Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[Lysimachus]

And lo and behold, the two Mister "Explain Away the Scriptures" are still at it again!

[rodgertutt]

Regarding Judas, I feel the case was similar to that of Gen. 6:6. God was grieved by those things but we couldn't say in an absolute sense that God wished He had never created mankind. He knows the end from the beginning, and if He had preferred mankind not to exist, He wouldn't have created us.

#156 - In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Olympiodorus (A.D. 550)

“Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons. The soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. The soul is punished for an eonian period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment its eon.”

[dialoguewithus]

Hi, Lysimachus

When you have time, maybe you could explain 1 Cor. 15:20-28 for us. I'd like to know your point of view on each of these verses.

[Lysimachus]

If you were to read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 without any other scriptures, then yes, you could come to a universalist conclusion from those passages. But that's not how I treat the scriptures. I take in the TOTALITY of the word of God.

In this case, my commentary below on 1 Cor 15:20-28 will be based on other scriptures:

15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It says "IN Christ shall all be made alive". Meaning, ALL who are in Christ. It doesn't say ALL are going to choose to be IN Christ!

15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The wicked will be put under his feet at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Scriptures are very plain. Don't try to explain them away!

It's called "SEMANTIC JUGGLERY!"

[rodgertutt]

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM

“The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God’s declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.

While the ‘injury’ (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death.”

[dialoguewithus]

Here are my thoughts, Lysimachus

1 Corinthians 15

20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing." 21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead." 22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"

20- Verse 12: “…how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?”

21- Death came to mankind through Adam; resurrection from death comes through Christ.

22- Just as, in Adam, all mankind is mortal, in like manner, in Christ all mankind will be immortal. Paul’s language is exact: he doesn’t say all die in Adam, for not all will die. 1 Thes. 4:17. Neither does Paul say all will be resurrected, for not all will be; what he says is that all will be made immortal.

23- Yet each will be vivified in his own class: first, Christ was vivified, when He rose to immortality; then the elect, who are vivified when Christ returns;

24- later, the consummation of vivification, when Christ gives up the kingdom to God, and when Christ nullifies all sovereignty and all authority and power, such as is described in Rev. 21:24.

25- because Christ must reign UNTIL He places all His enemies under His feet; then He will give up the kingdom to His Father- vs. 24.

26- Death will be the last enemy to be abolished, for it will still exist during the final eon –Rev. 21:8

27- Death is being abolished because God subjects all under Christ’s feet, except of course, for the Father Himself.

28- Now, once all are subjected to Christ, then Christ likewise will subject Himself to His Father, so that God may be All in all. This is the consummation of vivification. At that point, all are subject to God, all are reconciled to God (Col. 1:15-20), all acclaim Him (Phil. 2:9-11), and all are constituted just (Ro. 5:18, 19).

[dialoguewithus]

Here's the interlinear for 1 Corinthians 15:22

http://interlinearbible.org/1_corinthians/15-22.htm

The Greek reads "For as indeed in Adam all die so also in Christ all will be made alive."

To explain this away with “It says "IN Christ shall all be made alive". Meaning, ALL who are in Christ.” Is "SEMANTIC JUGGLERY!"

Respectfully yours, dwu

[dialoguewithus]

Notice the words "so also":

Just as all die in Adam (regardless of any choices they make or don't make)

SO ALSO

all are made immortal in Christ (regardless of any choices they make or don't make). That is to say, they no longer die.

Yes, our choices can influence when or how we might die,

and our choices (which God effects in us) determine whether we are among the elect who are saved during this life, or more accurately, Gods choice for each of us is then reflected in our choices either for or against Him during this life -Acts 13:48: Ro. 3:9-18,

NEVERTHELESS,

Whether or not we will be mortal (and we all are) and whether or not we will one day be immortal (and one day we all will be) does not in any way depend on our choices.

"As" in Adam, "so also" in Christ (the second Adam).

Peace!

[dialoguewithus]

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).

A.E. Saxby, in God in Redemption, gives us a wonderfully logical reason for rejecting the notion that God will condemn anyone to eternal damnation…, and rather proves that He has provided for the salvation of all mankind.

He says,

If a human act was effectual for ruin, how much more shall a Divine act be effectual for salvation?

How quickly we believers will latch on to some fragment of a verse, in a whole context, to prove a negative perception and then propagate it as truth, to the total exclusion of the whole context of the doctrine being presented.

Why do we so easily jump to conclude all men to condemnation, but find it so terribly difficult to accept with the same unabashedness the accompanying text which says that “the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life”?

How can anyone think that as the first Adam’s act could bring about the “ruin” of all of his descendants, that the second Adam’s act was nowhere near as efficacious to provide the remedy whereby all of those descendants would be rescued from such a penalty? It’s really quite an illogical act of mental gymnastics to interpret Romans 5 that way.

It is rather amazing that we never consider that as sin abounded in its effect on all of the first Adam’s posterity, God’s “grace did much more abound” (Romans 5:20).

Thus, if the first Adam’s act was so powerful as to affect the ruin of all of his future generations, how much less of an effect would God’s grace be through the redeeming act of the Second Adam, that even one of those offspring could be eternally lost forever to the loving grace of His Creator and Father?

It is too much to comprehend that we serve a God and Father so callous to the welfare of His creation, that He would allow any one of His dear creatures to go unprovided for in the eternal plan of His “great love wherewith He loved us.””

-A snippet from Bible Student’s Notebook, by André Sneidar

[rodgertutt]

#159 – THE MYSTERY OF GOD – Gerard Winstanley

“Christ Jesus will deliver all mankind out of bondage. This I see to be a truth by testimony of Scripture, as God is pleased to teach me. But this mystery of God is not to be done all at once, but in several dispensations, some whereof are past, some are in being, and some are yet to come. The whole creation of mankind, which is God’s work, shall be delivered from corruption, bondage, death, and pain. Mankind shall be by Christ reconciled to his Maker and be made one in spirit with Him; i.e. the curse shall be removed, and the power of it killed and consumed.

Truly this is according to the current of the whole Scriptures, that everyone shall be made of one heart and one spirit, i.e. that all shall be brought to obey the Father, walk humbly before Him, and live in peace and love in Him.

[dialoguewithus]

Colossians 3:

12 Put on, then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, pitiful compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, patience, 13 bearing with one another and dealing graciously among yourselves, if anyone should be having a complaint against any. According as the Lord also deals graciously with you, thus also you. 14 Now over all these put on love, which is the tie of maturity. 15 And let the peace of Christ be arbitrating in your hearts, for which you were called also in one body; and become thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ be making its home in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing yourselves; in psalms, in hymns, in spiritual songs, singing, with grace in your hearts to God. 17 And everything, whatsoever you may be doing, in word or in act, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God, the Father, through Him.

[dialoguewithus]

Got Wages?

1 Cor. 3:12-15~

Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work - what kind it is. If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire.

[dialoguewithus]

"Whether or not we will be mortal (and we all are) and whether or not we will one day be immortal (and one day we all will be) does not in any way depend on our choices."

"As" in Adam, "so also" in Christ (the second Adam)."

Yes, we will be reconciled when we are immortal. All are now justified; that's why Christ rose from death. Romans 4:25. All will reap what they sow. All people cast into the lake of fire will die there. So justice will have been accomplished. May I not play the role of Jonah, complaining about Nineveh's salvation, when God then chooses to reconcile and vivify all.

So my mention of "our choices" in regard to the salvation of all was probably not entirely accurate. What I should say is that mankind is not able to thwart the universality of God's purpose; He makes all mortal in Adam, and later makes all immortal in Christ. Of course we all make choices, and God will keep working with each soul until they choose Him, for nothing is impossible with Him. Matt. 19:25, 26.

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 1 Cor. 15:22. I would paraphrase this verse thus; "Just as, in Adam, all are mortal, in like manner, in Christ, all will be made immortal."

"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther’s letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg, 1522.)

John 1:9. [Christ] was the true light- which is enlightening every man (anthrōpon) - coming into the world.

anthrōpon- The Bible uses 444 (ánthrōpos) of a specific man, woman, or class (type, group) of people – i.e. mankind in general (inclusive of every man, woman and child)

http://concordances.org/greek/444.htm

http://interlinearbible.org/john/1-9.htm

[dialoguewithus]

While Christians have no problem seeing themselves “in Adam” when he sinned, many cannot receive the wonderful truth that we were also “in Adam” when he was clothed. But this is exactly what Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 15:22 when he says,

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The first part of Paul’s statement, (For as in Adam all die....), is almost universally agreed to by Christians. To deny the scriptures on this point is to deny the darkness that is clearly evident all around us. However, when it comes to the second part of Paul’s statement, (...so in Christ shall all be made alive), we refuse to see Adam as man’s representative, but instead see him only as an individual who could have either chosen or rejected God’s loving provision. In the former case (his sin), we see Adam as the representative for all of humanity, and yet in the latter case (his clothing), we see him as a lone man, solely responsible for his “eternal” destiny. This, my dear brothers and sisters, is a great travesty and has caused us to weaken the finality of God’s great plan.

When Jesus Christ took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” this was not just a cliché. Christ once and for all struck a deathblow to the sin that was passed onto humanity because of Adam’s disobedience. This is what the Bible terms as “the sin of the world.” Paul defines this sin in Romans, chapter five.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation… (Rom. 5:18a)

Adam’s sin cursed all of humanity. However, Paul completes the thought by adding,

…even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

(Rom. 5:18b)

What exactly does this mean? It means that the sin (and the subsequent death) that has caused mankind to be alienated from God has been rendered ineffective. This is so wonderfully stated by Paul when he declares to us, “Jesus is the Savior of all men.” (1 Tim. 4:10) Notice the present tense (“is”) that Paul uses here. Even though most men are not yet experiencing the benefits of that salvation, nevertheless, “Jesus is the Savior of all men.”

-A snippet from What happens to one happens to All

by Ken Eckerty http://www.savior-of-all.com/adam.html

[rodgertutt]

#161 – Thomas Whittemore wrote, “Entirely upon the ground of the Scriptures, according to the views he entertained of them, Jeremy White wrote a work in defense of the doctrine of universal salvation called

THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, OR A VINDICATION OF THE GOODNESS AND GRACE OF GOD, TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL.”

Thomas Whittemore continues, “Jeremy White believed that all are to be restored, and that we have the assurance of this truth in the character of God Who is love, to which His very anger is subservient, and that the Scriptures assure us of His complete abounding grace over all sin and all death.”

[doug yowell]

#161 – Thomas Whittemore wrote, “Entirely upon the ground of the Scriptures, according to the views he entertained of them, Jeremy White wrote a work in defense of the doctrine of universal salvation called

THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, OR A VINDICATION OF THE GOODNESS AND GRACE OF GOD, TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL.”

Is that a misspelling of Tom's last name?

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted By: rodgertutt

#161 – Thomas Whittemore wrote, “Entirely upon the ground of the Scriptures, according to the views he entertained of them, Jeremy White wrote a work in defense of the doctrine of universal salvation called

THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, OR A VINDICATION OF THE GOODNESS AND GRACE OF GOD, TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL.”

Thomas Whittemore continues, “Jeremy White believed that all are to be restored, and that we have the assurance of this truth in the character of God Who is love, to which His very anger is subservient, and that the Scriptures assure us of His complete abounding grace over all sin and all death.”

Is that a misspelling of Tom's last name?

Not according to Google

http://search.mywebsearch.com/mywebsearc...2b&tpr=hpsb

#163 – Sir Isaac Newton, commenting on Scriptures in the book of Revelation wrote

“The degree and duration of the torments of degenerate and anti-Christian people should be no other than would be approved of by those angels who had ever labored for their salvation, and the Lamb Who has redeemed them with His most precious blood.”

[dialoguewithus]

We often forget that God not only allows Satan and sin and evil, but that He also uses them. Again and again, when trouble stalks his path, a man turns back to the God he has despised. When his wife dies, or his children go wrong; when loss and disaster fall upon him, again and again he will seek the God he has neglected. Many of our men who fought in past wars found that danger and privation turned their minds toward God. Foxholes cure atheism, they say. Weeks on a lifeboat adrift in the ocean do something to a man, and he is often a very different person when he lands on shore again. That is not because God coerces the man, but because God brings upon him such experiences as change his attitudes and priorities. And God brings such experiences upon men, not in vindictive hatred, but in love. He is too wise to err, too loving to be unkind!

Some argue that because we affirm that the judgments of God are not eternal, but corrective, we teach a "hell redemption." We are accused of believing that hell can accomplish in a man what the mercy and blood of Jesus could not accomplish. Many years ago Charles G. Finney (and we respect his ministry) opposed the teaching of the ultimate salvation of all by ridicule. Finney was a master of the invective. He said that those who were saved after this "age of grace" ends would unceasingly sing, "Thanks be to the hell that saved us by our own suffering!" Just how much weight is there to that criticism? It is a marvelous truth that CHRIST ALONE can save! There is no other way! How we rejoice that it is so! But there is one thing that must be dealt with before any man can come to Christ and be saved. MAN'S REBELLION MUST BE REMOVED. His pride and self-confidence and stubborness and trust in things and pleasures that damn and lead away from God must be broken. And this is where judgment comes in. Judgment destroys the power of the carnal mind which blinds, which is enmity against God but judgment does not grant redemption. It only breaks rebellion! It breaks man's stubborn will! But redemption was purchased upon the cross.

It is a small matter for God to break the resistance of men. Men without God live like animals. They eat, sleep, entertain themselves, labor, but they are not in touch with God at all. He has no place in their thoughts nor in their lives. Finally man awakens. Like the old country preacher who was telling of the prodigal son. He said, "He took off his coat and spent that. Then he took off his vest and spent that. Then he took off his shirt, and when he took off his shirt, he came to his self." We come to ourselves in various ways! When the prodigal was feeding hogs in the "far country" he "came to himself," according to Jesus. Did he, then, have a "hogpen redemption?" Not at all! The hogpen didn't save him, but he did get some sense knocked into him there. It was there his willfulness and rebellion left him, but he was not saved until he got back to his Father. I have read about men in the foxholes on the battle front getting saved. Did they get a "war redemption?" Did the war save them? No! No! No! Men in the danger and horror of war often begin to think as they never thought before, but war does not save. At best, it can only awaken them, and turn men to the Christ they have ignored. And if they are saved at all it is because they call in all sincerity upon the Saviour who died for them on Calvary's cross.

-A snippet from THE PRODIGAL SON http://www.savior-of-all.com/lakeoffire.html

[rodgertutt]

#164 – THE PHILOSPHICAL PRINCIPLES OF NATURAL AND REVEALED RELIGION – Andrew Michael Ramsay

“Eternal Providence desires, wills and employs continually all the means necessary to lead intelligent creatures to ultimate and supreme happiness. Almighty Power, wisdom and love cannot be eternally frustrated in His absolute and ultimate designs: therefore, God will at last pardon and re-establish in happiness all lapsed beings.”

[dialoguewithus]

Psalms 72:18 (CLV)

Blessed be Yahweh, Elohim, the Elohim of Israel, Doing marvelous works by Himself alone

Jeremiah 32:17 (CLV)

`Ah, Lord Yahweh, lo, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power, and by Your stretched-out arm; there is nothing too wonderful for You:"

[rodgertutt]

#165 – From a letter to Dr. Phillip Doddridge from Henry J. Barker:

“It is so. We read it in the book of God, that word and truth and gospel of our salvation, that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Yes Doddridge, it is so. The fruit of our Redeemer’s sufferings and victory is the entire and eternal destruction of sin and death for everyone. And is it not a glorious destruction? A most blessed ruin? No enemy so formidable, no tyranny so bitter, no fetters so heavy and galling, no prison so dark and dismal, but they are vanquished and disarmed; the unerring dart is blunted and broken, the prison pulled down and razed. Our Lord is risen as the first fruits of them that slept.”

[dialoguewithus]

1 Corinthians 15:22 (ACV)

For as by Adam all die, so also by Christ all will be made alive.

What does the Greek word here for “make alive” mean? In Jn. 5:21 it is shown to differ from resurrection (for some will be roused during the oncoming eon without receiving immortality). In 1 Tim. 6:13 Paul repeats his assertion; all will be vivified. Jn. 6:63 certainly doesn’t support the contention that resurrection for judgment is vivification. Neither do any of the other uses of this word in the Bible; Ro. 4:17; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:36, 45; 1 Pt. 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:6; Ga. 3:21. Nor will all mankind be resurrected, for the saints living when Christ returns will be vivified, but will never be resurrected. Romans 5:19: “For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.” Through Adam’s disobedience, mankind was constituted sinners, which is to say, mortal. In like manner, through Christ’s obedience, mankind will be constituted just, which is to say, immortal. God promises to vivify all!

[dialoguewithus]

Jerome, c. 340 – 420 A.D.

“Although this vaguely hints at an end to punishment, Jerome himself admits,

“I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures.”

• Jerome, Commentary on Jonah

The best evidence of the full extent of belief in universal reconciliation can be determined by a question put to Basil of Ceasarea. The question was part of Basil’s Rules which became the basis of monastic rules of order even to the present day. Basil was a hermit but a great organizer. The full body of instructions he left for fellow monks was called the Rule of St. Basil. Within these instructions there were questions and answers. One question regarding eternal torment was,

“If one man shall be beaten with many, another with few stripes, how do some say there is no end of punishment?

[basil answers] “... this comes also from the devil’s plots that many men ... assign to themselves an end of punishment in order that they may sin more boldly.”

• Basil of Caesarea, The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp. 329-30

The “many men” (tous pollus ton anthropon) in Greek has a definite article before the adjective “many.” This means the translation is “the many men” or “most men.” Such is the understanding of Kelley in Early Christian Doctrines, p.483 and Texeront in History of Dogmas, p.197.

Origenist Controversy

A long-lasting dispute within the church called by historians the Origenist Controversy (“Origenism,” in Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church) began around the year 394 C.E. Several church leaders confronted Jerome, Rufinus, John (the Bishop of Jerusalem) and others, accusing them with promoting Origen’s “heresies.” The controversy originally centered around Origen’s doctrine of the salvation of Satan, not on universal reconciliation of all men. In Christian Alexandria the dispute broke out into riots breaking out between rival factions. According to Charles Bigg, even then the issue was not universal reconciliation,

“Even Epiphanius [bishop of Salamis] and Theolphilus [bishop of Alexandria] , the fierce antagonists of Originism, appear to have regarded this particular article with indifference, except insofar as it embraced fallen angels.”

• Bigg, The Christian Platonists of Alexandria, p. 274”

-An excerpt from The Recognition of Universal Reconciliation, By David Sielaff

http://www.askelm.com/news/n020820.htm

[rodgertutt]

#166 – THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – Paul Siegvolk

“As the centre of the whole Bible, whereat all its contents aim, is this, that by God in the beginning every thing was created very good; and that by Christ, the heavenly Wisdom, through Whom all things were created, all whatsoever is corrupted through sin, must at last be made good again. So may anyone whose eyes are opened to see clearly into this point, find a great many testimonies of this eternal truth, both in the books of the Old and New Testament.”

[Lysimachus]

*sneak peak*

*looks around*

*whoah!*

You guys really think we're still reading your stuff?