturally or otherwise, it has, and always will be true, that we always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings and feelings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

The fact that we choose some certain thing instead of something else, proves that we preferred that certain thing the MOST, even though we may try to claim that we really preferred something else the most.

I agree with Albert Einstein, who said, “I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

Albert Einstein, IDEAS AND OPINIONS, pp.8,39; New York: Crown Publishers, 1954

Instead of God being a "gentleman," I worship a God Who will, sooner or later, successfully influence the will of every fallen creature for their own good, so they will WANT what He wants for them, which does not include sustaining them alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering or annihilating them.

I call myself a theistic determinist because I believe in a God Who has decided that the fate of every fallen creature will be salvation from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

As Martin Zender puts it

“We all have wills, they are just not free.

Then why do we even exist, we might ask? Why do our wills exist? Is God playing chess with Himself? Why does He even need us? Why does He bother letting us think that we’re free?

I think it is in this perceived realm of freedom that we live and learn. God has given us the gift of NOT FEELING HIS CONTROL, and it is this gift that allows us to struggle with decisions, suffer for mistakes, and revel in the overcoming of obstacles.

It is this gift that allows us to turn to Him with tears both of sorrow and of joy.

I think the idea is to bring us in humble adoration to His feet. If it takes a sovereign God to assure that we come to this blessed place, then let’s let Him be sovereign—at the same time reveling in our perceived (but not actual) freedom.” (end quote)

I think that negative experiences work into us the motivation to choose differently in the future.

The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.

Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.

Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul’s will “free.”

But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that “the sin that dwelt within him” (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul’s will in his war with his sinful nature.

I found it helpful what Ray Prinzing said.

“Don’t accept condemnation for not being able to “work out” what God has not yet worked into you.”

Without exception, every person comes to the point of actually choosing what the combination of their reasonings and feelings tell them they prefer the MOST. When that choice has been decided upon, it is impossible to avoid making that particular choice at that split second in time.

In other words, when it comes down to actually making a choice, either after due deliberation, or instantly, we will always choose what we have decided that we prefer the MOST.

Here's the way that James Coram puts it.

"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.”

The commitment of Jesus to do the will of His Father far outweighed His desire to escape the suffering He saw ahead of Him.

He definitely made the choice that He preferred the MOST.

In fact, that is the only choice that any of us can make, i.e. the choice that we prefer the MOST.

Everyone will ALWAYS choose what they both prefer and desire the MOST.

Here's the way that James Coram puts it.

"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

Albert Einstein put it this way “I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

My own quote.

"After due deliberation we always make the choice that our combined reasonings and feelings (i.e. preferences and desires) convince us is the choice that we prefer and desire the MOST.

The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer and desire it the MOST, or we would have made some other choice instead."

If we choose "the tough thing" it is ONLY because we prefer that choice.

Our reasonings and feelings combine to influence us to prefer that choice the MOST instead of a choice that is not as "tough."

I'll try putting it a different way.

Everything has to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.

What we prefer MOST, and what we determine is the best course of action from the information available are one and the same thing.

I find it completely relaxing to go through life believing that I am controlled by the strings in God's loving hands!

We do share one thing in common with puppets, and that is causality.

Everything we do is the product of a cause.

And that cause is the combined reasonings and feelings that persuade us to prefer a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice.

It is not even possible to choose what we do not prefer the MOST.

As a UR, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross.

That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

POST SCRIPT:

Limited free will is an oxymoron - a contradiction in terms.

Limited means constrained.

Free means without constraint.

[BobRyan]

Your posting style appears to be of the "spamming" nature.

Why not discuss your views "instead"??

[rodgertutt]

Your posting style appears to be of the "spamming" nature.

Why not discuss your views "instead"??

Those in fact ARE my views, with the observation of a few others thrown in for emphasis.

Like I said at the beginning of my post, "let's discuss it."

[BobRyan]

I too have a bazillion pages of my own observations, texts, comments that could be fire hosed onto a thread if I so choose. I am guessing that a few others here have amassed that level of material as well.

But that is not a discussion.

in Christ,

Bob

[rodgertutt]

I too have a bazillion pages of my own observations, texts, comments that could be fire hosed onto a thread if I so choose. I am guessing that a few others here have amassed that level of material as well.

But that is not a discussion.

in Christ,

Bob

It is the beginning of a discussion if someone says something about anything that I have said in that post.

Why not give it a try and see what happens?

[dialoguewithus]

I might reword a few things, Rodger, but I feel you are spot on.

Some more thoughts:

Christ would never be “choice” for anyone, without direct divine intervention- Ro. 3. And unless God makes Christ choice in our heart, we absolutely WILL NOT choose Him. Therefore, it is entirely His doing when anyone is saved, and there is no scriptural or logical justification as to why He wouldn’t eventually grant faith to all.

Another point is that our choices are limited by what we know or believe to be possible. In other words, our circumstances (over which we often have absolutely no control) are often determinative as to what choices we make.

Either we believe in predictive prophecy, or we beleve in free will; they can’t both be true.

People are sometimes so "wedded" to a philosophy such as free will, that they will absolutely deny the fact that Judas had to betray Christ, regardless of verses such as John 13:18, 19.

[dialoguewithus]

As Paul said, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all" (Tit. 2:11 NRSV).

Now imagine that this is what you believed. Imagine yourself with a deep and abiding faith in God's plan of salvation for all people, believing that everyone in the world is your brother or sister in God's family and that He loves each and every one of us with a parental love -- a love that can never fail. Imagine that you could see the face of Christ reflected in the face of every person you meet, and that someday that person will be with you in heaven, worthy of great honor and praise, cleansed of all sin and patterned after Christ, your Lord.

If you really believed this, just imagine how happy you would feel, and what a blessing you could be to others. Every mistake or problem in life could be seen as an opportunity for growth, not a chance to put someone down or count someone out -- or to give up and count yourself out. God is a God of second chances, as many chances as we need to get it right. He is a God who never gives up on anyone -- and that includes you. It also includes the homeless man on the street, the woman in the mental ward, the kid born in the ghetto who sought to escape through drugs and petty crime, and even the hardened criminal in maximum-security prison. It includes the ones who, burdened by injustice and anguish and the harshness they have known, have denied God, denied any real meaning in life, denied human dignity, and denied their own divine nature within because they were never told it was there. It includes the billions of people who have lived and died without knowing God and repenting of their sins. They, too, shall someday walk beside us in the Kingdom. No power in the universe, neither sin nor death, can prevent God from saving our souls, according to His magnificent and triumphant plan. We may struggle to remain in the hell of disbelief and rebellion, but eventually God will win us over and we will become who we were meant to be: mature children and heirs of our heavenly Father.

A snippet from Christian Universalism:

God's Good News For All People

By Eric Stetson http://www.christian-universalism.com/bookexcerpts.html#nohellparty

[rodgertutt]

#146 – LIFE – Thomas Guthrie

“St. John uses a very broad expression. ‘Jesus Christ,’ he says, ‘is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our only, but also for the sins of the whole world.’ ‘The whole world. Ah,’ some would say, ‘that is dangerous language.’ It is God’s language – John speaking as he was moved by the Holy Spirit. It throws a zone of mercy around the world. Perish the thought that would narrow it by a hand’s breadth.”

[dialoguewithus]

Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8. It's interesting from the interlinear that the words used are • proskunêseis -- verb; 2nd person singular future of <proskuneô> worship -- you shall worship AND

• latreuseis -- verb; 2nd person singular future of <latreuô> serve -- shall you serve

This tends to support my long-held impression that these verses are (besides the obvious meaning), also prophetic, but I may be mistaken.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ntgol-4-R.html

[dialoguewithus]

The fear of death

Could even some believers be among those “who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage”? Hebrews 2:15. Romans 8:15-21: “For you did not get slavery's spirit to fear again, but you got the spirit of sonship, in which we are crying, "Abba, Father!" The spirit itself is testifying together with our spirit that we are children of God. Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ's allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also. For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” What is our allotment? Ro. 8:28-30: “Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.” So our destiny is secure. Because we have the “expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian”, we need not fear “because of the expectation reserved for you in the heavens, which you hear before in the word of truth of the evangel”. Titus 1:2; Col. 1:5. The creation itself shall be freed from the slavery of corruption. Corruption is virtually synonymous with death. 1 Cor. 15:42-44; 50-53. In Rev. 21:8 we read, apparently concerning the eon of the new heaven and new earth, “Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false- their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” Should we fear that we or any of our friends will permanently have a part in the second death? Jesus promised in Jn. 12:32, “And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.” The “if” is the “if of argument”, not of doubt. John explains in verse 33, “Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying.” We can determine the meaning of the word draw by examining its usage in the Bible. This word, or a closely related Greek word, appears in seven other places:

John 6:44 (CLV)

No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day.

John 18:10 (CLV)

Simon Peter, then, having a sword, draws it, and hits the chief priest's slave and strikes off his right ear. Now the name of the slave was Malchus.

John 21:6 (CLV)

Now He said to them, “Cast the net on the right parts of the ship and you will be finding.” They cast, then, and they no longer were strong enough to draw it, for the multitude of fishes.

John 21:11 (CLV)

Simon Peter, then, went up and draws the net to the land, distended with a hundred and fifty-three large fishes. And, being so many, the net is not rent.

Acts 16:19 (CLV)

Now her masters, perceiving that the expectation of their income was come out, getting hold of Paul and Silas, draw them into the market to the magistrates,

Acts 21:30 (CLV)

Besides, stirred was the whole city, and there came to be a running together of the people. And getting hold of Paul, they drew him outside of the sanctuary, and immediately the doors are locked.

James 2:6 (CLV)

Yet you dishonor the poor one. Are not the rich tyrannizing over you? And they are drawing you to tribunals.

So, we could say that John 6:44 is a parallel passage to Jn. 12:32; no one can come to Christ unless God draw Him, and all will be drawn. The other six verses where the word appears show us that the word “draw” means “to bring” or “to move”. Now we know that God will be reconciled with all, on the earth or in the heavens. Col. 1:20. So when God draws us, He engages our will. He makes Christ choice to us; therefore we choose Christ and give Him praise. Phil. 2:9-11. While God is especially the Savior of those who now believe, over whom the second death holds no power, He is, equally, the Savior of all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11. Therefore, as we read in 1 Cor. 15:20-28, death will be abolished for all, and God will be All in all. So we can count on the fact that no one will permanently remain dead, for death will be abolished for all, and the second death should not terrorize us; it will play its role in God’s plan, but it is a passing role, not an unending one.

[rodgertutt]

Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8. It's interesting from the interlinear that the words used are • proskunêseis -- verb; 2nd person singular future of <proskuneô> worship -- you shall worship AND

• latreuseis -- verb; 2nd person singular future of <latreuô> serve -- shall you serve

This tends to support my long-held impression that these verses are (besides the obvious meaning), also prophetic, but I may be mistaken.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ntgol-4-R.html

I first heard that point of view from Ray Prinzing, my earthly hero and mentor. I believe it is true.

APPROPRIATE SNIPPETS

“God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.”

Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.

“Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!”

RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby

http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html